No Collusion, But an Attempt to Undermine the Legitimacy of Our Democracy

[Anonymous]

Interesting piece by Daniel Hoffman in the NYT asserting that the Russians were not trying to collude with the Trumps to influence the outcome of the election but rather were deliberately trying to leave bread crumbs to undermine the legitimacy of the American President by arranging the meeting with Don Trump, Jr. Likewise, the Russians undermined Hillary's prospective presidential legitimacy by leaking emails apparently showing a rigged Democratic primary against Bernie.

It would be nice if Mr. Trump would unequivocally acknowledge the Russian meddling and also if fair minded Democrats and objective commentators in the mainstream media would promote unity by focusing on the Russian threat to future elections instead of chasing conspiracy theories that will not lead to impeachment or criminal convictions.

There is no way the Russians would have colluded with the people sitting today in the West Wing. Those folks do not even know how to collude with each to get any significant legislation passed through a Congress controlled by their own party.

We need health care reform in this country and it is not going to happen if we keep giving victories to the Russians in their influence campaign. Trump will be distracted and defensive and Democrats will continue to reflexively resist while the people get hurt. Sad!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece by Daniel Hoffman in the NYT asserting that the Russians were not trying to collude with the Trumps to influence the outcome of the election but rather were deliberately trying to leave bread crumbs to undermine the legitimacy of the American President by arranging the meeting with Don Trump, Jr. Likewise, the Russians undermined Hillary's prospective presidential legitimacy by leaking emails apparently showing a rigged Democratic primary against Bernie.

It would be nice if Mr. Trump would unequivocally acknowledge the Russian meddling and also if fair minded Democrats and objective commentators in the mainstream media would promote unity by focusing on the Russian threat to future elections instead of chasing conspiracy theories that will not lead to impeachment or criminal convictions.

There is no way the Russians would have colluded with the people sitting today in the West Wing. Those folks do not even know how to collude with each to get any significant legislation passed through a Congress controlled by their own party.

We need health care reform in this country and it is not going to happen if we keep giving victories to the Russians in their influence campaign. Trump will be distracted and defensive and Democrats will continue to reflexively resist while the people get hurt. Sad!

It's a fair point Mr. Hoffman makes.

But: why does DJT keep taking secret meetings with the Russian ambassador in the West Wing, Putin himself, and just generally retreating from the world stage and giving Russia the foreign policy openings it desires?

All of it makes zero sense, if he actually is opposed to Russian influence.

[Anonymous]

Here's a link to the piece OP is describing, but I'm not really sure the conclusions are actionable:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/opinion/the-russians-were-involved-but-it-wasnt-about-collusion.html

Both parties in Congress are acting along partisan lines, though I do think a few months ago there were also some reasonable voices in both parties simply focused on investigating the Russian interference. It's Trump's actions, and more or less his actions alone, that have given credence to the collusion narrative (which was previously viewed as a conspiracy theory by most on both sides). Prior to his firing of Comey, he likely was not under investigation personally.

It's Trump campaign staff who lied about meeting with Russians; it's Trump who seems hell-bent at shutting down any investigation into anything Russia-related; it's Trump who refuses to state unequivocally that Russia interfered; it's Trump who refuses to acknowledge how problematic Flynn's behavior was. Ultimately, all of this is self-inflicted.

I think most people who did/do not like/support Trump are like me. I think he's a bad leader with dangerous policies, but I doubted he would do something as corrupt as colluding with Russians. He's literally done nothing to confirm the latter bit, and he's done tons of things to suggest I was giving him too much credit.

