Anonymous wrote:Like PP said, the organizations are unrelated and each makes their own rules. If Girl Scouts USA wanted to allow boys they could probably just change their policies to allow it, but I don't think it aligns with their mission. Girl Scouts is all about empowering girls. I could see how boys might want to join the girls - the troops I've been involved in have had a lot of focus on entrepreneurship, learning about scouts around the world and other cultures, and handcrafting skills and I don't think that is a focus in boy scouts at all.
But anyway, they designed the program with girls in mind - they want to be a safe space for girls and allow girls to have a designed place to take on leadership roles. They cite research on the benefits of all-female environments for girls and also on how girls perform more cautiously or deferentially when boys are present.
Membership is based on identity so trans girls are welcome in girls scouts.
As a parent of a boy and a girl, I absolutely love how there are girl- only spaces for my daughter (she does Girl Scouts and girls on the run- has friends who do girls who code but she isn’t interested). I truly, truly wish there were similar boys-only spaces for my son.
As a mom of two boys, there are plenty of boys only spaces available. The whole of US society centers on whiteness, straightness, and maleness being the neutral standard and any other identity is just that, an “Other” that must be specified and defined. If you don’t understand why people defined by their otherness would want designated spaces or if you feel like the existence of those spaces is somehow denying your sons something they are entitled to, then you are part of reason those spaces are needed in the first place.
DP. That poster may be part of the reason those spaces are needed but her sons aren't. They are kids. And while girls-only spaces are good for girls, it is also true that boys-only spaces are good for boys, combined with coed spaces.
As women continue to advocate for girls- and women-only spaces, it makes no sense to me that they refuse to understand why boys- or men-only spaces might also be a good idea.
Boys have boys only spaces. There's a couple parallels to Girls on the Run for boys. BSA is mostly separated by gender at the pack, troop, or patrol level.
Except they do all of the activities with girls, including camping and camps. So no, they are not boy only spaces.
Not true at all. There are still lots and lots boys-only troops and packs. 95% of Scouting activities will be only within the confines of your troop or pack.
Sure, you may run across some girl Scouts BSA at a regional jamboree, but that's basically a once per year occurrence and no one is forcing your kid to even interact with them.
Scouts BSA can be a "boys only" space if that's what you want for your kid and your family. It still exists, you just need to seek out a troop or pack that caters to boys-only.
It even allows you to filter by "Girl Pack" or "Boy Pack" that are single gender. Within 20 miles of my DC zip code there are 44 boy-only Cub Scout packs. Knock yourself out.
PP you are responding to and I'm very familiar. My son is in BSA. But again, you're missing the point. What used to be exclusively for boys is no longer.
So? How does the policy affect your son if he's in a boys-only pack or troop? I really don't get the complaint. Your son goes to weekly pack/troop meetings + camp outs + other activities in a boys-only space.
What I'm asking is.....what's your point?
It's not a boys only space. There are girls at every event, campout, fundraiser, etc and they get Eagle Scout rank just like boys. There would be nothing wrong if boys had their own space too. It creates logistical problems and we have to make sure that none of the shenanigans go on with 15-16 year olds in the middle of the night, for example.
Change troops? My son's troop is all boys, so there are no girls at events, campouts, or fundraisers (unless they are attending as guests or volunteers).
Our leaving the troop would hardly change the fact that girls would still be there after our departure.
So to recap:
Your son is in a BSA troop. By BSA rules, this is all boys, so most of his experience is going to be a boys only environment. The troop chooses to host some events with a girls troop, though, so it's not the entirety of the experience. Your son could choose to move to a troop that doesn't do that, but that wouldn't be good enough, because the OTHER troop would still be camping near girls. Pointing out to you that this is a problem you could easily solve is the same thing as blaming your son for all of the sexism in history.
Yeah that all makes sense.
For the 15th time it's not a boys only environment. You have to be intentionally obtuse at this point. It's coed in every sense except on paper.
The point of the thread, in case you missed it, is to discuss why girl scouts don't accept boys and BSA accepts girls. Yes, if we left this particular troop which I never said we wanted to do though you suggested it several times, girls would still be a part of it. I wasn't asking you for advice or to solve any problem.
