How to appeal CES decision

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Curious… why and how does having a 504 affect the thresholds? I assume the 504 has to be for something specific to testing? My kid has a 504 for anxiety but still tests well. Does having a plan change the threshold he’ll need?

Per the info provided by DCCAPS & AEI, receiving services frim any of the four categories (IEP, 504, EML and FARMS; no discernment among or within them) results in a reduced MAP-R local norm threshold. From reports to the BOE, it appears that that is 70th %ile (instead of 85th) -- again, locally normed, not the national %ile parents see on the report. The local norm is not disclosed by MCPS central admin, but might be guessed within a school or among similar schools as parents discuss scores of their children, some who were placed in the pool and some who were not.

The fact that all services are treated the same, regardless of nature/severity of the underlying condition and likely influence on score, is among the limitations of the paradigm. It would not be feasible to cover every wrinkle, but this and others might feasibly be addressed in a better manner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is also teacher input that goes into lottery decision.

Not true.

It is true. I used to be an MCPS teacher and scored students for the CES program many times

Teachers haven’t been involved in four years. Your experience is dated and no longer accurate.

I disagree. In the past 3 years, I’ve had 2 kids put in the lottery and was told teacher input was part of the decision in addition to MAP scores.

You’re welcome to disagree but it’s been widely publicized that teacher recommendations are by longer part of the equation so you are wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was pre covid, so take it with a grain of salt, but I filed an appeal and wrote a letter explaining my child’s traits that made the CES a good fit for them, and I included a writing sample my child had written for fun. It really showcased DC’s creativity, vocabulary and passion for writing. The appeal was successful and DC was then placed in the waitpool. IMO, the writing sample probably had more sway than my letter, but I guess I’ll never know for sure. DC’s number was later randomly chosen and DC was admitted to the CES and did well there. Good luck.

There was no lottery pre-covid for CES so this doesn’t make any sense. This year’s 7th graders were selected for CES in Spring 2020 not by lottery. This year’s 6th graders were the first kids to be selected by lottery into CES in 2021, which was not pre covid.

I think PP means that their child went into the waitpool and was selected. MCPS hasn't always been clear, but the CES waitpool may not have been ranked. That is, it was a "lottery" off the waitpool even pre-covid. So, the first round was hand-picked but all subsequent rounds were random from the waitpool.

MCPS actually was clear about this. Pre-COVID, the waitlist was indeed a lottery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is also teacher input that goes into lottery decision.

Not true.

It is true. I used to be an MCPS teacher and scored students for the CES program many times

No it’s not true. It used to be true but it has not been for several years so your “used to be” experience is not relevant to what is happening today.

It was LAST YEAR! I rated children for the program LAST YEAR. They definitely still have teachers rate the students across multiple points. Maybe they stopped telling wacko parents that it is part of the process. You know less than you pretend to know

You are thinking of the SIPPI identification process, not the CES process. SIPPI identification is meaningless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is also teacher input that goes into lottery decision.

Not true.

It is true. I used to be an MCPS teacher and scored students for the CES program many times

No it’s not true. It used to be true but it has not been for several years so your “used to be” experience is not relevant to what is happening today.

It was LAST YEAR! I rated children for the program LAST YEAR. They definitely still have teachers rate the students across multiple points. Maybe they stopped telling wacko parents that it is part of the process. You know less than you pretend to know

DP. Tell us which school, if so. This is not at all a part of the current process, as communicated/understood/documented.

Separate from the CES lottery is SIPPI (GT identification), which does have teacher/staff input as one of the identifying parameters. Could you be thinking of that?

Nope. Wootton cluster for Cold Spring. All third grade teachers rated the kids with numbers across multiple areas last year 2023- 24. I'm sure they did it this year too. Even if it is a "lottery," they aren't going to choose kids who have low scores

It’s a lottery among kids who qualify. You still have to get into the pool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is also teacher input that goes into lottery decision.

Not true.

It is true. I used to be an MCPS teacher and scored students for the CES program many times

No it’s not true. It used to be true but it has not been for several years so your “used to be” experience is not relevant to what is happening today.

It was LAST YEAR! I rated children for the program LAST YEAR. They definitely still have teachers rate the students across multiple points. Maybe they stopped telling wacko parents that it is part of the process. You know less than you pretend to know

You are thinking of the SIPPI identification process, not the CES process. SIPPI identification is meaningless.

That’s correct. The gifted and talented identification includes teacher ratings. CES does not. Jeez, if the teachers don’t even understand the difference what hope do we have!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This was pre covid, so take it with a grain of salt, but I filed an appeal and wrote a letter explaining my child’s traits that made the CES a good fit for them, and I included a writing sample my child had written for fun. It really showcased DC’s creativity, vocabulary and passion for writing. The appeal was successful and DC was then placed in the waitpool. IMO, the writing sample probably had more sway than my letter, but I guess I’ll never know for sure. DC’s number was later randomly chosen and DC was admitted to the CES and did well there. Good luck.

Had a similar experience where dc should have been in the pool but was not. His test scores were all well within the range. I believe he was blackballed by administration. Wrote a letter of appeal. He was moved to wait list and accepted. It made an enormous difference in his subsequent academic career.

