Drop foreign language after 10th grade?

[Anonymous]

My kid took Spanish 1,2,3 through junior year of high school. No foreign language senior year. Was recently admitted ED to a T10's Arts & Sciences school, aiming for a science major though the school does not admit by major.

Yes, he'll have to take foreign lang in college, as he has long been aware.

AP foreign language is like any other core subject AP. Whether not having it matters for the purpose of rigor will depend on the rest of the transcript.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:depends on the major. if pursuing STEM, if 4th year foreign language is taken in 10th grade, it's ok to drop to make room for science and math.

That's not a blanket rule. Most top schools was to see four years plus the most rigorous courses taken in high school. Yes, you do read here occasionally about the odd person who wants to major in engineering and gets in without the four years, but that is rare and often a hooked applicant. talk to your college counselor. Most will tell you to stick with the foreign language

OP stated their kid was taking thru year 4. As long as it's on the transcript for 4 years of FL and the kid replaces it with rigorous AP/IB courses, I think you are fine. Now, if your kid will be in a LA major that requires FL in college, I would recommend keeping it up, taking AP and getting credit for the first year +. But if in a major that will not require FL in college, then you should be fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If she stops it means she opens up a a slot for someone else at UVA.

I'm sure you meant that as a snark, but it is true for ALL of the top top schools. The Ivies and top SLACs want to see that the student has availed themselves of the most rigorous courses offered by their high school, which means, of course, exhausting the foreign language requirement. Google it

If a STEM/Eng major, she took 4 years of FL at the HS level (if on transcript) and replaces it with advanced STEM courses, it should not hurt her. Most would rather see AP Bio, AP Physics C, AND AP Chem in HS than replacing one of those with a 5th year of Spanish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid hated foreign language and wanted to take more science and tech classes. We had them email 4 or 5 schools they would consider (not Ivys or top SLACs - I think it was VA Tech, Perdue, WPI, GA Tech and one I can’t remember) and ask if it would hurt their chances for an admit as a comp sci or engineering major. All the schools except GA Tech said it wouldn’t matter. One said explicitly that it’s better to take the highest level STEM classes. GA Tech sent a reply that didn’t address the issue at all- clearly canned (or AI).

We know it will hurt chances at the highest level scho, but the chances of a T20 school were low anyway. It’s too bad that decision will probably take UVA off the table, but my kid really hated foreign language. I didn’t want them miserable the rest of high school anyway.

I get two years in HS, if you took a few years in MS, but when is enough? My kid hates it and wants to take other classes and by doing a foreign language its very limiting.

let them---only reason not to is if they will major in LA/something where FL in college is a requirement. then keep it up in HS. But for an CS/eng major, let them take advanced STEM courses in HS is more important.

[Anonymous]

My kid is dreading taking Spanish 5 next year as a junior; however it's required for the IB diploma so she's stuck. Luckily, she doesn't have to take it her senior year. I do think these language requirements are ridiculous once they've hit level 4. If it weren't for the IB requirement, she would drop it and opt for an elective that she's much more interested in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is dreading taking Spanish 5 next year as a junior; however it's required for the IB diploma so she's stuck. Luckily, she doesn't have to take it her senior year. I do think these language requirements are ridiculous once they've hit level 4. If it weren't for the IB requirement, she would drop it and opt for an elective that she's much more interested in.

Fun experiment. Talk to a 100 kids who took AP (any language) two years after they did. Count how many of them can hold a basic conversation. Maybe a couple will. The rest.. I see absolutely no reason to force language on everyone (saying this as someone who is fluent in 4 languages).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is dreading taking Spanish 5 next year as a junior; however it's required for the IB diploma so she's stuck. Luckily, she doesn't have to take it her senior year. I do think these language requirements are ridiculous once they've hit level 4. If it weren't for the IB requirement, she would drop it and opt for an elective that she's much more interested in.

Fun experiment. Talk to a 100 kids who took AP (any language) two years after they did. Count how many of them can hold a basic conversation. Maybe a couple will. The rest.. I see absolutely no reason to force language on everyone (saying this as someone who is fluent in 4 languages).

Do we apply this standard to advanced math or science? I’m confident that in two years my senior humanities kid taking AP calculus and physics E&M this year will not be able to speak fluently/cogently about calculus or physics, but they’re taking those classes now to demonstrate maximum rigor and willingness to challenge themselves outside their comfort zone. I’m not sure why we don’t think about FL the same way, and my understanding is that many colleges do think about it this way. They aren’t looking for fluency—they are looking for indications that students are pursuing a broad, challenging curriculum.

And FWIW, in 10th grade, the idea of taking calculus was terrifying to my kid; they really didn’t want to, but we discussed the fact that they schools they were interested in would expect it and that if they wanted to keep their admissions options open, they should probably take it. Turns out…it’s going well! Kid doesn’t love it but finds it comprehensible and knows that it’s a net positive for their application.