Ultimately, I don't know whether Trump colluded with Russia...and I'm doubtful we will. He's a harmful presence in the WH, but we're stuck with him. But the only way to put the Russia stuff to rest is to look into what they did...and, at this point, we know that part of what they did was reach out to high-level Trump campaign associates. There is no way to investigate the matter without including them in the investigation. If they have nothing to hide, though, they will cooperate in the spirit of getting the actual bad guys. It's Trump who has the power to make this be about Russia attacking us and not his campaign. It's Trump who's doing the opposite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece by Daniel Hoffman in the NYT asserting that the Russians were not trying to collude with the Trumps to influence the outcome of the election but rather were deliberately trying to leave bread crumbs to undermine the legitimacy of the American President by arranging the meeting with Don Trump, Jr. Likewise, the Russians undermined Hillary's prospective presidential legitimacy by leaking emails apparently showing a rigged Democratic primary against Bernie.

It would be nice if Mr. Trump would unequivocally acknowledge the Russian meddling and also if fair minded Democrats and objective commentators in the mainstream media would promote unity by focusing on the Russian threat to future elections instead of chasing conspiracy theories that will not lead to impeachment or criminal convictions.

There is no way the Russians would have colluded with the people sitting today in the West Wing. Those folks do not even know how to collude with each to get any significant legislation passed through a Congress controlled by their own party.

We need health care reform in this country and it is not going to happen if we keep giving victories to the Russians in their influence campaign. Trump will be distracted and defensive and Democrats will continue to reflexively resist while the people get hurt. Sad!

It's a fair point Mr. Hoffman makes.

But: why does DJT keep taking secret meetings with the Russian ambassador in the West Wing, Putin himself, and just generally retreating from the world stage and giving Russia the foreign policy openings it desires?

All of it makes zero sense, if he actually is opposed to Russian influence.

Trump has a high opinion of himself but low information. He may genuinely think he can persuade Putin to act against Russian interests or make deals that help the United States. I would feel much better if CNN was a safe space for Trump as he still seems to get most of his information from the shows. It is harmful to the country if Trump resides only in the Hannity bubble. It is time for the media to let go of the collusion narrative and let Mooch give them the ratings they need to make money.

[Anonymous]

He could sign the sanctions bill, if he really isn't under Putin's thumb . . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:He could sign the sanctions bill, if he really isn't under Putin's thumb . . .

Congress did one thing right. It will be next to impossible for Trump to veto.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's a link to the piece OP is describing, but I'm not really sure the conclusions are actionable:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/28/opinion/the-russians-were-involved-but-it-wasnt-about-collusion.html

Both parties in Congress are acting along partisan lines, though I do think a few months ago there were also some reasonable voices in both parties simply focused on investigating the Russian interference. It's Trump's actions, and more or less his actions alone, that have given credence to the collusion narrative (which was previously viewed as a conspiracy theory by most on both sides). Prior to his firing of Comey, he likely was not under investigation personally.

It's Trump campaign staff who lied about meeting with Russians; it's Trump who seems hell-bent at shutting down any investigation into anything Russia-related; it's Trump who refuses to state unequivocally that Russia interfered; it's Trump who refuses to acknowledge how problematic Flynn's behavior was. Ultimately, all of this is self-inflicted.

I think most people who did/do not like/support Trump are like me. I think he's a bad leader with dangerous policies, but I doubted he would do something as corrupt as colluding with Russians. He's literally done nothing to confirm the latter bit, and he's done tons of things to suggest I was giving him too much credit.

Ultimately, I don't know whether Trump colluded with Russia...and I'm doubtful we will. He's a harmful presence in the WH, but we're stuck with him. But the only way to put the Russia stuff to rest is to look into what they did...and, at this point, we know that part of what they did was reach out to high-level Trump campaign associates. There is no way to investigate the matter without including them in the investigation. If they have nothing to hide, though, they will cooperate in the spirit of getting the actual bad guys. It's Trump who has the power to make this be about Russia attacking us and not his campaign. It's Trump who's doing the opposite.

There also is a lot of media sensationalism and bad reporting along with grandstanding by guys like Schiff. Trump hits back when he is attacked. If the media moves on from the collusion narrative, Trump may calm down a little, which would be good for the country.

