Taylor Swift album Tortured Poets Department leaked early?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:55 pages in and missed where someone said she is the best poet and song writer there is.
Can someone link the post, or at lease note the timestamp?
Thanks

+1
Christ almighty, people going off half cocked defensive when some of us just like some darn music and enjoy some lyrics.

I love when people confuse "disagreeing" with "being defensive." It's called an argument. No one is telling you that you can't enjoy Swift's music or her lyrics. They are simply pointing out she's not the only person who writes well. Sheesh.

Except nobody said she was the only one. It’s just the pedants droning about what crap they prefer.

Exactly and it’s in a thread about her and her music. If people don’t like her or her music, why can’t they just skip the thread?

I know, can you believe that people don't understand DCUM is a Taylor Swift fan site and opinions that even mildly criticize her or even just try to contextualize her within the broader culture aren't allowed? Sycophancy only, everyone knows this-- obviously a 55 page thread on an artist will simply be filled with positive reviews and compliments, with no disagreements or other discussion.

/sarcasm

People don’t have to agree with your dissension. That’s how this all works. If you can’t stand it feel free to find another place to argue.

I don't think people are expecting agreement, just voicing opinions. You all are the ones saying it's somehow wrong or unfair or off topic to compare Swift to other musicians are discuss what people don't like about her music in this thread.

I don't even dislike Swift-- I like several songs on this album and find her impressive generally. But I get do bored with the insistance by some fans that she must not be criticized. Everyone can be criticized. Critical comments are on topic. Engage or ignore, but it's childish to throw a fit over the fact that people are taking time to write reasoned criticisms. That's well within bounds.

Stop being so sensitive about it then. The critics have very think skins.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most of her fans haven’t really read much poetry or heard many other singers (outside of pop). So to them she is the most talented. So many are convinced her success is driven solely by pure talent and she is the most successful because she is the most talented. That view really just shows a very small world of music and art. Which for children is fine - but adults should be aware that there is a much bigger and talented world out there.

She is also in a phase of everything she touches turns to good right now. I could take any lyrics or song written by anyone…and if her fans thought she wrote it - they would be the most amazing lyrics ever written by the most talented musician ever.

+1, this nails it. She's a great pop musician. She is not Emily Dickinson and Beethoven rolled into one. It's enough that she is a success at what she actually is, we don't have to pretend she's the second coming.

Interesting how far back you had to go to come up with a genius. Why would young people today read much or care about poetry? Have you seen how watered down their required HS reading is? Schools don't care to teach classics anymore. What current literary genius should any of them listen to?

I'm the PP and here are 5 modern poets off the top of my head that I think young people today would benefit from reading: Mary Oliver (dead but still so relevant), Maggie Smith, Morgan Parker, Ilya Kaminsky, Ada Limón. This is scratching the surface, get a book on 20th century poetry, there is so much greatness out there.

For musicians, I'd be expansive. All the pop/rock great (including Swift) but also Sondheim, Gershwin, Bernstein. The jazz greats -- Mingus, Davis, Monk, and also the stylists like Holliday, Porter, Fitzgerald. Contemporary singer/songwriters like Courtney Barnett, Kurt Vile, Rufus Wainwright. But also look back a bit. Stevie Nicks, Lucinda Williams, George Clinton, Tom Waits. You could go on and on and on and on.

Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. She is not everything, there are so many other people to listen to and read and investigate and internalize. If you seriously cannot name a single contemporary writer or musician who you think is as talented, interesting, and worth reading/listening to as Taylor Swift, you are an idiot and your opinion is to be disregarded.

Nobody is going to listen to their grandparents, great-grandparents music. This is all very old man shaking fist at the clouds.

If you don't realize that some of the people listed above are contemporaries of Taylor Swift, and many others are just one generation behind (and therefore directly informing the culture and art that Taylor is working in), then I beg of you, try reading something OTHER than Taylor Swift liner notes.

I don't even listen to TS but my daughter does. But I also don't listen to shitty jazz music and some of the other questionable choices you listed. To each their own but young people want their own music. There's nothing stopping them from listening to these dusty choices but they don't. Each generation wants their own music. And perhaps modern poetry doesn't speak to them either. For whatever reason, Taylor does. Maybe it's just not for you to understand.

I'm the PP who listed the poets and musicians I think young people today would be interested in. While I think calling Miles Davis "shitty jazz music" kind of shows you to have no taste, I would also point out that I listed Morgan Parker (a 36 year old poet/essayist/novelist who has written at least 5 poems about Beyoncé, among many others) and Courtney Barnett (a 36 year old Australian singer-songwriter who has songs about social media, isolation in the modern age, heartbreak and relationships). I also mentioned Ada Limón and Maggie Smith, both poets in their 40s who are incredibly accessible while also being critically acclaimed -- check out Limón's The Raincoat and Smith's Good Bones for amazing contemporary poems that are clever, evocative, and come with a gut punch. I could also add in Olivia Rodrigo, Lana Del Rey, Boy Genius and its members as individual artists, though I am betting Swift fans are more familiar with those.

I'm not mentioning these people to say "Taylor Swift sucks." I'm mentioning them in response to people who act like Swift is the only contemporary artist worth listening to. I actually think fans of Swift's music would like all of the aforementioned writers and musicians because they have a lot in common (emotionally raw writing that engages with inventive and clever verse). The point is that when people act like NO ONE is doing what Swift is doing right now (false) or that she is the best modern American poet (also false) it simply demonstrates a lack of knowledge.

