Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

I think the show goes with all of them going to prison except for Tom and Gerri (get it) - and they get married.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Shiv seemed to like him more once he started being meaner to her -- slapping her for scuffing his shoes, insulting her ears, etc. He was just trying to do more of the same by giving her a scorpion -- he thought she only liked ironic and somewhat hurtfully honest expressions of love rather than the normal mawkish and sincere expressions most of us aim for. It's not totally his fault for getting that impression! He was working with what she gave him!

Don't forget that this week is also the election, so people's positions can change depending on which horse they're backing for president.

Does anyone else remember when Tom had an unexplained black eye in season one? He told Roman and Kendall he got it being “freaky” with Shiv. Maybe this was/is their thing.

[Anonymous]

I noticed right away how un-frumpy Shiv looked in this episode (aside from being on the couch in her PJs). She looked absolutely on fire. I'm sure that was a purposeful contrast to how rumpled she looked early in the season.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I noticed right away how un-frumpy Shiv looked in this episode (aside from being on the couch in her PJs). She looked absolutely on fire. I'm sure that was a purposeful contrast to how rumpled she looked early in the season.

The show may be sending us a signal, or it may just be a bi-product of the dressers' effort to cover up the real-life actor's pregnancy.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If Tom didn’t father Shiv’s baby, who did? They can’t spring a new baby daddy character on us in the last few episodes, can they?

No, it's def Tom. Why Shiv kept looking at him and suddenly felt ambivalent about their relationship, even giving it one final go.

The show runners have confirmed in a podcast that Tom is the father. For sure for sure, no more speculation.

I think that fight makes it slightly more likely that Shiv will terminate the pregnancy because right now her choices are awful. She can try to stick it out with Tom, knowing that he believe what he said about her and also knowing that he would probably stick it out anyway just to stay in proximity to the money and power. Or she can divorce him knowing that he will have parental rights and she will have to pay him probably a huge amount in child support (in divorces like this, child support can be massive because there is an expectation that the kids have some consistency in their lives between the rich parent and the not-rich parents, which means the rich parent forks over a lot of money for housing, tutoring, activities, private schools, etc. in order to make up for the difference in resources) plus they would be in each others lives for ever.

Shiv is in her 5th or 6th month, isn’t she? I’m guessing the super-rich can always pay someone to take care of it, but still it seems like a long-shot.

Neither Shiv nor Tom would make a great parent, but Tom might be marginally better.

How on earth can Tom NOT know that she’s pregnant? She looks different and they were sleeping together. You’d think he would have noticed or suspected.

Why isn’t she telling him??????

Full confession - I have become a little obsessed with this show.

I re-watched this episode and I think Tom knows she's pregnant. During their fight when he says he doesn't think she would be a very good mother the camera zooms in on Shiv and you can tell that really hit her lunch a punch in the gut, but her reaction is a weak, "Well, that's not a very nice thing to say, is it?" I'm not trying to go down a Lost type rabbit hole here, but if you cut out that part of the fight it's at a very different pace/level than the rest. Tom makes a big pause before he says that, and then Shiv has this very weak reaction - she doesn't attack Tom, she just kind of folds. And then they move on. Call me crazy, but this was a vicious fight and when Tom says that it's a perfect opening for Shiv to go for the jugular and really insult him where he's vulnerable, and she just doesn't.

^^ "like a punch in the gut," not lunch - LOL.

I more or less agree. He can't NOT know. I think he said that as a really low blow.

The way he paused and considered before he said it- I agree, I think he suspects, and said it to be a very low blow to her. He definitely has that side of him- to be incredibly cruel while maintaining plausible deniability about how cruel he is being.

This is a very insightful point about Tom. I also think his cruelty comes from being pretty intelligent and a good observer of other people, but he rarely gets to actually express these observations in this world because he knows he's an outsider and has to suck up to everyone, including his wife. It's why he's so cruel to Greg and sometimes to other underlings at Waystar (on the rare occasion we seem him interact with them). It's his chance to let his wit, which is naturally critical and cruel, come out.