Yes, we do force organizations to accept girls in the name of equity even where it doesn't make practical sense. Yes, it would be good if boys had a space just for themselves the same way you think it's a good idea that girls have a space for themselves. Is that so hard to understand?
Im so confused about who you think forced Boy Scouts to accept girls. That was entirely a decision by the organization formerly known as BSA. No one forced them to do that except for maybe the morman church when they left and the bsa numbers plummeted.
Girl Scouts USA sure as heck didn’t want Boy Scout to go coed
Anonymous wrote:I wish Girl Scouts would change its name to remove "scouts" - it has never been an affiliate of BSA, and the association with BSA does us no favors.
I was a Girl Scout and I went to an all-girls school: I think single sex environments are really important for boys and girls. It's a shame BSA abandoned that - by letting it become family camp with sisters participating but not allowed to join, and then by doing the coed-but-only-sometimes thing. There are other great coed youth groups that do it better, with less baggage, if you want coed.
I very much admire Juliette Gordon Low, but I SO wish she had stuck with Girl Guides instead of girl scouts.
Girls face a lot more issues in life than boys: think about everything teenage girls go through compared to boys. It's nice for my girls to have a safe space to talk about these girl-specific issues without fear of judgement or negative comments by boys.
Anonymous wrote:Like PP said, the organizations are unrelated and each makes their own rules. If Girl Scouts USA wanted to allow boys they could probably just change their policies to allow it, but I don't think it aligns with their mission. Girl Scouts is all about empowering girls. I could see how boys might want to join the girls - the troops I've been involved in have had a lot of focus on entrepreneurship, learning about scouts around the world and other cultures, and handcrafting skills and I don't think that is a focus in boy scouts at all.
But anyway, they designed the program with girls in mind - they want to be a safe space for girls and allow girls to have a designed place to take on leadership roles. They cite research on the benefits of all-female environments for girls and also on how girls perform more cautiously or deferentially when boys are present.
Membership is based on identity so trans girls are welcome in girls scouts.
As a parent of a boy and a girl, I absolutely love how there are girl- only spaces for my daughter (she does Girl Scouts and girls on the run- has friends who do girls who code but she isn’t interested). I truly, truly wish there were similar boys-only spaces for my son.
As a mom of two boys, there are plenty of boys only spaces available. The whole of US society centers on whiteness, straightness, and maleness being the neutral standard and any other identity is just that, an “Other” that must be specified and defined. If you don’t understand why people defined by their otherness would want designated spaces or if you feel like the existence of those spaces is somehow denying your sons something they are entitled to, then you are part of reason those spaces are needed in the first place.
DP. That poster may be part of the reason those spaces are needed but her sons aren't. They are kids. And while girls-only spaces are good for girls, it is also true that boys-only spaces are good for boys, combined with coed spaces.
As women continue to advocate for girls- and women-only spaces, it makes no sense to me that they refuse to understand why boys- or men-only spaces might also be a good idea.
Boys have boys only spaces. There's a couple parallels to Girls on the Run for boys. BSA is mostly separated by gender at the pack, troop, or patrol level.
Except they do all of the activities with girls, including camping and camps. So no, they are not boy only spaces.
Not true at all. There are still lots and lots boys-only troops and packs. 95% of Scouting activities will be only within the confines of your troop or pack.
Sure, you may run across some girl Scouts BSA at a regional jamboree, but that's basically a once per year occurrence and no one is forcing your kid to even interact with them.
Scouts BSA can be a "boys only" space if that's what you want for your kid and your family. It still exists, you just need to seek out a troop or pack that caters to boys-only.
It even allows you to filter by "Girl Pack" or "Boy Pack" that are single gender. Within 20 miles of my DC zip code there are 44 boy-only Cub Scout packs. Knock yourself out.
PP you are responding to and I'm very familiar. My son is in BSA. But again, you're missing the point. What used to be exclusively for boys is no longer.
So? How does the policy affect your son if he's in a boys-only pack or troop? I really don't get the complaint. Your son goes to weekly pack/troop meetings + camp outs + other activities in a boys-only space.
What I'm asking is.....what's your point?
It's not a boys only space. There are girls at every event, campout, fundraiser, etc and they get Eagle Scout rank just like boys. There would be nothing wrong if boys had their own space too. It creates logistical problems and we have to make sure that none of the shenanigans go on with 15-16 year olds in the middle of the night, for example.