By the way, I'm only a few years older than Swift and while I listen to tons of contemporary music (including Swift) I also listen to classical music, "shitty jazz", classic rock, all the original singer-songwriters, freaking klezmer music, whatever strikes my fancy. And I know plenty of young people who do the same. The whole point of being young is to be open to anything, not to go all in on one artist who oh-it-just-so-happens is the most commercially successful musician of the decade. Young people listen to Swift and Nirvana and the Beatles and whatever else crosses their path, and they listen with fresh ears and a different outlook and in so doing, they make what is old new again. I feel sorry for people who don't understand this.

I like this post and wonder if I know you in real life. Nice to see talented poets mentioned.

I feel the same way about people’s limited views when they make those statements about Taylor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most of her fans haven’t really read much poetry or heard many other singers (outside of pop). So to them she is the most talented. So many are convinced her success is driven solely by pure talent and she is the most successful because she is the most talented. That view really just shows a very small world of music and art. Which for children is fine - but adults should be aware that there is a much bigger and talented world out there.

She is also in a phase of everything she touches turns to good right now. I could take any lyrics or song written by anyone…and if her fans thought she wrote it - they would be the most amazing lyrics ever written by the most talented musician ever.

+1, this nails it. She's a great pop musician. She is not Emily Dickinson and Beethoven rolled into one. It's enough that she is a success at what she actually is, we don't have to pretend she's the second coming.

Interesting how far back you had to go to come up with a genius. Why would young people today read much or care about poetry? Have you seen how watered down their required HS reading is? Schools don't care to teach classics anymore. What current literary genius should any of them listen to?

I'm the PP and here are 5 modern poets off the top of my head that I think young people today would benefit from reading: Mary Oliver (dead but still so relevant), Maggie Smith, Morgan Parker, Ilya Kaminsky, Ada Limón. This is scratching the surface, get a book on 20th century poetry, there is so much greatness out there.

For musicians, I'd be expansive. All the pop/rock great (including Swift) but also Sondheim, Gershwin, Bernstein. The jazz greats -- Mingus, Davis, Monk, and also the stylists like Holliday, Porter, Fitzgerald. Contemporary singer/songwriters like Courtney Barnett, Kurt Vile, Rufus Wainwright. But also look back a bit. Stevie Nicks, Lucinda Williams, George Clinton, Tom Waits. You could go on and on and on and on.

Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. She is not everything, there are so many other people to listen to and read and investigate and internalize. If you seriously cannot name a single contemporary writer or musician who you think is as talented, interesting, and worth reading/listening to as Taylor Swift, you are an idiot and your opinion is to be disregarded.

Nobody is going to listen to their grandparents, great-grandparents music. This is all very old man shaking fist at the clouds.

If you don't realize that some of the people listed above are contemporaries of Taylor Swift, and many others are just one generation behind (and therefore directly informing the culture and art that Taylor is working in), then I beg of you, try reading something OTHER than Taylor Swift liner notes.

I don't even listen to TS but my daughter does. But I also don't listen to shitty jazz music and some of the other questionable choices you listed. To each their own but young people want their own music. There's nothing stopping them from listening to these dusty choices but they don't. Each generation wants their own music. And perhaps modern poetry doesn't speak to them either. For whatever reason, Taylor does. Maybe it's just not for you to understand.

I'm the PP who listed the poets and musicians I think young people today would be interested in. While I think calling Miles Davis "shitty jazz music" kind of shows you to have no taste, I would also point out that I listed Morgan Parker (a 36 year old poet/essayist/novelist who has written at least 5 poems about Beyoncé, among many others) and Courtney Barnett (a 36 year old Australian singer-songwriter who has songs about social media, isolation in the modern age, heartbreak and relationships). I also mentioned Ada Limón and Maggie Smith, both poets in their 40s who are incredibly accessible while also being critically acclaimed -- check out Limón's The Raincoat and Smith's Good Bones for amazing contemporary poems that are clever, evocative, and come with a gut punch. I could also add in Olivia Rodrigo, Lana Del Rey, Boy Genius and its members as individual artists, though I am betting Swift fans are more familiar with those.

I'm not mentioning these people to say "Taylor Swift sucks." I'm mentioning them in response to people who act like Swift is the only contemporary artist worth listening to. I actually think fans of Swift's music would like all of the aforementioned writers and musicians because they have a lot in common (emotionally raw writing that engages with inventive and clever verse). The point is that when people act like NO ONE is doing what Swift is doing right now (false) or that she is the best modern American poet (also false) it simply demonstrates a lack of knowledge.

By the way, I'm only a few years older than Swift and while I listen to tons of contemporary music (including Swift) I also listen to classical music, "shitty jazz", classic rock, all the original singer-songwriters, freaking klezmer music, whatever strikes my fancy. And I know plenty of young people who do the same. The whole point of being young is to be open to anything, not to go all in on one artist who oh-it-just-so-happens is the most commercially successful musician of the decade. Young people listen to Swift and Nirvana and the Beatles and whatever else crosses their path, and they listen with fresh ears and a different outlook and in so doing, they make what is old new again. I feel sorry for people who don't understand this.

I like this post and wonder if I know you in real life. Nice to see talented poets mentioned.

I feel the same way about people’s limited views when they make those statements about Taylor.

But she is out of touch, TS fans listen to all kinds of music.... they go to emo concerts, country concerts and study/studied English/philosophy/stem in college. They are not a monolith.

I'm all about learning about new writers/poets and musicians but if you think swifties have TS on repeat and don't read, study, and listen to other music your insane.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most of her fans haven’t really read much poetry or heard many other singers (outside of pop). So to them she is the most talented. So many are convinced her success is driven solely by pure talent and she is the most successful because she is the most talented. That view really just shows a very small world of music and art. Which for children is fine - but adults should be aware that there is a much bigger and talented world out there.

She is also in a phase of everything she touches turns to good right now. I could take any lyrics or song written by anyone…and if her fans thought she wrote it - they would be the most amazing lyrics ever written by the most talented musician ever.