Advanced FL isn’t just for humanities kids just like calculus isn’t just for STEM kids. Obviously we don’t force kids to take either, but there’s no reason to think of AP French as less valuable/worthwhile than AP Calculus…especially since neither is super-practical for most kids!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is dreading taking Spanish 5 next year as a junior; however it's required for the IB diploma so she's stuck. Luckily, she doesn't have to take it her senior year. I do think these language requirements are ridiculous once they've hit level 4. If it weren't for the IB requirement, she would drop it and opt for an elective that she's much more interested in.

Fun experiment. Talk to a 100 kids who took AP (any language) two years after they did. Count how many of them can hold a basic conversation. Maybe a couple will. The rest.. I see absolutely no reason to force language on everyone (saying this as someone who is fluent in 4 languages).

To me when a language course is done well, it does not only teach the language but also about the culture/s that use said language. Ideally it broadens the horizon beyond once own culture/country.

Maybe in 100 years when the main science/business language is changing again, people will sing a different tune.

[Anonymous]

Our sophomore wasn't ready for middle school foreign language but will be taking Latin all four years of HS. May take the AP Latin exam.

I think foreign language looks very good on a college application. It shows you can hang in there, and hunker down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You may want to look at the admissions requirements for some of the flagships she might be interested in. Some require 3 or 4 years of foreign language in high school.

Most require 2. Some recommend 3 or 4. None require 4.

This. Mine took two years of Spanish in high school and was admitted to T10s and UVA, UT and Michigan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is dreading taking Spanish 5 next year as a junior; however it's required for the IB diploma so she's stuck. Luckily, she doesn't have to take it her senior year. I do think these language requirements are ridiculous once they've hit level 4. If it weren't for the IB requirement, she would drop it and opt for an elective that she's much more interested in.

Fun experiment. Talk to a 100 kids who took AP (any language) two years after they did. Count how many of them can hold a basic conversation. Maybe a couple will. The rest.. I see absolutely no reason to force language on everyone (saying this as someone who is fluent in 4 languages).

Do we apply this standard to advanced math or science? I’m confident that in two years my senior humanities kid taking AP calculus and physics E&M this year will not be able to speak fluently/cogently about calculus or physics, but they’re taking those classes now to demonstrate maximum rigor and willingness to challenge themselves outside their comfort zone. I’m not sure why we don’t think about FL the same way, and my understanding is that many colleges do think about it this way. They aren’t looking for fluency—they are looking for indications that students are pursuing a broad, challenging curriculum.

And FWIW, in 10th grade, the idea of taking calculus was terrifying to my kid; they really didn’t want to, but we discussed the fact that they schools they were interested in would expect it and that if they wanted to keep their admissions options open, they should probably take it. Turns out…it’s going well! Kid doesn’t love it but finds it comprehensible and knows that it’s a net positive for their application.

Advanced FL isn’t just for humanities kids just like calculus isn’t just for STEM kids. Obviously we don’t force kids to take either, but there’s no reason to think of AP French as less valuable/worthwhile than AP Calculus…especially since neither is super-practical for most kids!

No. But there are lower level options available for those subjects and they are core subjects for most advanced studies. (Try doing a Phd in psychology without knowing calculus of statistics). My point simply is that FL teaching should be focused on usability - speak and understand the language when watching a show, conversing with people or traveling - not grammar and literature unless of course that's the intended path. Why not have two levels - practical (teaching what I described) and literary (for those pursuing FL in college and want a strong literary foundation)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is dreading taking Spanish 5 next year as a junior; however it's required for the IB diploma so she's stuck. Luckily, she doesn't have to take it her senior year. I do think these language requirements are ridiculous once they've hit level 4. If it weren't for the IB requirement, she would drop it and opt for an elective that she's much more interested in.

Fun experiment. Talk to a 100 kids who took AP (any language) two years after they did. Count how many of them can hold a basic conversation. Maybe a couple will. The rest.. I see absolutely no reason to force language on everyone (saying this as someone who is fluent in 4 languages).

Do we apply this standard to advanced math or science? I’m confident that in two years my senior humanities kid taking AP calculus and physics E&M this year will not be able to speak fluently/cogently about calculus or physics, but they’re taking those classes now to demonstrate maximum rigor and willingness to challenge themselves outside their comfort zone. I’m not sure why we don’t think about FL the same way, and my understanding is that many colleges do think about it this way. They aren’t looking for fluency—they are looking for indications that students are pursuing a broad, challenging curriculum.

And FWIW, in 10th grade, the idea of taking calculus was terrifying to my kid; they really didn’t want to, but we discussed the fact that they schools they were interested in would expect it and that if they wanted to keep their admissions options open, they should probably take it. Turns out…it’s going well! Kid doesn’t love it but finds it comprehensible and knows that it’s a net positive for their application.

Advanced FL isn’t just for humanities kids just like calculus isn’t just for STEM kids. Obviously we don’t force kids to take either, but there’s no reason to think of AP French as less valuable/worthwhile than AP Calculus…especially since neither is super-practical for most kids!

