Drop foreign language after 10th grade?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it a problem if the highest available course in a child's language is taken in 11th grade?

No—maxing out rigor is the important thing.

What if it’s taken in 10th grade? That’s where my kid will be with AP Spanish in 10th.

[Anonymous]

This is OP. We decided that my daughter would drop Spanish and take another AP instead that she had an interest in. Last week she met with her HS counselor who said that her best option would be to continue Spanish, and the second best option would be to switch to another language. The counselor recommended taking ASL.
I can't for the life of me understand how this makes sense. Why would switching to ASL (or any other new language) be a better option than taking a different AP class? The counselor also stated that it would have been better for her if she didn't even take world language in middle school.

I must admit I am a bit mad now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My daughter will have 4 years of world language after 10th grade. She really does not want to take language for next year. She is a high achieving student, but we can't afford private universities so will likely be looking at the better state flagships. Unfortunately, she does not yet know where she would like to go or what she would like to study.

How much would it hurt her in admissions if she drops the world language now?

Colleges recognize the variation in language course levels across different public school systems. Attaining four years of foreign language in a system that offers courses labeled as foreign language 1, 2, 3, and AP holds more significance than completing first four years in a system with a sequence of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and AP. When assessing foreign language proficiency, priority is given to completion of the AP level. The number of years taken to reach the AP level is secondary; if a student spends five years and does not complete AP, foreign language attainment is not considered a four-year accomplishment, particularly when the highest level offered is AP at their school.

Agreed, AP foreign language is a plus for admissions just like any other AP if it is relevant for the major being applied. Even if it is not relevant, after admission, it could provide credits towards graduation. Most colleges have an AP credit policy stating what an AP score of 4 or 5 is equivalent to their college course. And if that course can serve as an elective, then that AP foreign language readily contributes credits towards the degree requirement.

As an example, AP French gives three to four credits at many colleges:

https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/getting-credit-placement/search-policies/course/14

Do you by chance know how it's viewed by colleges - both for admission purposes and FL credit - if a student takes a FL that does not have the AP designation at Level 4 at their school, but the AP exam is offered?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My daughter will have 4 years of world language after 10th grade. She really does not want to take language for next year. She is a high achieving student, but we can't afford private universities so will likely be looking at the better state flagships. Unfortunately, she does not yet know where she would like to go or what she would like to study.

How much would it hurt her in admissions if she drops the world language now?

Colleges recognize the variation in language course levels across different public school systems. Attaining four years of foreign language in a system that offers courses labeled as foreign language 1, 2, 3, and AP holds more significance than completing first four years in a system with a sequence of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and AP. When assessing foreign language proficiency, priority is given to completion of the AP level. The number of years taken to reach the AP level is secondary; if a student spends five years and does not complete AP, foreign language attainment is not considered a four-year accomplishment, particularly when the highest level offered is AP at their school.

Agreed, AP foreign language is a plus for admissions just like any other AP if it is relevant for the major being applied. Even if it is not relevant, after admission, it could provide credits towards graduation. Most colleges have an AP credit policy stating what an AP score of 4 or 5 is equivalent to their college course. And if that course can serve as an elective, then that AP foreign language readily contributes credits towards the degree requirement.

As an example, AP French gives three to four credits at many colleges:

https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/getting-credit-placement/search-policies/course/14

Do you by chance know how it's viewed by colleges - both for admission purposes and FL credit - if a student takes a FL that does not have the AP designation at Level 4 at their school, but the AP exam is offered?

DP. The exam score is what matters. Doesn't matter if the school offers the class or not.

[Anonymous]

My kid would like to stop after honors 3 level (sophomore). Received dual-college credit. Doesn’t want to do the AP. Seems like that should be fine since already received college credit?

Why would college admissions care given that the college FL req would be satisfied by dual-credit (and not even necessary if kid decides to be a STEM major)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If she stops it means she opens up a a slot for someone else at UVA.

I'm sure you meant that as a snark, but it is true for ALL of the top top schools. The Ivies and top SLACs want to see that the student has availed themselves of the most rigorous courses offered by their high school, which means, of course, exhausting the foreign language requirement. Google it

Really? What if they want to drop AP language in order to take AP Physics C along with Calculus III and AP Chem. Not a hypothetical. This is what my DD is considering for senior year based on her interests. How can swapping out AP language for a second AP science not be equivalent in the “rigor” department?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If she stops it means she opens up a a slot for someone else at UVA.