+1, this nails it. She's a great pop musician. She is not Emily Dickinson and Beethoven rolled into one. It's enough that she is a success at what she actually is, we don't have to pretend she's the second coming.

Interesting how far back you had to go to come up with a genius. Why would young people today read much or care about poetry? Have you seen how watered down their required HS reading is? Schools don't care to teach classics anymore. What current literary genius should any of them listen to?

I'm the PP and here are 5 modern poets off the top of my head that I think young people today would benefit from reading: Mary Oliver (dead but still so relevant), Maggie Smith, Morgan Parker, Ilya Kaminsky, Ada Limón. This is scratching the surface, get a book on 20th century poetry, there is so much greatness out there.

For musicians, I'd be expansive. All the pop/rock great (including Swift) but also Sondheim, Gershwin, Bernstein. The jazz greats -- Mingus, Davis, Monk, and also the stylists like Holliday, Porter, Fitzgerald. Contemporary singer/songwriters like Courtney Barnett, Kurt Vile, Rufus Wainwright. But also look back a bit. Stevie Nicks, Lucinda Williams, George Clinton, Tom Waits. You could go on and on and on and on.

Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. She is not everything, there are so many other people to listen to and read and investigate and internalize. If you seriously cannot name a single contemporary writer or musician who you think is as talented, interesting, and worth reading/listening to as Taylor Swift, you are an idiot and your opinion is to be disregarded.

Nobody is going to listen to their grandparents, great-grandparents music. This is all very old man shaking fist at the clouds.

If you don't realize that some of the people listed above are contemporaries of Taylor Swift, and many others are just one generation behind (and therefore directly informing the culture and art that Taylor is working in), then I beg of you, try reading something OTHER than Taylor Swift liner notes.

I don't even listen to TS but my daughter does. But I also don't listen to shitty jazz music and some of the other questionable choices you listed. To each their own but young people want their own music. There's nothing stopping them from listening to these dusty choices but they don't. Each generation wants their own music. And perhaps modern poetry doesn't speak to them either. For whatever reason, Taylor does. Maybe it's just not for you to understand.

I'm the PP who listed the poets and musicians I think young people today would be interested in. While I think calling Miles Davis "shitty jazz music" kind of shows you to have no taste, I would also point out that I listed Morgan Parker (a 36 year old poet/essayist/novelist who has written at least 5 poems about Beyoncé, among many others) and Courtney Barnett (a 36 year old Australian singer-songwriter who has songs about social media, isolation in the modern age, heartbreak and relationships). I also mentioned Ada Limón and Maggie Smith, both poets in their 40s who are incredibly accessible while also being critically acclaimed -- check out Limón's The Raincoat and Smith's Good Bones for amazing contemporary poems that are clever, evocative, and come with a gut punch. I could also add in Olivia Rodrigo, Lana Del Rey, Boy Genius and its members as individual artists, though I am betting Swift fans are more familiar with those.

I'm not mentioning these people to say "Taylor Swift sucks." I'm mentioning them in response to people who act like Swift is the only contemporary artist worth listening to. I actually think fans of Swift's music would like all of the aforementioned writers and musicians because they have a lot in common (emotionally raw writing that engages with inventive and clever verse). The point is that when people act like NO ONE is doing what Swift is doing right now (false) or that she is the best modern American poet (also false) it simply demonstrates a lack of knowledge.

By the way, I'm only a few years older than Swift and while I listen to tons of contemporary music (including Swift) I also listen to classical music, "shitty jazz", classic rock, all the original singer-songwriters, freaking klezmer music, whatever strikes my fancy. And I know plenty of young people who do the same. The whole point of being young is to be open to anything, not to go all in on one artist who oh-it-just-so-happens is the most commercially successful musician of the decade. Young people listen to Swift and Nirvana and the Beatles and whatever else crosses their path, and they listen with fresh ears and a different outlook and in so doing, they make what is old new again. I feel sorry for people who don't understand this.

I like this post and wonder if I know you in real life. Nice to see talented poets mentioned.

I feel the same way about people’s limited views when they make those statements about Taylor.

But she is out of touch, TS fans listen to all kinds of music.... they go to emo concerts, country concerts and study/studied English/philosophy/stem in college. They are not a monolith.

I'm all about learning about new writers/poets and musicians but if you think swifties have TS on repeat and don't read, study, and listen to other music your insane.

This is true. And it's funny that the snob PP Olivia Rodrigo is so great when her lyrics include screaming "It's a bad idea, right" over and over. If you like that, you don't have much room to criticize Taylor and her lyrics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most of her fans haven’t really read much poetry or heard many other singers (outside of pop). So to them she is the most talented. So many are convinced her success is driven solely by pure talent and she is the most successful because she is the most talented. That view really just shows a very small world of music and art. Which for children is fine - but adults should be aware that there is a much bigger and talented world out there.

She is also in a phase of everything she touches turns to good right now. I could take any lyrics or song written by anyone…and if her fans thought she wrote it - they would be the most amazing lyrics ever written by the most talented musician ever.

+1, this nails it. She's a great pop musician. She is not Emily Dickinson and Beethoven rolled into one. It's enough that she is a success at what she actually is, we don't have to pretend she's the second coming.

Interesting how far back you had to go to come up with a genius. Why would young people today read much or care about poetry? Have you seen how watered down their required HS reading is? Schools don't care to teach classics anymore. What current literary genius should any of them listen to?

I'm the PP and here are 5 modern poets off the top of my head that I think young people today would benefit from reading: Mary Oliver (dead but still so relevant), Maggie Smith, Morgan Parker, Ilya Kaminsky, Ada Limón. This is scratching the surface, get a book on 20th century poetry, there is so much greatness out there.