Because blackballing makes life so much easier for admin? WTF sort of life do you live?

It's not as if it made life any harder, given that all that happened was OP's kid transferring out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious… why and how does having a 504 affect the thresholds? I assume the 504 has to be for something specific to testing? My kid has a 504 for anxiety but still tests well. Does having a plan change the threshold he’ll need?

Per the info provided by DCCAPS & AEI, receiving services frim any of the four categories (IEP, 504, EML and FARMS; no discernment among or within them) results in a reduced MAP-R local norm threshold. From reports to the BOE, it appears that that is 70th %ile (instead of 85th) -- again, locally normed, not the national %ile parents see on the report. The local norm is not disclosed by MCPS central admin, but might be guessed within a school or among similar schools as parents discuss scores of their children, some who were placed in the pool and some who were not.

The fact that all services are treated the same, regardless of nature/severity of the underlying condition and likely influence on score, is among the limitations of the paradigm. It would not be feasible to cover every wrinkle, but this and others might feasibly be addressed in a better manner.

I’m the poster you quoted, and while of course I love that this benefits my kid, that doesn’t seem fair whatsoever. Just because my kid has anxiety, they have a better chance at the CES? Huh. I would not have thought that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is hard to believe that parents in the Wooton cluster who can afford the houses believe that it is.

What's so odd about parents believing MCPS when it describes the process as not involving teacher input? Would you prefer it if parents believed MCPS did other things it gives no indication or visible evidence of doing? What's your opinion of PP's claim of their SC being "blackballed", for example?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is also teacher input that goes into lottery decision.

Not true.

It is true. I used to be an MCPS teacher and scored students for the CES program many times

Teachers haven’t been involved in four years. Your experience is dated and no longer accurate.

I disagree. In the past 3 years, I’ve had 2 kids put in the lottery and was told teacher input was part of the decision in addition to MAP scores.

Right. They will tell you no teacher input so parents are not pissed at the teacher when their kid doesn't get in to CES. But teacher input counts, after all, they see your kid for several hours each day, know their classroom academic performances, and peer interactions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is also teacher input that goes into lottery decision.

Not true.

It is true. I used to be an MCPS teacher and scored students for the CES program many times

Teachers haven’t been involved in four years. Your experience is dated and no longer accurate.

I disagree. In the past 3 years, I’ve had 2 kids put in the lottery and was told teacher input was part of the decision in addition to MAP scores.

Right. They will tell you no teacher input so parents are not pissed at the teacher when their kid doesn't get in to CES. But teacher input counts, after all, they see your kid for several hours each day, know their classroom academic performances, and peer interactions.

FFS, no teacher input is requested or provided. This is a central process that takes place in central office. Schools are given the list of kids who were accepted by central office and they are not able to adjust it or influence it. The gifted and talented identification includes teacher input but that is NOT the same thing and is completely unconnected to CES selection. In fact the gifted and talented identification means nothing at all.

[Anonymous]

You can call the office about the CES lottery, but it's probably more feasible to ensure ELC membership at your own ES. That's totally on the principal, so just make sure to ask. Fwiw my DC is a high-flyer in reading with scores like yours, and wasn't even identified GT in younger years, let alone CES. ELC can be great with the right teacher. Otherwise it's just fine. CES is of particular interest if your DC is a super outlier and not socially in sync with peers (leaving the home school can provide a fresh start), but there are plenty of other, different opportunities ahead.

[Anonymous]

Does ELC distinction really matter if all of 4th and 5th grade is getting it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does ELC distinction really matter if all of 4th and 5th grade is getting it?

Not all MCPS schools are providing ELC to all, and none are really supposed to unless all the kids are identified, one way or another, as needing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You can call the office about the CES lottery, but it's probably more feasible to ensure ELC membership at your own ES. That's totally on the principal, so just make sure to ask. Fwiw my DC is a high-flyer in reading with scores like yours, and wasn't even identified GT in younger years, let alone CES. ELC can be great with the right teacher. Otherwise it's just fine. CES is of particular interest if your DC is a super outlier and not socially in sync with peers (leaving the home school can provide a fresh start), but there are plenty of other, different opportunities ahead.

(04/26/2024 10:48 poster here)

My school's reading specialist did tell me that if his teacher advocated for him, he could be put in the ELC classroom even if he isn't on the list from Central. Also, they told me that the ELC classroom is fluid, so he could be moved there during the school year if they later on decide that he needs the enrichment. Since I have to do his yearly 504 review with his teacher and guidance counselor anyway, I'll probably discuss it with them then. I know he's a good reader and enjoys reading, but he prefers informational texts over narrative, so I'm mixed on whether ELC would really be something he enjoys anyway.

(Like your daughter, I was also not identified as GT in my younger years, and didn't get into the special programs at either the MS or HS level back when I was in MCPS. Nevertheless I still got a perfect score on the SAT Verbal. Though, if standardized test scores were anything other than a dick measuring contest, I suspect I would be doing a more important job than one that would allow me to shitpost on this forum on a Tuesday afternoon.)