Change troops? My son's troop is all boys, so there are no girls at events, campouts, or fundraisers (unless they are attending as guests or volunteers).
Our leaving the troop would hardly change the fact that girls would still be there after our departure.
So to recap:
Your son is in a BSA troop. By BSA rules, this is all boys, so most of his experience is going to be a boys only environment. The troop chooses to host some events with a girls troop, though, so it's not the entirety of the experience. Your son could choose to move to a troop that doesn't do that, but that wouldn't be good enough, because the OTHER troop would still be camping near girls. Pointing out to you that this is a problem you could easily solve is the same thing as blaming your son for all of the sexism in history.
Yeah that all makes sense.
For the 15th time it's not a boys only environment. You have to be intentionally obtuse at this point. It's coed in every sense except on paper.
The point of the thread, in case you missed it, is to discuss why girl scouts don't accept boys and BSA accepts girls. Yes, if we left this particular troop which I never said we wanted to do though you suggested it several times, girls would still be a part of it. I wasn't asking you for advice or to solve any problem.
Yes, we do force organizations to accept girls in the name of equity even where it doesn't make practical sense. Yes, it would be good if boys had a space just for themselves the same way you think it's a good idea that girls have a space for themselves. Is that so hard to understand?
Im so confused about who you think forced Boy Scouts to accept girls. That was entirely a decision by the organization formerly known as BSA. No one forced them to do that except for maybe the morman church when they left and the bsa numbers plummeted.
Girl Scouts USA sure as heck didn’t want Boy Scout to go coed
Girl Scouts actually sued the Boy Scouts when they went coed.
Anonymous wrote:Girls face a lot more issues in life than boys: think about everything teenage girls go through compared to boys. It's nice for my girls to have a safe space to talk about these girl-specific issues without fear of judgement or negative comments by boys.
Hmm - girls in 2024 graduate HS and enter college or university at a significantly higher rate than boys, but boys in the USA somehow “face fewer issues?”
Anonymous wrote:Like PP said, the organizations are unrelated and each makes their own rules. If Girl Scouts USA wanted to allow boys they could probably just change their policies to allow it, but I don't think it aligns with their mission. Girl Scouts is all about empowering girls. I could see how boys might want to join the girls - the troops I've been involved in have had a lot of focus on entrepreneurship, learning about scouts around the world and other cultures, and handcrafting skills and I don't think that is a focus in boy scouts at all.
But anyway, they designed the program with girls in mind - they want to be a safe space for girls and allow girls to have a designed place to take on leadership roles. They cite research on the benefits of all-female environments for girls and also on how girls perform more cautiously or deferentially when boys are present.
Membership is based on identity so trans girls are welcome in girls scouts.
As a parent of a boy and a girl, I absolutely love how there are girl- only spaces for my daughter (she does Girl Scouts and girls on the run- has friends who do girls who code but she isn’t interested). I truly, truly wish there were similar boys-only spaces for my son.
As a mom of two boys, there are plenty of boys only spaces available. The whole of US society centers on whiteness, straightness, and maleness being the neutral standard and any other identity is just that, an “Other” that must be specified and defined. If you don’t understand why people defined by their otherness would want designated spaces or if you feel like the existence of those spaces is somehow denying your sons something they are entitled to, then you are part of reason those spaces are needed in the first place.
DP. That poster may be part of the reason those spaces are needed but her sons aren't. They are kids. And while girls-only spaces are good for girls, it is also true that boys-only spaces are good for boys, combined with coed spaces.
As women continue to advocate for girls- and women-only spaces, it makes no sense to me that they refuse to understand why boys- or men-only spaces might also be a good idea.
Boys have boys only spaces. There's a couple parallels to Girls on the Run for boys. BSA is mostly separated by gender at the pack, troop, or patrol level.
Except they do all of the activities with girls, including camping and camps. So no, they are not boy only spaces.
Not true at all. There are still lots and lots boys-only troops and packs. 95% of Scouting activities will be only within the confines of your troop or pack.
Sure, you may run across some girl Scouts BSA at a regional jamboree, but that's basically a once per year occurrence and no one is forcing your kid to even interact with them.