For musicians, I'd be expansive. All the pop/rock great (including Swift) but also Sondheim, Gershwin, Bernstein. The jazz greats -- Mingus, Davis, Monk, and also the stylists like Holliday, Porter, Fitzgerald. Contemporary singer/songwriters like Courtney Barnett, Kurt Vile, Rufus Wainwright. But also look back a bit. Stevie Nicks, Lucinda Williams, George Clinton, Tom Waits. You could go on and on and on and on.

Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. She is not everything, there are so many other people to listen to and read and investigate and internalize. If you seriously cannot name a single contemporary writer or musician who you think is as talented, interesting, and worth reading/listening to as Taylor Swift, you are an idiot and your opinion is to be disregarded.

Nobody is going to listen to their grandparents, great-grandparents music. This is all very old man shaking fist at the clouds.

If you don't realize that some of the people listed above are contemporaries of Taylor Swift, and many others are just one generation behind (and therefore directly informing the culture and art that Taylor is working in), then I beg of you, try reading something OTHER than Taylor Swift liner notes.

I don't even listen to TS but my daughter does. But I also don't listen to shitty jazz music and some of the other questionable choices you listed. To each their own but young people want their own music. There's nothing stopping them from listening to these dusty choices but they don't. Each generation wants their own music. And perhaps modern poetry doesn't speak to them either. For whatever reason, Taylor does. Maybe it's just not for you to understand.

I'm the PP who listed the poets and musicians I think young people today would be interested in. While I think calling Miles Davis "shitty jazz music" kind of shows you to have no taste, I would also point out that I listed Morgan Parker (a 36 year old poet/essayist/novelist who has written at least 5 poems about Beyoncé, among many others) and Courtney Barnett (a 36 year old Australian singer-songwriter who has songs about social media, isolation in the modern age, heartbreak and relationships). I also mentioned Ada Limón and Maggie Smith, both poets in their 40s who are incredibly accessible while also being critically acclaimed -- check out Limón's The Raincoat and Smith's Good Bones for amazing contemporary poems that are clever, evocative, and come with a gut punch. I could also add in Olivia Rodrigo, Lana Del Rey, Boy Genius and its members as individual artists, though I am betting Swift fans are more familiar with those.

I'm not mentioning these people to say "Taylor Swift sucks." I'm mentioning them in response to people who act like Swift is the only contemporary artist worth listening to. I actually think fans of Swift's music would like all of the aforementioned writers and musicians because they have a lot in common (emotionally raw writing that engages with inventive and clever verse). The point is that when people act like NO ONE is doing what Swift is doing right now (false) or that she is the best modern American poet (also false) it simply demonstrates a lack of knowledge.

By the way, I'm only a few years older than Swift and while I listen to tons of contemporary music (including Swift) I also listen to classical music, "shitty jazz", classic rock, all the original singer-songwriters, freaking klezmer music, whatever strikes my fancy. And I know plenty of young people who do the same. The whole point of being young is to be open to anything, not to go all in on one artist who oh-it-just-so-happens is the most commercially successful musician of the decade. Young people listen to Swift and Nirvana and the Beatles and whatever else crosses their path, and they listen with fresh ears and a different outlook and in so doing, they make what is old new again. I feel sorry for people who don't understand this.

I like this post and wonder if I know you in real life. Nice to see talented poets mentioned.

I feel the same way about people’s limited views when they make those statements about Taylor.

But she is out of touch, TS fans listen to all kinds of music.... they go to emo concerts, country concerts and study/studied English/philosophy/stem in college. They are not a monolith.

I'm all about learning about new writers/poets and musicians but if you think swifties have TS on repeat and don't read, study, and listen to other music your insane.

This is true. And it's funny that the snob PP Olivia Rodrigo is so great when her lyrics include screaming "It's a bad idea, right" over and over. If you like that, you don't have much room to criticize Taylor and her lyrics.

there is room to like lots of different people and types of music/literature/etc

This reminds me of all the arguments about Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera... can't we just like them both the same.

I mean you can argue all day long if chinese is better than thai food.. it's all good to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most of her fans haven’t really read much poetry or heard many other singers (outside of pop). So to them she is the most talented. So many are convinced her success is driven solely by pure talent and she is the most successful because she is the most talented. That view really just shows a very small world of music and art. Which for children is fine - but adults should be aware that there is a much bigger and talented world out there.

She is also in a phase of everything she touches turns to good right now. I could take any lyrics or song written by anyone…and if her fans thought she wrote it - they would be the most amazing lyrics ever written by the most talented musician ever.

+1, this nails it. She's a great pop musician. She is not Emily Dickinson and Beethoven rolled into one. It's enough that she is a success at what she actually is, we don't have to pretend she's the second coming.

Interesting how far back you had to go to come up with a genius. Why would young people today read much or care about poetry? Have you seen how watered down their required HS reading is? Schools don't care to teach classics anymore. What current literary genius should any of them listen to?

I'm the PP and here are 5 modern poets off the top of my head that I think young people today would benefit from reading: Mary Oliver (dead but still so relevant), Maggie Smith, Morgan Parker, Ilya Kaminsky, Ada Limón. This is scratching the surface, get a book on 20th century poetry, there is so much greatness out there.

For musicians, I'd be expansive. All the pop/rock great (including Swift) but also Sondheim, Gershwin, Bernstein. The jazz greats -- Mingus, Davis, Monk, and also the stylists like Holliday, Porter, Fitzgerald. Contemporary singer/songwriters like Courtney Barnett, Kurt Vile, Rufus Wainwright. But also look back a bit. Stevie Nicks, Lucinda Williams, George Clinton, Tom Waits. You could go on and on and on and on.

Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. She is not everything, there are so many other people to listen to and read and investigate and internalize. If you seriously cannot name a single contemporary writer or musician who you think is as talented, interesting, and worth reading/listening to as Taylor Swift, you are an idiot and your opinion is to be disregarded.