Yes. He is almost sadistically cruel sometimes. He lets it all out on greg to get it out of his system but it simmers under the surface when he interacts with Shiv, for a while I’ve noticed. Like how he asked her father for divorce advice and put all the good lawyers on retainer before she could call them- and then acted sort of innocent about it when she called him. And how he betrayed her in the first place, even when he opened up honestly about it being about the money- he could have gotten plenty of money sticking with Shiv and her brothers in their play to take over, but he backstabbed her and then tried to pretend he didn’t- I think part of him truly hates her and he wants to be cruel to her but knows he can’t be openly cruel.

This is true, but it's notable that Shiv has ALWAYS been openly cruel to him, since the beginning of the show. She was very cruel to him on their wedding night, she was cruel throughout their marriage, she was cruel to him when it looked like he might get hung up with a prison sentence over the cruise fiasco. The thing that has changed is not her behavior but Tom's response to it. He never lashed back out at her like this back on those occasions. He might have said hurtful things (I can't remember) but he didn't go for the jugular in quite the same way, he just accepted a lot of the abuse.

I think on some level that realization last season that Shiv was fine with him going to prison (not like gleeful about it, but just fine with it, didn't really affect her either way) made him realize that simply sucking up to Shiv was never going to get him what he wants, which is to be fully and firmly a member of the family with all rights and privileges. I also think he loves Shiv, but his interest in her money and status is so completely tied to that love you can't separate them.

So he kind of snapped and now I think he simply cannot take the disrespect. He can't sit there and smile and laugh while his wife jokes that he's about to be fired and flirts with this billionaire. That thing he said about caring about his career -- I think he has come to view his career as the only valuable thing he might get out of his marriage, if he can salvage it, so it was a particularly low blow to have it tossed around as a joke at the party.

Damn, this is good. I don't like to think of him as cruel. He's Tom Wambsgans!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If Tom didn’t father Shiv’s baby, who did? They can’t spring a new baby daddy character on us in the last few episodes, can they?

No, it's def Tom. Why Shiv kept looking at him and suddenly felt ambivalent about their relationship, even giving it one final go.

The show runners have confirmed in a podcast that Tom is the father. For sure for sure, no more speculation.

I think that fight makes it slightly more likely that Shiv will terminate the pregnancy because right now her choices are awful. She can try to stick it out with Tom, knowing that he believe what he said about her and also knowing that he would probably stick it out anyway just to stay in proximity to the money and power. Or she can divorce him knowing that he will have parental rights and she will have to pay him probably a huge amount in child support (in divorces like this, child support can be massive because there is an expectation that the kids have some consistency in their lives between the rich parent and the not-rich parents, which means the rich parent forks over a lot of money for housing, tutoring, activities, private schools, etc. in order to make up for the difference in resources) plus they would be in each others lives for ever.

Shiv is in her 5th or 6th month, isn’t she? I’m guessing the super-rich can always pay someone to take care of it, but still it seems like a long-shot.

Neither Shiv nor Tom would make a great parent, but Tom might be marginally better.

How on earth can Tom NOT know that she’s pregnant? She looks different and they were sleeping together. You’d think he would have noticed or suspected.

Why isn’t she telling him??????

Full confession - I have become a little obsessed with this show.

I re-watched this episode and I think Tom knows she's pregnant. During their fight when he says he doesn't think she would be a very good mother the camera zooms in on Shiv and you can tell that really hit her lunch a punch in the gut, but her reaction is a weak, "Well, that's not a very nice thing to say, is it?" I'm not trying to go down a Lost type rabbit hole here, but if you cut out that part of the fight it's at a very different pace/level than the rest. Tom makes a big pause before he says that, and then Shiv has this very weak reaction - she doesn't attack Tom, she just kind of folds. And then they move on. Call me crazy, but this was a vicious fight and when Tom says that it's a perfect opening for Shiv to go for the jugular and really insult him where he's vulnerable, and she just doesn't.

^^ "like a punch in the gut," not lunch - LOL.

I more or less agree. He can't NOT know. I think he said that as a really low blow.

The way he paused and considered before he said it- I agree, I think he suspects, and said it to be a very low blow to her. He definitely has that side of him- to be incredibly cruel while maintaining plausible deniability about how cruel he is being.

This is a very insightful point about Tom. I also think his cruelty comes from being pretty intelligent and a good observer of other people, but he rarely gets to actually express these observations in this world because he knows he's an outsider and has to suck up to everyone, including his wife. It's why he's so cruel to Greg and sometimes to other underlings at Waystar (on the rare occasion we seem him interact with them). It's his chance to let his wit, which is naturally critical and cruel, come out.