Scouts BSA can be a "boys only" space if that's what you want for your kid and your family. It still exists, you just need to seek out a troop or pack that caters to boys-only.
It even allows you to filter by "Girl Pack" or "Boy Pack" that are single gender. Within 20 miles of my DC zip code there are 44 boy-only Cub Scout packs. Knock yourself out.
PP you are responding to and I'm very familiar. My son is in BSA. But again, you're missing the point. What used to be exclusively for boys is no longer.
So? How does the policy affect your son if he's in a boys-only pack or troop? I really don't get the complaint. Your son goes to weekly pack/troop meetings + camp outs + other activities in a boys-only space.
What I'm asking is.....what's your point?
It's not a boys only space. There are girls at every event, campout, fundraiser, etc and they get Eagle Scout rank just like boys. There would be nothing wrong if boys had their own space too. It creates logistical problems and we have to make sure that none of the shenanigans go on with 15-16 year olds in the middle of the night, for example.
Change troops? My son's troop is all boys, so there are no girls at events, campouts, or fundraisers (unless they are attending as guests or volunteers).
Our leaving the troop would hardly change the fact that girls would still be there after our departure.
So to recap:
Your son is in a BSA troop. By BSA rules, this is all boys, so most of his experience is going to be a boys only environment. The troop chooses to host some events with a girls troop, though, so it's not the entirety of the experience. Your son could choose to move to a troop that doesn't do that, but that wouldn't be good enough, because the OTHER troop would still be camping near girls. Pointing out to you that this is a problem you could easily solve is the same thing as blaming your son for all of the sexism in history.
Yeah that all makes sense.
For the 15th time it's not a boys only environment. You have to be intentionally obtuse at this point. It's coed in every sense except on paper.
The point of the thread, in case you missed it, is to discuss why girl scouts don't accept boys and BSA accepts girls. Yes, if we left this particular troop which I never said we wanted to do though you suggested it several times, girls would still be a part of it. I wasn't asking you for advice or to solve any problem.
Yes, we do force organizations to accept girls in the name of equity even where it doesn't make practical sense. Yes, it would be good if boys had a space just for themselves the same way you think it's a good idea that girls have a space for themselves. Is that so hard to understand?
Im so confused about who you think forced Boy Scouts to accept girls. That was entirely a decision by the organization formerly known as BSA. No one forced them to do that except for maybe the morman church when they left and the bsa numbers plummeted.
Girl Scouts USA sure as heck didn’t want Boy Scout to go coed
Girl Scouts actually sued the Boy Scouts when they went coed.
Yes but, tbc for some of the weirder PPs, the suit was a trademark action because BSA branded themselves as just "Scouts." It was not a lawsuit trying to make them exclude girls.
Anonymous wrote:Girls face a lot more issues in life than boys: think about everything teenage girls go through compared to boys. It's nice for my girls to have a safe space to talk about these girl-specific issues without fear of judgement or negative comments by boys.
Hmm - girls in 2024 graduate HS and enter college or university at a significantly higher rate than boys, but boys in the USA somehow “face fewer issues?”
What sort of nonsense are you spewing, PP?
Don't be dense, graduation is not the only measure and of course there are girl-specific concerns. There are boy-specific concerns too! Having boys join GS does not help boys have a boy-only environment to address them.
Anonymous wrote:Because the ACLU and other liberal groups decided to attack only the boy scouts and destroy it. Girls scouts are small potatoes compared to BSA. Ergo, we have a weird historical development
LOL no, not at all. Girls were clamoring to officially join Boy Scouts back in the 90s when I was going through the program. Lots of sisters of fellow Boy Scouts would attend like 90% of our events, participate, but were not allowed to earn any of the badges or ranks.
Boy Scouts changed to "Scouts" because out of self-preservation. The organization was in its death throes after the child abuse settlement with victims.
The Mormon Church decided to pull out of Boy Scouts when it was clear the organization needed more independent oversight and their boys composed something like 25% of all Boy Scouts in the U.S.
Admitting girls and changing the name to "Scouts" was just capitalism in action. You need to broaden your customer base to save a failing business.