Nobody is going to listen to their grandparents, great-grandparents music. This is all very old man shaking fist at the clouds.

If you don't realize that some of the people listed above are contemporaries of Taylor Swift, and many others are just one generation behind (and therefore directly informing the culture and art that Taylor is working in), then I beg of you, try reading something OTHER than Taylor Swift liner notes.

I don't even listen to TS but my daughter does. But I also don't listen to shitty jazz music and some of the other questionable choices you listed. To each their own but young people want their own music. There's nothing stopping them from listening to these dusty choices but they don't. Each generation wants their own music. And perhaps modern poetry doesn't speak to them either. For whatever reason, Taylor does. Maybe it's just not for you to understand.

I'm the PP who listed the poets and musicians I think young people today would be interested in. While I think calling Miles Davis "shitty jazz music" kind of shows you to have no taste, I would also point out that I listed Morgan Parker (a 36 year old poet/essayist/novelist who has written at least 5 poems about Beyoncé, among many others) and Courtney Barnett (a 36 year old Australian singer-songwriter who has songs about social media, isolation in the modern age, heartbreak and relationships). I also mentioned Ada Limón and Maggie Smith, both poets in their 40s who are incredibly accessible while also being critically acclaimed -- check out Limón's The Raincoat and Smith's Good Bones for amazing contemporary poems that are clever, evocative, and come with a gut punch. I could also add in Olivia Rodrigo, Lana Del Rey, Boy Genius and its members as individual artists, though I am betting Swift fans are more familiar with those.

I'm not mentioning these people to say "Taylor Swift sucks." I'm mentioning them in response to people who act like Swift is the only contemporary artist worth listening to. I actually think fans of Swift's music would like all of the aforementioned writers and musicians because they have a lot in common (emotionally raw writing that engages with inventive and clever verse). The point is that when people act like NO ONE is doing what Swift is doing right now (false) or that she is the best modern American poet (also false) it simply demonstrates a lack of knowledge.

By the way, I'm only a few years older than Swift and while I listen to tons of contemporary music (including Swift) I also listen to classical music, "shitty jazz", classic rock, all the original singer-songwriters, freaking klezmer music, whatever strikes my fancy. And I know plenty of young people who do the same. The whole point of being young is to be open to anything, not to go all in on one artist who oh-it-just-so-happens is the most commercially successful musician of the decade. Young people listen to Swift and Nirvana and the Beatles and whatever else crosses their path, and they listen with fresh ears and a different outlook and in so doing, they make what is old new again. I feel sorry for people who don't understand this.

I like this post and wonder if I know you in real life. Nice to see talented poets mentioned.

I feel the same way about people’s limited views when they make those statements about Taylor.

But she is out of touch, TS fans listen to all kinds of music.... they go to emo concerts, country concerts and study/studied English/philosophy/stem in college. They are not a monolith.

I'm all about learning about new writers/poets and musicians but if you think swifties have TS on repeat and don't read, study, and listen to other music your insane.

This is true. And it's funny that the snob PP Olivia Rodrigo is so great when her lyrics include screaming "It's a bad idea, right" over and over. If you like that, you don't have much room to criticize Taylor and her lyrics.

there is room to like lots of different people and types of music/literature/etc

This reminds me of all the arguments about Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera... can't we just like them both the same.

I mean you can argue all day long if chinese is better than thai food.. it's all good to me.

It's fine but people come in here to insult others. They aren't saying what you're saying. They are saying they don't even like Chinese, it's Thai all the way, and if you like Chinese you have bad taste and don't even know what good food is. And if there is any push back or rebutting they cry that criticism isn't allowed and weren't aware that this was only a Chinese food only fan group. Instead of just saying they don't fully get it and doesn't appeal to them. Different people like different things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most of her fans haven’t really read much poetry or heard many other singers (outside of pop). So to them she is the most talented. So many are convinced her success is driven solely by pure talent and she is the most successful because she is the most talented. That view really just shows a very small world of music and art. Which for children is fine - but adults should be aware that there is a much bigger and talented world out there.

She is also in a phase of everything she touches turns to good right now. I could take any lyrics or song written by anyone…and if her fans thought she wrote it - they would be the most amazing lyrics ever written by the most talented musician ever.

+1, this nails it. She's a great pop musician. She is not Emily Dickinson and Beethoven rolled into one. It's enough that she is a success at what she actually is, we don't have to pretend she's the second coming.

Interesting how far back you had to go to come up with a genius. Why would young people today read much or care about poetry? Have you seen how watered down their required HS reading is? Schools don't care to teach classics anymore. What current literary genius should any of them listen to?

I'm the PP and here are 5 modern poets off the top of my head that I think young people today would benefit from reading: Mary Oliver (dead but still so relevant), Maggie Smith, Morgan Parker, Ilya Kaminsky, Ada Limón. This is scratching the surface, get a book on 20th century poetry, there is so much greatness out there.

For musicians, I'd be expansive. All the pop/rock great (including Swift) but also Sondheim, Gershwin, Bernstein. The jazz greats -- Mingus, Davis, Monk, and also the stylists like Holliday, Porter, Fitzgerald. Contemporary singer/songwriters like Courtney Barnett, Kurt Vile, Rufus Wainwright. But also look back a bit. Stevie Nicks, Lucinda Williams, George Clinton, Tom Waits. You could go on and on and on and on.

Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. She is not everything, there are so many other people to listen to and read and investigate and internalize. If you seriously cannot name a single contemporary writer or musician who you think is as talented, interesting, and worth reading/listening to as Taylor Swift, you are an idiot and your opinion is to be disregarded.