I'm sure you meant that as a snark, but it is true for ALL of the top top schools. The Ivies and top SLACs want to see that the student has availed themselves of the most rigorous courses offered by their high school, which means, of course, exhausting the foreign language requirement. Google it

Really? What if they want to drop AP language in order to take AP Physics C along with Calculus III and AP Chem. Not a hypothetical. This is what my DD is considering for senior year based on her interests. How can swapping out AP language for a second AP science not be equivalent in the “rigor” department?

FWIW some colleges and universities have made it clear that they consider foreign language to be a "core subject" as important as Science, Math, etc. UVA has been clear about this (four years in the same language). Other schools don't care that much. Talk to your college counselor.

Here's what Dean J at UVA has said on the topic. Note that five core areas are of equal importance.

1. All of your core classes are important.
A lot of people focus on the core areas that correspond to their current academic interest. I've even had people wave off certain subjects because they aren't interested in them or they don't come "naturally" to them. I wish they'd stop this. High school is the time to get a broad foundation in several areas and college is the time to specialize. We most concerned with a student's work in five core areas (in alpha order, not order of importance): [b]English, Math, Science, Social Science, and World Language.

She says in her blog that doubling up on a science course and dropping another core class is not a good idea. Worth talking to your counselor and UVA about (if at all interested) before proceeding.

[Anonymous]

UVA is not a top school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If she stops it means she opens up a a slot for someone else at UVA.

I'm sure you meant that as a snark, but it is true for ALL of the top top schools. The Ivies and top SLACs want to see that the student has availed themselves of the most rigorous courses offered by their high school, which means, of course, exhausting the foreign language requirement. Google it

Really? What if they want to drop AP language in order to take AP Physics C along with Calculus III and AP Chem. Not a hypothetical. This is what my DD is considering for senior year based on her interests. How can swapping out AP language for a second AP science not be equivalent in the “rigor” department?

My senior was admitted to a top 10 university with a similar arrangement. Level 3 of foreign lang junior year. Took Calc III and AP Physics C senior year. Did not take AP chem.

Foreign language is a core subject, but it's the least important one. Students do not need an AP in every single core to be admitted to a top school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is dreading taking Spanish 5 next year as a junior; however it's required for the IB diploma so she's stuck. Luckily, she doesn't have to take it her senior year. I do think these language requirements are ridiculous once they've hit level 4. If it weren't for the IB requirement, she would drop it and opt for an elective that she's much more interested in.

Fun experiment. Talk to a 100 kids who took AP (any language) two years after they did. Count how many of them can hold a basic conversation. Maybe a couple will. The rest.. I see absolutely no reason to force language on everyone (saying this as someone who is fluent in 4 languages).

Do we apply this standard to advanced math or science? I’m confident that in two years my senior humanities kid taking AP calculus and physics E&M this year will not be able to speak fluently/cogently about calculus or physics, but they’re taking those classes now to demonstrate maximum rigor and willingness to challenge themselves outside their comfort zone. I’m not sure why we don’t think about FL the same way, and my understanding is that many colleges do think about it this way. They aren’t looking for fluency—they are looking for indications that students are pursuing a broad, challenging curriculum.

And FWIW, in 10th grade, the idea of taking calculus was terrifying to my kid; they really didn’t want to, but we discussed the fact that they schools they were interested in would expect it and that if they wanted to keep their admissions options open, they should probably take it. Turns out…it’s going well! Kid doesn’t love it but finds it comprehensible and knows that it’s a net positive for their application.

Advanced FL isn’t just for humanities kids just like calculus isn’t just for STEM kids. Obviously we don’t force kids to take either, but there’s no reason to think of AP French as less valuable/worthwhile than AP Calculus…especially since neither is super-practical for most kids!

No. But there are lower level options available for those subjects and they are core subjects for most advanced studies. (Try doing a Phd in psychology without knowing calculus of statistics). My point simply is that FL teaching should be focused on usability - speak and understand the language when watching a show, conversing with people or traveling - not grammar and literature unless of course that's the intended path. Why not have two levels - practical (teaching what I described) and literary (for those pursuing FL in college and want a strong literary foundation)?

I don’t disagree with your suggestion but also don’t think you’ve actually answered the question, which is why does it matter whether advanced FL is practical any more than it matters whether advanced math is practical? My understanding of OP’s question is, will dropping FL hurt her kid’s admissions prospects? And the answer is, possibly, yes, just like not pursuing advanced math or science could hurt her prospects. It might be that neither is practical for a given student but that both are desired by colleges in the admissions process as a signal of willingness to pursue challenge, intellectual curiosity, etc.

Enough people have responded citing specific anecdotal data that dropping language does not impact college admissions as long as you meet minimum criteria and other parts of your application are good.

+1