NP. Addressing only the bold above: Teen girls did have the opportunity to join one of Boy Scouts' programs then and for decades before that. When I was in high schol in the early 1980s I was in a BSA program called Explorers, which had troop-like groups of both boys and girls organized around a specific interest. I was an an Explorers troop for vocal performance. There were others in our area -- one was about boating, I think another was around something agricultural (rather like 4H). But absolutely, tween/teen girls participated in BSA's Explorers equally with boys. I don't know if Explorers or something similar continued to exist, but the idea of girls in BSA was not at all a new thing, when BSA started advertising that girls could join "regular" troops.
Nothing you described says they participated equally. They didn’t earn ranks like boys and so it wasn’t equal.
PP: your argument is the Boy Scouts needed to admit girls to achieve equality.
- how is the Girl Scouts excluding boys contributing to equality ?
Anonymous wrote:Like PP said, the organizations are unrelated and each makes their own rules. If Girl Scouts USA wanted to allow boys they could probably just change their policies to allow it, but I don't think it aligns with their mission. Girl Scouts is all about empowering girls. I could see how boys might want to join the girls - the troops I've been involved in have had a lot of focus on entrepreneurship, learning about scouts around the world and other cultures, and handcrafting skills and I don't think that is a focus in boy scouts at all.
But anyway, they designed the program with girls in mind - they want to be a safe space for girls and allow girls to have a designed place to take on leadership roles. They cite research on the benefits of all-female environments for girls and also on how girls perform more cautiously or deferentially when boys are present.
Membership is based on identity so trans girls are welcome in girls scouts.
As a parent of a boy and a girl, I absolutely love how there are girl- only spaces for my daughter (she does Girl Scouts and girls on the run- has friends who do girls who code but she isn’t interested). I truly, truly wish there were similar boys-only spaces for my son.
As a mom of two boys, there are plenty of boys only spaces available. The whole of US society centers on whiteness, straightness, and maleness being the neutral standard and any other identity is just that, an “Other” that must be specified and defined. If you don’t understand why people defined by their otherness would want designated spaces or if you feel like the existence of those spaces is somehow denying your sons something they are entitled to, then you are part of reason those spaces are needed in the first place.
DP. That poster may be part of the reason those spaces are needed but her sons aren't. They are kids. And while girls-only spaces are good for girls, it is also true that boys-only spaces are good for boys, combined with coed spaces.
As women continue to advocate for girls- and women-only spaces, it makes no sense to me that they refuse to understand why boys- or men-only spaces might also be a good idea.
Boys have boys only spaces. There's a couple parallels to Girls on the Run for boys. BSA is mostly separated by gender at the pack, troop, or patrol level.
Except they do all of the activities with girls, including camping and camps. So no, they are not boy only spaces.
Not true at all. There are still lots and lots boys-only troops and packs. 95% of Scouting activities will be only within the confines of your troop or pack.
Sure, you may run across some girl Scouts BSA at a regional jamboree, but that's basically a once per year occurrence and no one is forcing your kid to even interact with them.
Scouts BSA can be a "boys only" space if that's what you want for your kid and your family. It still exists, you just need to seek out a troop or pack that caters to boys-only.
It even allows you to filter by "Girl Pack" or "Boy Pack" that are single gender. Within 20 miles of my DC zip code there are 44 boy-only Cub Scout packs. Knock yourself out.
PP you are responding to and I'm very familiar. My son is in BSA. But again, you're missing the point. What used to be exclusively for boys is no longer.
So? How does the policy affect your son if he's in a boys-only pack or troop? I really don't get the complaint. Your son goes to weekly pack/troop meetings + camp outs + other activities in a boys-only space.
What I'm asking is.....what's your point?
It's not a boys only space. There are girls at every event, campout, fundraiser, etc and they get Eagle Scout rank just like boys. There would be nothing wrong if boys had their own space too. It creates logistical problems and we have to make sure that none of the shenanigans go on with 15-16 year olds in the middle of the night, for example.
Change troops? My son's troop is all boys, so there are no girls at events, campouts, or fundraisers (unless they are attending as guests or volunteers).
Our leaving the troop would hardly change the fact that girls would still be there after our departure.
So to recap:
Your son is in a BSA troop. By BSA rules, this is all boys, so most of his experience is going to be a boys only environment. The troop chooses to host some events with a girls troop, though, so it's not the entirety of the experience. Your son could choose to move to a troop that doesn't do that, but that wouldn't be good enough, because the OTHER troop would still be camping near girls. Pointing out to you that this is a problem you could easily solve is the same thing as blaming your son for all of the sexism in history.