Nobody is going to listen to their grandparents, great-grandparents music. This is all very old man shaking fist at the clouds.

If you don't realize that some of the people listed above are contemporaries of Taylor Swift, and many others are just one generation behind (and therefore directly informing the culture and art that Taylor is working in), then I beg of you, try reading something OTHER than Taylor Swift liner notes.

I don't even listen to TS but my daughter does. But I also don't listen to shitty jazz music and some of the other questionable choices you listed. To each their own but young people want their own music. There's nothing stopping them from listening to these dusty choices but they don't. Each generation wants their own music. And perhaps modern poetry doesn't speak to them either. For whatever reason, Taylor does. Maybe it's just not for you to understand.

I'm the PP who listed the poets and musicians I think young people today would be interested in. While I think calling Miles Davis "shitty jazz music" kind of shows you to have no taste, I would also point out that I listed Morgan Parker (a 36 year old poet/essayist/novelist who has written at least 5 poems about Beyoncé, among many others) and Courtney Barnett (a 36 year old Australian singer-songwriter who has songs about social media, isolation in the modern age, heartbreak and relationships). I also mentioned Ada Limón and Maggie Smith, both poets in their 40s who are incredibly accessible while also being critically acclaimed -- check out Limón's The Raincoat and Smith's Good Bones for amazing contemporary poems that are clever, evocative, and come with a gut punch. I could also add in Olivia Rodrigo, Lana Del Rey, Boy Genius and its members as individual artists, though I am betting Swift fans are more familiar with those.

I'm not mentioning these people to say "Taylor Swift sucks." I'm mentioning them in response to people who act like Swift is the only contemporary artist worth listening to. I actually think fans of Swift's music would like all of the aforementioned writers and musicians because they have a lot in common (emotionally raw writing that engages with inventive and clever verse). The point is that when people act like NO ONE is doing what Swift is doing right now (false) or that she is the best modern American poet (also false) it simply demonstrates a lack of knowledge.

By the way, I'm only a few years older than Swift and while I listen to tons of contemporary music (including Swift) I also listen to classical music, "shitty jazz", classic rock, all the original singer-songwriters, freaking klezmer music, whatever strikes my fancy. And I know plenty of young people who do the same. The whole point of being young is to be open to anything, not to go all in on one artist who oh-it-just-so-happens is the most commercially successful musician of the decade. Young people listen to Swift and Nirvana and the Beatles and whatever else crosses their path, and they listen with fresh ears and a different outlook and in so doing, they make what is old new again. I feel sorry for people who don't understand this.

I like this post and wonder if I know you in real life. Nice to see talented poets mentioned.

I feel the same way about people’s limited views when they make those statements about Taylor.

But she is out of touch, TS fans listen to all kinds of music.... they go to emo concerts, country concerts and study/studied English/philosophy/stem in college. They are not a monolith.

I'm all about learning about new writers/poets and musicians but if you think swifties have TS on repeat and don't read, study, and listen to other music your insane.

This is true. And it's funny that the snob PP Olivia Rodrigo is so great when her lyrics include screaming "It's a bad idea, right" over and over. If you like that, you don't have much room to criticize Taylor and her lyrics.

there is room to like lots of different people and types of music/literature/etc

This reminds me of all the arguments about Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera... can't we just like them both the same.

I mean you can argue all day long if chinese is better than thai food.. it's all good to me.

Oh come on!!! Thai is superior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am curious how the Eras tour will look in Europe. We are going to see her this summer and hope to hear some of these new songs live. Obsessed with the new album.

Wouldn’t it be fitting if she and Matty got back together and she brought him on stage to sing Post Malone’s part in Fortnight at her August Wembley show in London at the end of the European leg of her tour?

Here is to hoping! I love me some epic love story with an ending that no one could have predicted (but a mastermind).

This is not an epic love story. It's toxic as f**k.

Yeah but Taylor really loved Matty didn't she? I thought she was just having a summer fling after breaking up with Joe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh ok currently over 100 pages of relationship chat about her but uhh her music is Soo much more than that. Apparently. Lol.

You understand a DCUM thread does not define who she actually is, right? Especially considering 95% of the people posting on threads about her on this forum openly do not know anything about her music and base all their opinions on their perception of her as someone who just has bad relationships.

It's like you need her to possess depths that she doesn't have to justify all the time spent focused on her.

We just … like … the music

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am curious how the Eras tour will look in Europe. We are going to see her this summer and hope to hear some of these new songs live. Obsessed with the new album.

Wouldn’t it be fitting if she and Matty got back together and she brought him on stage to sing Post Malone’s part in Fortnight at her August Wembley show in London at the end of the European leg of her tour?

Here is to hoping! I love me some epic love story with an ending that no one could have predicted (but a mastermind).

This is not an epic love story. It's toxic as f**k.

Yeah but Taylor really loved Matty didn't she? I thought she was just having a summer fling after breaking up with Joe.

Guys, listen to the whole album! She knows how toxic this all was which is in the lyrics/vinyl pages, etc. She even sings about how once it wasn't forbidden it didn't work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I love how So Long, London starts, remind me of the creepy music at my Catholic Church or all the mobster movies that always have creepy catholic music.

I like all the allusions ... Sisyphus... drilling the safe.... but I especially love the line "how much sad did you think I had"

I love Peter's obvious allusion to Peter pan syndrome and he is the leader of lost boys.

I love the line promises ocean deep but never to keep.

People will act like she’s not a great musician as if the Beatles didn’t get huge off of lyrics like “she loves me yeah yeah yeah yeah.” She is good at what she does .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most of her fans haven’t really read much poetry or heard many other singers (outside of pop). So to them she is the most talented. So many are convinced her success is driven solely by pure talent and she is the most successful because she is the most talented. That view really just shows a very small world of music and art. Which for children is fine - but adults should be aware that there is a much bigger and talented world out there.