[Anonymous]

Well I don't know how he could conclude there's no Russian conclusion when the investigation has barely started.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interesting piece by Daniel Hoffman in the NYT asserting that the Russians were not trying to collude with the Trumps to influence the outcome of the election but rather were deliberately trying to leave bread crumbs to undermine the legitimacy of the American President by arranging the meeting with Don Trump, Jr. Likewise, the Russians undermined Hillary's prospective presidential legitimacy by leaking emails apparently showing a rigged Democratic primary against Bernie.

It would be nice if Mr. Trump would unequivocally acknowledge the Russian meddling and also if fair minded Democrats and objective commentators in the mainstream media would promote unity by focusing on the Russian threat to future elections instead of chasing conspiracy theories that will not lead to impeachment or criminal convictions.

There is no way the Russians would have colluded with the people sitting today in the West Wing. Those folks do not even know how to collude with each to get any significant legislation passed through a Congress controlled by their own party.

We need health care reform in this country and it is not going to happen if we keep giving victories to the Russians in their influence campaign. Trump will be distracted and defensive and Democrats will continue to reflexively resist while the people get hurt. Sad!

The problem with the thesis are some facts:

-everyone involved seems to have lied about 1) russian money and 2) various and multiple meetings
-why was Kysliak brought into Trump Tower via a back door and service elevator rather than the front door in December?
-Why was everyone lying about the April Mayflower meeting?
-Why was everyone lying about the June Trump Tower meeting?
-Why has Trump repeatedly said "no Russia deals" when in fact there are hundreds of Russia deals?
-Why did Trump meet with Putin one on one without the other safties and protocols in place?
-Why did Trump share USIC secrets with the Russian in the Oval Office?

The list goes on and on...

[Anonymous]

I think i will wait for mueller amd co to make their report. Too much speculation!

[Anonymous]

Collusion? probably not.

Intent to collude on the part of the Trump campaign? probably yes.

Proof that the Trump family is indebted to Russian businesses and this is why they have been soft on Russia? 100000%.

This last will make him lose all credibility with his base.

Let's hope that the Democrats have a message and candidate all lined up - they haven't been very focused these past few months.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
There also is a lot of media sensationalism and bad reporting along with grandstanding by guys like Schiff. Trump hits back when he is attacked. If the media moves on from the collusion narrative, Trump may calm down a little, which would be good for the country.

I mean, pragmatically I get your point. But it's not the media's job to protect American democracy, it's our elected officials'. And I do't really think there's any likelihood of Trump calming down if the media were to just lay off the "Russia stuff".

1) Even this piece suggests that we need to investigate the Russia stuff associated with their interference. It's Trump's fault that his behavior has been to deny there's a problem and then continue to support allies who have lied at every opportunity about their interactions with Russia. Before these things happened, most of MSM's reporting did not tie Trump directly to Russian meddling. The linking of the things is primarily on Trump, and had he come out forcefully against Russia early on he could have easily owned the issue.

2) We're talking about a man who went unhinged when NPS released a photograph of his inauguration. Unless you accept the premise that Trump should never be criticized in public, I'm not holding my breath for him to "calm down" any time soon.

[Anonymous]

Agreed PP. The Trumps/Kushners and their whole orbit are just tools in every sense of the word. Too greedy and stupid to know they were and are being used. That said, Manafort knew and couldn't say anything. I 100% believe that dude is owned by Russia.

[Anonymous]

Except that he did collude with Russia, the motive and actions have been present and apparent since about October, and then when the Steel document was posted in December.

Neither Trump, nor any of his inner circle have done anything to diffuse the situation, and the lying on forms and shifting stories and versions of events do not help.

There will be no laying off on this because it happened.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Collusion? probably not.

Intent to collude on the part of the Trump campaign? probably yes.

Proof that the Trump family is indebted to Russian businesses and this is why they have been soft on Russia? 100000%.

This last will make him lose all credibility with his base.

Let's hope that the Democrats have a message and candidate all lined up - they haven't been very focused these past few months.

I highly doubt it.