Instead of AAP, Honors classes starting in 3rd grade

[Anonymous]

Let's explore this thought since I keep seeing it on this forum.

No more AAP centers, no more LLIV. Instead, FCPS will do elementary school the same way as the middle school- with open enrollment for Honors classes.
No testing needs to be done in order to enroll for honors (maybe except Math?)

Let's say this starts in 3rd grade.

-How will this work?
-How will parents know if their 3rd graders are "capable" of the honors classes.
-What would the population look like? For example, if you had 100 3rd graders, how many of those will probably choose honors classes? (looks like the benchmark is 25% of that 100 go to AAP as it is now)
-What would an honors class in 3rd grade look like. What would the range in ability look like? Will there be differentiation in an honors class?
-Will the kids who are not enrolled in honors class feel inferior to the ones who aren't in honors class?
-Will the honors classes be watered down with kids who can't handle the depth and pace? Will parents get annoyed that their honors classes are being watered down by parents who push their kids into these honors classes?


Discuss

[Anonymous]

There is some merit to your ideas... but there are some flaws as well.

First, it's not 25% that are in AAP. The actual, factual stats are around 15%.

Second, not all ES have 25-30 kids who are ready and willing to do "honors" work. My kid's AAP center draws from 13 or so feeder schools. There are three classes of AAP. Certainly some of those feeder schools do not have a lot of AAP-ready kids. Of course, there might be more kids/parents willing to do an "honors" curriculum at the base school than those willing to ship their kids to the center. So, on the whole, schools like our base school probably could fill up an honors class even though about 10 students go to AAP center per grade. Other ES may not be so willing.

One thing you would lose in this scenario is the efficiencies gained by the teachers in a center school as well as the support the other AAP teachers give to each other. If there is only one class of honors per grade, then that teacher has to do everything. At the center school, it seems that the AAP teachers for each grade combine efforts in setting up the curriculum.

Students also lose the combined energy and shared interests of the other kids. Fewer parents to support the special after school activities and maybe not enough kids to support the Odyssey of the Mind team or Chess team or whatever.

On the whole, however, I would really like to have a level 4 or honor curriculum at our base school so that our lives would be easier.

I wonder if it might be worse for the non-honors kids in some way -- we often hear complaints on this board how awful the non-AAP kids feel at a center since they can see the AAP kids in their midst. Maybe these are just over-dramatic parents? I don't know. But, I wonder if the opposite approach might be good -- fully dedicated AAP centers? Only the AAP would attend them.

I know someone in another district (in DC metro) where the G/T kids are moved to a separate school starting in 2nd grade. So, it can work.

[Anonymous]

I disagree with your proposal but not in the way you might think. I think it would be best to restrict admission into AAP to a much narrower range of kids--say, fewer than the top 5% and then raise the expectations dramatically in both AAP and Gen Ed. At that point kids who are really struggling in Gen Ed should be provided with additional interventions to help them keep up.
Class sizes should be inversely proportional to the "level"--say, 40 to 50 kids in AAP, 25-30 in Gen Ed, and no more than fifteen or lower as necessary for kids requiring remedial help.

Of course none of this will ever happen, but I think it's worth a shot

--mom of AAP, Gen Ed and SE kids.

[Anonymous]

Honors is open to all - it is in middle school. No math testing is needed in middle school, and it should be the same in elementary school.

VA should be more like NY. Regents and non-regents. One is harder material for those going to college. The other is more business focused for house going into technical training or non-college related fields of work.

GE is basically a wash for any high-achieving child. Any parent who has a hard-working child with smarts is going to push for AAP.

[Anonymous]

Most students need a mix of regular and honors instruction and benefit from inclusion. It's also good for building community

[Anonymous]

GE is still a college prep diploma. No reason not to go to college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honors is open to all - it is in middle school. No math testing is needed in middle school, and it should be the same in elementary school.

VA should be more like NY. Regents and non-regents. One is harder material for those going to college. The other is more business focused for house going into technical training or non-college related fields of work.

GE is basically a wash for any high-achieving child. Any parent who has a hard-working child with smarts is going to push for AAP.