She is also in a phase of everything she touches turns to good right now. I could take any lyrics or song written by anyone…and if her fans thought she wrote it - they would be the most amazing lyrics ever written by the most talented musician ever.

+1, this nails it. She's a great pop musician. She is not Emily Dickinson and Beethoven rolled into one. It's enough that she is a success at what she actually is, we don't have to pretend she's the second coming.

Interesting how far back you had to go to come up with a genius. Why would young people today read much or care about poetry? Have you seen how watered down their required HS reading is? Schools don't care to teach classics anymore. What current literary genius should any of them listen to?

I'm the PP and here are 5 modern poets off the top of my head that I think young people today would benefit from reading: Mary Oliver (dead but still so relevant), Maggie Smith, Morgan Parker, Ilya Kaminsky, Ada Limón. This is scratching the surface, get a book on 20th century poetry, there is so much greatness out there.

For musicians, I'd be expansive. All the pop/rock great (including Swift) but also Sondheim, Gershwin, Bernstein. The jazz greats -- Mingus, Davis, Monk, and also the stylists like Holliday, Porter, Fitzgerald. Contemporary singer/songwriters like Courtney Barnett, Kurt Vile, Rufus Wainwright. But also look back a bit. Stevie Nicks, Lucinda Williams, George Clinton, Tom Waits. You could go on and on and on and on.

Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. She is not everything, there are so many other people to listen to and read and investigate and internalize. If you seriously cannot name a single contemporary writer or musician who you think is as talented, interesting, and worth reading/listening to as Taylor Swift, you are an idiot and your opinion is to be disregarded.

Nobody is going to listen to their grandparents, great-grandparents music. This is all very old man shaking fist at the clouds.

If you don't realize that some of the people listed above are contemporaries of Taylor Swift, and many others are just one generation behind (and therefore directly informing the culture and art that Taylor is working in), then I beg of you, try reading something OTHER than Taylor Swift liner notes.

I don't even listen to TS but my daughter does. But I also don't listen to shitty jazz music and some of the other questionable choices you listed. To each their own but young people want their own music. There's nothing stopping them from listening to these dusty choices but they don't. Each generation wants their own music. And perhaps modern poetry doesn't speak to them either. For whatever reason, Taylor does. Maybe it's just not for you to understand.

I'm the PP who listed the poets and musicians I think young people today would be interested in. While I think calling Miles Davis "shitty jazz music" kind of shows you to have no taste, I would also point out that I listed Morgan Parker (a 36 year old poet/essayist/novelist who has written at least 5 poems about Beyoncé, among many others) and Courtney Barnett (a 36 year old Australian singer-songwriter who has songs about social media, isolation in the modern age, heartbreak and relationships). I also mentioned Ada Limón and Maggie Smith, both poets in their 40s who are incredibly accessible while also being critically acclaimed -- check out Limón's The Raincoat and Smith's Good Bones for amazing contemporary poems that are clever, evocative, and come with a gut punch. I could also add in Olivia Rodrigo, Lana Del Rey, Boy Genius and its members as individual artists, though I am betting Swift fans are more familiar with those.

I'm not mentioning these people to say "Taylor Swift sucks." I'm mentioning them in response to people who act like Swift is the only contemporary artist worth listening to. I actually think fans of Swift's music would like all of the aforementioned writers and musicians because they have a lot in common (emotionally raw writing that engages with inventive and clever verse). The point is that when people act like NO ONE is doing what Swift is doing right now (false) or that she is the best modern American poet (also false) it simply demonstrates a lack of knowledge.

By the way, I'm only a few years older than Swift and while I listen to tons of contemporary music (including Swift) I also listen to classical music, "shitty jazz", classic rock, all the original singer-songwriters, freaking klezmer music, whatever strikes my fancy. And I know plenty of young people who do the same. The whole point of being young is to be open to anything, not to go all in on one artist who oh-it-just-so-happens is the most commercially successful musician of the decade. Young people listen to Swift and Nirvana and the Beatles and whatever else crosses their path, and they listen with fresh ears and a different outlook and in so doing, they make what is old new again. I feel sorry for people who don't understand this.

I like this post and wonder if I know you in real life. Nice to see talented poets mentioned.

I feel the same way about people’s limited views when they make those statements about Taylor.

But she is out of touch, TS fans listen to all kinds of music.... they go to emo concerts, country concerts and study/studied English/philosophy/stem in college. They are not a monolith.

I'm all about learning about new writers/poets and musicians but if you think swifties have TS on repeat and don't read, study, and listen to other music your insane.

Her fans are not a monolith. The pub had to hire security because it was mobbed by her fan base because the name of the pub was mentioned in a song. There are also many on here who think Taylor is elevated above the rest - which shows they do not read or study or listen to other music. Sure there are fans for whom Taylor isn't an obsession and isn't anything special and is just one of many artists on their playlist and blends in with the rest - but there haven't been many of those on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most of her fans haven’t really read much poetry or heard many other singers (outside of pop). So to them she is the most talented. So many are convinced her success is driven solely by pure talent and she is the most successful because she is the most talented. That view really just shows a very small world of music and art. Which for children is fine - but adults should be aware that there is a much bigger and talented world out there.

She is also in a phase of everything she touches turns to good right now. I could take any lyrics or song written by anyone…and if her fans thought she wrote it - they would be the most amazing lyrics ever written by the most talented musician ever.

+1, this nails it. She's a great pop musician. She is not Emily Dickinson and Beethoven rolled into one. It's enough that she is a success at what she actually is, we don't have to pretend she's the second coming.

Interesting how far back you had to go to come up with a genius. Why would young people today read much or care about poetry? Have you seen how watered down their required HS reading is? Schools don't care to teach classics anymore. What current literary genius should any of them listen to?