Yes. He is almost sadistically cruel sometimes. He lets it all out on greg to get it out of his system but it simmers under the surface when he interacts with Shiv, for a while I’ve noticed. Like how he asked her father for divorce advice and put all the good lawyers on retainer before she could call them- and then acted sort of innocent about it when she called him. And how he betrayed her in the first place, even when he opened up honestly about it being about the money- he could have gotten plenty of money sticking with Shiv and her brothers in their play to take over, but he backstabbed her and then tried to pretend he didn’t- I think part of him truly hates her and he wants to be cruel to her but knows he can’t be openly cruel.

This is true, but it's notable that Shiv has ALWAYS been openly cruel to him, since the beginning of the show. She was very cruel to him on their wedding night, she was cruel throughout their marriage, she was cruel to him when it looked like he might get hung up with a prison sentence over the cruise fiasco. The thing that has changed is not her behavior but Tom's response to it. He never lashed back out at her like this back on those occasions. He might have said hurtful things (I can't remember) but he didn't go for the jugular in quite the same way, he just accepted a lot of the abuse.

I think on some level that realization last season that Shiv was fine with him going to prison (not like gleeful about it, but just fine with it, didn't really affect her either way) made him realize that simply sucking up to Shiv was never going to get him what he wants, which is to be fully and firmly a member of the family with all rights and privileges. I also think he loves Shiv, but his interest in her money and status is so completely tied to that love you can't separate them.

So he kind of snapped and now I think he simply cannot take the disrespect. He can't sit there and smile and laugh while his wife jokes that he's about to be fired and flirts with this billionaire. That thing he said about caring about his career -- I think he has come to view his career as the only valuable thing he might get out of his marriage, if he can salvage it, so it was a particularly low blow to have it tossed around as a joke at the party.

Damn, this is good. I don't like to think of him as cruel. He's Tom Wambsgans!

He has ALWAYS been cruel!! He only punches down though. He has been abhorrent to Greg since day 1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I noticed right away how un-frumpy Shiv looked in this episode (aside from being on the couch in her PJs). She looked absolutely on fire. I'm sure that was a purposeful contrast to how rumpled she looked early in the season.

The show may be sending us a signal, or it may just be a bi-product of the dressers' effort to cover up the real-life actor's pregnancy.

Wasn’t she like barely 10’weeks when filming ended? There probably wasn’t a lot to cover up…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I noticed right away how un-frumpy Shiv looked in this episode (aside from being on the couch in her PJs). She looked absolutely on fire. I'm sure that was a purposeful contrast to how rumpled she looked early in the season.

The show may be sending us a signal, or it may just be a bi-product of the dressers' effort to cover up the real-life actor's pregnancy.

Wasn’t she like barely 10’weeks when filming ended? There probably wasn’t a lot to cover up…

Yeah she wasn't even pregnant when they started filming. She's due end of this month and they stared filming in June 2022. Not sure when they finished filming, but she couldn't have been that far along.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I noticed right away how un-frumpy Shiv looked in this episode (aside from being on the couch in her PJs). She looked absolutely on fire. I'm sure that was a purposeful contrast to how rumpled she looked early in the season.

The show may be sending us a signal, or it may just be a bi-product of the dressers' effort to cover up the real-life actor's pregnancy.

It's the last couple of episodes - she's definitely looking 🔥 and wearing much different clothes. I think it's because she feels herself gaining, or regaining, some power - in part because of her relationship with Mattison, part because she and Tom have been going at it again. I guess maybe her father's death has had an effect.

But who knows what'll happen now.

She's been looking amazing, anyway.

[Anonymous]

This was a wow episode. But I thought it was poor writing to expect viewers to remember who Nate was. All they needed to do was drop a line into the breakfast table conversation where Ken and Roman ask Shiv if they can invite him, or when Shiv tells Tom he is coming. None of the dialogue with him made any sense because I didn’t have a clue who he was—we last saw him in, what, the second season? Judging from the discussion up thread, I wasn’t the only one at a loss.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This was a wow episode. But I thought it was poor writing to expect viewers to remember who Nate was. All they needed to do was drop a line into the breakfast table conversation where Ken and Roman ask Shiv if they can invite him, or when Shiv tells Tom he is coming. None of the dialogue with him made any sense because I didn’t have a clue who he was—we last saw him in, what, the second season? Judging from the discussion up thread, I wasn’t the only one at a loss.