At our middle school, kids are placed in honors math based on testing. You have to qualify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I disagree with your proposal but not in the way you might think. I think it would be best to restrict admission into AAP to a much narrower range of kids--say, fewer than the top 5% and then raise the expectations dramatically in both AAP and Gen Ed. At that point kids who are really struggling in Gen Ed should be provided with additional interventions to help them keep up.
Class sizes should be inversely proportional to the "level"--say, 40 to 50 kids in AAP, 25-30 in Gen Ed, and no more than fifteen or lower as necessary for kids requiring remedial help.

Of course none of this will ever happen, but I think it's worth a shot

--mom of AAP, Gen Ed and SE kids.

No elementary student should be in a class of 40-50 students. Period.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I disagree with your proposal but not in the way you might think. I think it would be best to restrict admission into AAP to a much narrower range of kids--say, fewer than the top 5% and then raise the expectations dramatically in both AAP and Gen Ed. At that point kids who are really struggling in Gen Ed should be provided with additional interventions to help them keep up.
Class sizes should be inversely proportional to the "level"--say, 40 to 50 kids in AAP, 25-30 in Gen Ed, and no more than fifteen or lower as necessary for kids requiring remedial help.

Of course none of this will ever happen, but I think it's worth a shot

--mom of AAP, Gen Ed and SE kids.

No elementary student should be in a class of 40-50 students. Period.

What, you don't think 8 year olds in Fairfax County can handle the same number of classmates as seen in a college classroom?

[Anonymous]

OP, parent placing would be a big issue at the elementary level.

The schools would have to track within the classes because nearly all of the parents would insist upon the honors class whether or not their kids could handle it.

I think by sixth grade it could work, maybe fifth, but certainly not for third or fourth.

In elementary school it is more about the parents than the kids. Parents still consider homework and projects "OUR Project" or "WE worked all night on that homework assignment." Many elementary parents are too personally involved in their kids' work and grades to the point it becomes a personal affront to the. (The parents, not the kids) if the teacher does not recognize their kid's brilliance.

If it was open honors for elementary it should be teacher placement based off grades and testing, not parent placement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most students need a mix of regular and honors instruction and benefit from inclusion. It's also good for building community

Agree. If there was an open Honors system in elementary school, I would never be one of those parents who pushes their child to be in all Honors. For instance, my DC would absolutely need to be on grade level for math - no way would I push DC into a higher level math class because I know how much stress math causes DC. However, I'd definitely place DC in Honors level language arts, social studies, and science, because these are all strengths. Any responsible parent knows their child's strengths and weaknesses (though looking at the kids who are pushed into AAP, this isn't entirely evident).

As PP said, most students need a mix of both regular and Honors instruction - not all AAP or all Gen Ed, as it is now (with everything except math).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honors is open to all - it is in middle school. No math testing is needed in middle school, and it should be the same in elementary school.

VA should be more like NY. Regents and non-regents. One is harder material for those going to college. The other is more business focused for house going into technical training or non-college related fields of work.

GE is basically a wash for any high-achieving child. Any parent who has a hard-working child with smarts is going to push for AAP.

I had one child in AAP. Our second child is very bright and hard-working, but wasn't in-pool. We didn't push for AAP for this child because the whole system seems completely blown out of proportion - too many pushy parents, kids who think they're superior just because they got into AAP, and a whole lot of busy work. It would be great if Gen Ed was a more challenging curriculum, but after having one child go through AAP, we realized the AAP curriculum isn't what we had in mind (project after project isn't our idea of an "advanced curriculum"). We just decided to do a lot of supplementing at home and it's been working out great. In fact, I'd say this child has gotten a better, more focused education than the one who was in AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honors is open to all - it is in middle school. No math testing is needed in middle school, and it should be the same in elementary school.

VA should be more like NY. Regents and non-regents. One is harder material for those going to college. The other is more business focused for house going into technical training or non-college related fields of work.

GE is basically a wash for any high-achieving child. Any parent who has a hard-working child with smarts is going to push for AAP.