I'm the PP and here are 5 modern poets off the top of my head that I think young people today would benefit from reading: Mary Oliver (dead but still so relevant), Maggie Smith, Morgan Parker, Ilya Kaminsky, Ada Limón. This is scratching the surface, get a book on 20th century poetry, there is so much greatness out there.

For musicians, I'd be expansive. All the pop/rock great (including Swift) but also Sondheim, Gershwin, Bernstein. The jazz greats -- Mingus, Davis, Monk, and also the stylists like Holliday, Porter, Fitzgerald. Contemporary singer/songwriters like Courtney Barnett, Kurt Vile, Rufus Wainwright. But also look back a bit. Stevie Nicks, Lucinda Williams, George Clinton, Tom Waits. You could go on and on and on and on.

Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. Taylor Swift is talented. She is not everything, there are so many other people to listen to and read and investigate and internalize. If you seriously cannot name a single contemporary writer or musician who you think is as talented, interesting, and worth reading/listening to as Taylor Swift, you are an idiot and your opinion is to be disregarded.

Nobody is going to listen to their grandparents, great-grandparents music. This is all very old man shaking fist at the clouds.

If you don't realize that some of the people listed above are contemporaries of Taylor Swift, and many others are just one generation behind (and therefore directly informing the culture and art that Taylor is working in), then I beg of you, try reading something OTHER than Taylor Swift liner notes.

I don't even listen to TS but my daughter does. But I also don't listen to shitty jazz music and some of the other questionable choices you listed. To each their own but young people want their own music. There's nothing stopping them from listening to these dusty choices but they don't. Each generation wants their own music. And perhaps modern poetry doesn't speak to them either. For whatever reason, Taylor does. Maybe it's just not for you to understand.

I'm the PP who listed the poets and musicians I think young people today would be interested in. While I think calling Miles Davis "shitty jazz music" kind of shows you to have no taste, I would also point out that I listed Morgan Parker (a 36 year old poet/essayist/novelist who has written at least 5 poems about Beyoncé, among many others) and Courtney Barnett (a 36 year old Australian singer-songwriter who has songs about social media, isolation in the modern age, heartbreak and relationships). I also mentioned Ada Limón and Maggie Smith, both poets in their 40s who are incredibly accessible while also being critically acclaimed -- check out Limón's The Raincoat and Smith's Good Bones for amazing contemporary poems that are clever, evocative, and come with a gut punch. I could also add in Olivia Rodrigo, Lana Del Rey, Boy Genius and its members as individual artists, though I am betting Swift fans are more familiar with those.

I'm not mentioning these people to say "Taylor Swift sucks." I'm mentioning them in response to people who act like Swift is the only contemporary artist worth listening to. I actually think fans of Swift's music would like all of the aforementioned writers and musicians because they have a lot in common (emotionally raw writing that engages with inventive and clever verse). The point is that when people act like NO ONE is doing what Swift is doing right now (false) or that she is the best modern American poet (also false) it simply demonstrates a lack of knowledge.

By the way, I'm only a few years older than Swift and while I listen to tons of contemporary music (including Swift) I also listen to classical music, "shitty jazz", classic rock, all the original singer-songwriters, freaking klezmer music, whatever strikes my fancy. And I know plenty of young people who do the same. The whole point of being young is to be open to anything, not to go all in on one artist who oh-it-just-so-happens is the most commercially successful musician of the decade. Young people listen to Swift and Nirvana and the Beatles and whatever else crosses their path, and they listen with fresh ears and a different outlook and in so doing, they make what is old new again. I feel sorry for people who don't understand this.

I like this post and wonder if I know you in real life. Nice to see talented poets mentioned.

I feel the same way about people’s limited views when they make those statements about Taylor.

But she is out of touch, TS fans listen to all kinds of music.... they go to emo concerts, country concerts and study/studied English/philosophy/stem in college. They are not a monolith.

I'm all about learning about new writers/poets and musicians but if you think swifties have TS on repeat and don't read, study, and listen to other music your insane.

Her fans are not a monolith. The pub had to hire security because it was mobbed by her fan base because the name of the pub was mentioned in a song. There are also many on here who think Taylor is elevated above the rest - which shows they do not read or study or listen to other music. Sure there are fans for whom Taylor isn't an obsession and isn't anything special and is just one of many artists on their playlist and blends in with the rest - but there haven't been many of those on this thread.

How dare her fans elevate her over whatever music you think is better.

[Anonymous]

Who are you guys TALKING about? So many strawmen. I am a Taylor fan. I think she’s great at what she does and has a unique talent for connecting with people’s emotions with her music. She’s a prolific songwriter and a rare kind of entertainer. Any of us would be awed of her talent if she were our daughter or sister! I also think Celine Dion is a better voice, Beyonce is doing more interesting and innovative things with her music, Michael Jackson was a better dancer, Prince had more charisma, Nirvana was more groundbreaking. Liking Taylor and truly enjoying her as an artist does not mean we don’t appreciate other artists or think nobody can surpass her in any area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I love how So Long, London starts, remind me of the creepy music at my Catholic Church or all the mobster movies that always have creepy catholic music.

I like all the allusions ... Sisyphus... drilling the safe.... but I especially love the line "how much sad did you think I had"

I love Peter's obvious allusion to Peter pan syndrome and he is the leader of lost boys.

I love the line promises ocean deep but never to keep.

People will act like she’s not a great musician as if the Beatles didn’t get huge off of lyrics like “she loves me yeah yeah yeah yeah.” She is good at what she does .

on Carpool Karaoke Paul McCartney said his dad was so mad they said yeah yeah yeah he wanted them to say yes.

She loves me yes, yes, yes... hilarious.