Yeah that all makes sense.
For the 15th time it's not a boys only environment. You have to be intentionally obtuse at this point. It's coed in every sense except on paper.
The point of the thread, in case you missed it, is to discuss why girl scouts don't accept boys and BSA accepts girls. Yes, if we left this particular troop which I never said we wanted to do though you suggested it several times, girls would still be a part of it. I wasn't asking you for advice or to solve any problem.
Yes, we do force organizations to accept girls in the name of equity even where it doesn't make practical sense. Yes, it would be good if boys had a space just for themselves the same way you think it's a good idea that girls have a space for themselves. Is that so hard to understand?
New poster here:
Buddy, no one knows what the hell you're complaining about. The thing you want - "a boys-only space" - has never existed in Boy Scouting. There were always moms and sisters around decades ago, participating in activities and camp outs.
If you want a boys-only space, send him to an all-boys boarding school in some rural wasteland where he never needs to cross paths with a female.
Buddy, just because your family broke the rules and brought girls to events doesn't mean that boy scouts were not a boy's organization. They might have let the girls in for equity or numbers or money but it doesn't change the fact there were not girl eagle scouts back then. So take your BS and shove it. Girls were not permitted to raise through the rants of BSA back then. I never suggested that my son live in isolation from girls as you suggest he does. It's really ignorant and perhaps why I keep coming back to respond to suggest that some space shouldn't be allowed just for boys.
Dp-
So really it sounds like you’re just butthurt that girls can now become Eagle Scouts? You’re mad that girls can earn the same rank as boys? That it?
Anonymous wrote:Girls face a lot more issues in life than boys: think about everything teenage girls go through compared to boys. It's nice for my girls to have a safe space to talk about these girl-specific issues without fear of judgement or negative comments by boys.
Hmm - girls in 2024 graduate HS and enter college or university at a significantly higher rate than boys, but boys in the USA somehow “face fewer issues?”
What sort of nonsense are you spewing, PP?
Don't be dense, graduation is not the only measure and of course there are girl-specific concerns. There are boy-specific concerns too! Having boys join GS does not help boys have a boy-only environment to address them.
SES is determined overwhelmingly by access and attainment of a university degree.
Don’t try to minimize the importance of SES; to do so would be dense.
Anonymous wrote:Because the ACLU and other liberal groups decided to attack only the boy scouts and destroy it. Girls scouts are small potatoes compared to BSA. Ergo, we have a weird historical development
LOL no, not at all. Girls were clamoring to officially join Boy Scouts back in the 90s when I was going through the program. Lots of sisters of fellow Boy Scouts would attend like 90% of our events, participate, but were not allowed to earn any of the badges or ranks.
Boy Scouts changed to "Scouts" because out of self-preservation. The organization was in its death throes after the child abuse settlement with victims.
The Mormon Church decided to pull out of Boy Scouts when it was clear the organization needed more independent oversight and their boys composed something like 25% of all Boy Scouts in the U.S.
Admitting girls and changing the name to "Scouts" was just capitalism in action. You need to broaden your customer base to save a failing business.
NP. Addressing only the bold above: Teen girls did have the opportunity to join one of Boy Scouts' programs then and for decades before that. When I was in high schol in the early 1980s I was in a BSA program called Explorers, which had troop-like groups of both boys and girls organized around a specific interest. I was an an Explorers troop for vocal performance. There were others in our area -- one was about boating, I think another was around something agricultural (rather like 4H). But absolutely, tween/teen girls participated in BSA's Explorers equally with boys. I don't know if Explorers or something similar continued to exist, but the idea of girls in BSA was not at all a new thing, when BSA started advertising that girls could join "regular" troops.
Nothing you described says they participated equally. They didn’t earn ranks like boys and so it wasn’t equal.
PP: your argument is the Boy Scouts needed to admit girls to achieve equality.
- how is the Girl Scouts excluding boys contributing to equality ?
What? Nobody is making that argument. PP said (as others have) that BSA admits girls for financial reasons, not equality. It was a business choice they made. No one forced them.
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}