I had one child in AAP. Our second child is very bright and hard-working, but wasn't in-pool. We didn't push for AAP for this child because the whole system seems completely blown out of proportion - too many pushy parents, kids who think they're superior just because they got into AAP, and a whole lot of busy work. It would be great if Gen Ed was a more challenging curriculum, but after having one child go through AAP, we realized the AAP curriculum isn't what we had in mind (project after project isn't our idea of an "advanced curriculum"). We just decided to do a lot of supplementing at home and it's been working out great. In fact, I'd say this child has gotten a better, more focused education than the one who was in AAP.

My kid just finished with AAP, third through eighth grades. Maybe it was because he qualified for the program seven years back, but at that time there was no discussion among parents of who was or wasn't in the pool, no agonizing over GBRS or all these other alphabet soup tests, no attempts (that I ever heard from any parent) to re-test kids or appeal and appeal to get them into the pool, etc. I never heard of all that stuff until I looked on DCUM a few years ago; we were just told that our kid had qualified based on testing. Maybe it was because our base school was pretty remedial due to a lot of kids who needed help, but teachers basically encouraged kids who learned faster to get out and go to the AAP center if possible, period. Once our kid was at the elementary center, in four years I only encountered one set of parents I would really call "pushy" about their kid's academics, and yeah, they were a pain, but they weren't the norm. And I spent time in the school with some extracurriculars that were done mostly by the AAP students, and volunteering in classrooms, and I can recall maybe one kid over the years who had any attitude of superiority about being in AAP.

I wonder if, in the past six years or so, there has been a lot more focus on the qualifying testing, and parents have gotten more aggressive about getting kids into AAP come hell or high water or even moving house? ....We and other families we know well just didn't experience or hear about the whole hand-wringing DCUM stuff of "Where else can I get my kid tested" and "Is this score good enough" and "Should we move to get into this or that AAP center eventually" like I feel I see here all the time. It just wasn't our experience at all, so I wonder if it's a more recent thing among some parents to be pushy and encourage their kids to feel superior. My kid had six years of excellent teachers (I can only think of maybe one who was "checked out" and not trying; the rest were creative and took things beyond what I know general ed and even MS honors were doing) and peers who were overall nice kids. I guess it's down to the individual schools a child attends, and ours were ones where the teachers seemed engaged and our kid came home talking about some very creative things going on in the classrooms.

I don't disagree with PP that there surely are pushy parents and snotty kids in AAP, but it's not everyone, everywhere.

[Anonymous]

The reason Honors works in Middle school is because students really have demonstrated subject-specific talents and parents are more removed from the whole process. If parents are allowed to place their children in certain subjects at the elementary level it will devolve into all kids being signed up for whatever seems to be the fun class, the socially popular class, the "cool teacher" class, the "smart kids" class.

As it is we have a Kindergarten teacher that is seen as The K teacher to have. She's not even that different than the others but in our neighborhood the answer to "which K teacher is good?" has been "Oh, Ms. ABC!" for so long that it's set in stone. Now the parents send letters and set up appts with the principal to push for that class.

Parents campaigning to get their children into AAP from K on already proves that parents don't always know best or at least shouldn't have all the power in placement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The reason Honors works in Middle school is because students really have demonstrated subject-specific talents and parents are more removed from the whole process. If parents are allowed to place their children in certain subjects at the elementary level it will devolve into all kids being signed up for whatever seems to be the fun class, the socially popular class, the "cool teacher" class, the "smart kids" class.

As it is we have a Kindergarten teacher that is seen as The K teacher to have. She's not even that different than the others but in our neighborhood the answer to "which K teacher is good?" has been "Oh, Ms. ABC!" for so long that it's set in stone. Now the parents send letters and set up appts with the principal to push for that class.

Parents campaigning to get their children into AAP from K on already proves that parents don't always know best or at least shouldn't have all the power in placement.

This. I'd leave it in the teacher's hands, except in very rare cases. They'd probably have the best idea of what children could do the actual work. Many parents need to be less involved in their kids schooling, not more.