No. But there are lower level options available for those subjects and they are core subjects for most advanced studies. (Try doing a Phd in psychology without knowing calculus of statistics). My point simply is that FL teaching should be focused on usability - speak and understand the language when watching a show, conversing with people or traveling - not grammar and literature unless of course that's the intended path. Why not have two levels - practical (teaching what I described) and literary (for those pursuing FL in college and want a strong literary foundation)?

I don’t disagree with your suggestion but also don’t think you’ve actually answered the question, which is why does it matter whether advanced FL is practical any more than it matters whether advanced math is practical? My understanding of OP’s question is, will dropping FL hurt her kid’s admissions prospects? And the answer is, possibly, yes, just like not pursuing advanced math or science could hurt her prospects. It might be that neither is practical for a given student but that both are desired by colleges in the admissions process as a signal of willingness to pursue challenge, intellectual curiosity, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is dreading taking Spanish 5 next year as a junior; however it's required for the IB diploma so she's stuck. Luckily, she doesn't have to take it her senior year. I do think these language requirements are ridiculous once they've hit level 4. If it weren't for the IB requirement, she would drop it and opt for an elective that she's much more interested in.

Fun experiment. Talk to a 100 kids who took AP (any language) two years after they did. Count how many of them can hold a basic conversation. Maybe a couple will. The rest.. I see absolutely no reason to force language on everyone (saying this as someone who is fluent in 4 languages).

Do we apply this standard to advanced math or science? I’m confident that in two years my senior humanities kid taking AP calculus and physics E&M this year will not be able to speak fluently/cogently about calculus or physics, but they’re taking those classes now to demonstrate maximum rigor and willingness to challenge themselves outside their comfort zone. I’m not sure why we don’t think about FL the same way, and my understanding is that many colleges do think about it this way. They aren’t looking for fluency—they are looking for indications that students are pursuing a broad, challenging curriculum.

And FWIW, in 10th grade, the idea of taking calculus was terrifying to my kid; they really didn’t want to, but we discussed the fact that they schools they were interested in would expect it and that if they wanted to keep their admissions options open, they should probably take it. Turns out…it’s going well! Kid doesn’t love it but finds it comprehensible and knows that it’s a net positive for their application.

Advanced FL isn’t just for humanities kids just like calculus isn’t just for STEM kids. Obviously we don’t force kids to take either, but there’s no reason to think of AP French as less valuable/worthwhile than AP Calculus…especially since neither is super-practical for most kids!

No. But there are lower level options available for those subjects and they are core subjects for most advanced studies. (Try doing a Phd in psychology without knowing calculus of statistics). My point simply is that FL teaching should be focused on usability - speak and understand the language when watching a show, conversing with people or traveling - not grammar and literature unless of course that's the intended path. Why not have two levels - practical (teaching what I described) and literary (for those pursuing FL in college and want a strong literary foundation)?

I don’t disagree with your suggestion but also don’t think you’ve actually answered the question, which is why does it matter whether advanced FL is practical any more than it matters whether advanced math is practical? My understanding of OP’s question is, will dropping FL hurt her kid’s admissions prospects? And the answer is, possibly, yes, just like not pursuing advanced math or science could hurt her prospects. It might be that neither is practical for a given student but that both are desired by colleges in the admissions process as a signal of willingness to pursue challenge, intellectual curiosity, etc.

Enough people have responded citing specific anecdotal data that dropping language does not impact college admissions as long as you meet minimum criteria and other parts of your application are good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is dreading taking Spanish 5 next year as a junior; however it's required for the IB diploma so she's stuck. Luckily, she doesn't have to take it her senior year. I do think these language requirements are ridiculous once they've hit level 4. If it weren't for the IB requirement, she would drop it and opt for an elective that she's much more interested in.

Fun experiment. Talk to a 100 kids who took AP (any language) two years after they did. Count how many of them can hold a basic conversation. Maybe a couple will. The rest.. I see absolutely no reason to force language on everyone (saying this as someone who is fluent in 4 languages).

+1

My kid dropped after FL 3, when FL4 conflicted with another class and AP FL was taught by a terrible teacher (kid had them for FL2 and was not willing to subject themselves to that and self teaching AP FL to themselves). So kid dropped and added in an AP STEM course instead. Kid is ENG major with CS minor at a T40 school. Don't think the no AP FL was the reason they didn't get into T20 schools. My kid would have been miserable with the FL so instead opted for the AP courses that made much more sense for their interests.

[Anonymous]

Being able to speak, read and write fluently in another language opens you to different ways of looking at the world and makes you more competitive as a potential employee. I’ve been fortunate to have fluency or professional proficiency in three languages other then Han English and it has enriched my life. It is short -sighted to think of foreign language fluency as a box to check for college admission.

My languages: Russian, Polish and Spanish. Career in international business with majors in political science and intl affairs. $225K annual.