He was a very major character in the season he was featured in. I knew exactly who they meant

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This was a wow episode. But I thought it was poor writing to expect viewers to remember who Nate was. All they needed to do was drop a line into the breakfast table conversation where Ken and Roman ask Shiv if they can invite him, or when Shiv tells Tom he is coming. None of the dialogue with him made any sense because I didn’t have a clue who he was—we last saw him in, what, the second season? Judging from the discussion up thread, I wasn’t the only one at a loss.

What? Nate was a major character as he is Shiv's ex-boyfriend who she met through Kendall (I think they were college drinking buddies). Nate went into politics and I thought was the COS or a strategist for Gil and they convinced Shiv to come work for Gil. Then Nate propositions Shiv, telling her he still is attracted to her and that he would sleep with her whenever she wanted. Nate has a fiancé who I think is a doctor, but he wants to sleep with Shiv again. They do start sleeping together and this is how Shiv starts cheating on Tom. Shiv even invites Nate and Gil to her wedding, them attend, Nate is flirting with Shiv, Greg sees it and reports it back to Tom. Tom then confronts Nate.

Nate is super sleazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was a wow episode. But I thought it was poor writing to expect viewers to remember who Nate was. All they needed to do was drop a line into the breakfast table conversation where Ken and Roman ask Shiv if they can invite him, or when Shiv tells Tom he is coming. None of the dialogue with him made any sense because I didn’t have a clue who he was—we last saw him in, what, the second season? Judging from the discussion up thread, I wasn’t the only one at a loss.

What? Nate was a major character as he is Shiv's ex-boyfriend who she met through Kendall (I think they were college drinking buddies). Nate went into politics and I thought was the COS or a strategist for Gil and they convinced Shiv to come work for Gil. Then Nate propositions Shiv, telling her he still is attracted to her and that he would sleep with her whenever she wanted. Nate has a fiancé who I think is a doctor, but he wants to sleep with Shiv again. They do start sleeping together and this is how Shiv starts cheating on Tom. Shiv even invites Nate and Gil to her wedding, them attend, Nate is flirting with Shiv, Greg sees it and reports it back to Tom. Tom then confronts Nate.

Nate is super sleazy.

DP. Thanks for that recap! I too had forgotten about Nate. Now I'm wondering if Shiv and Nate will end up together to raise Shiv's baby while they cheat on each other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was a wow episode. But I thought it was poor writing to expect viewers to remember who Nate was. All they needed to do was drop a line into the breakfast table conversation where Ken and Roman ask Shiv if they can invite him, or when Shiv tells Tom he is coming. None of the dialogue with him made any sense because I didn’t have a clue who he was—we last saw him in, what, the second season? Judging from the discussion up thread, I wasn’t the only one at a loss.

What? Nate was a major character as he is Shiv's ex-boyfriend who she met through Kendall (I think they were college drinking buddies). Nate went into politics and I thought was the COS or a strategist for Gil and they convinced Shiv to come work for Gil. Then Nate propositions Shiv, telling her he still is attracted to her and that he would sleep with her whenever she wanted. Nate has a fiancé who I think is a doctor, but he wants to sleep with Shiv again. They do start sleeping together and this is how Shiv starts cheating on Tom. Shiv even invites Nate and Gil to her wedding, them attend, Nate is flirting with Shiv, Greg sees it and reports it back to Tom. Tom then confronts Nate.

Nate is super sleazy.

Yeah, Tom threw Nate out of his and Shiv's wedding. Tom walked up to Nate at the wedding reception and took away Nate's wine. That's why Tom grabs a glass of red wine to give to Nate before he goes and talks to him. It was a callback to the wedding scene.

I found it super interesting and really un-Shiv like that she falls all over herself to apologize to Tom for Nate's presence at that party. They have such a toxic dynamic.

[Anonymous]

I think the actor who plays Tom is amazing, because he has a way of making me like him and feel sorry for him, even when he is just completely horrible. That is such a difficult feat to master.