Emotional Labor - a good read for men AND women

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone give me specific examples of emotional labor? The only thing I can think of is supporting a relative who is going through difficult times for whatever reason. Postcards, elaborate dinners, laundry and shopping sound like physical tasks. I guess there's the planning component, but how emotional is a to-do list, really?

When my MIL is upset with my DH, she calls me to talk about it. I address her concerns, smooth over her hurt feelings, and tell her I"ll talk to DH. Then I talk to DH, explain to him why his mom is upset, what he did/did not do that set her off, and then discuss what he needs to do to avoid it in the future.

THAT is emotional labor.

(and no this is not a real scenario, bc I would tell my MIL to call my DH directly, but it's an example that I think is true of many households)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone give me specific examples of emotional labor? The only thing I can think of is supporting a relative who is going through difficult times for whatever reason. Postcards, elaborate dinners, laundry and shopping sound like physical tasks. I guess there's the planning component, but how emotional is a to-do list, really?

When my MIL is upset with my DH, she calls me to talk about it. I address her concerns, smooth over her hurt feelings, and tell her I"ll talk to DH. Then I talk to DH, explain to him why his mom is upset, what he did/did not do that set her off, and then discuss what he needs to do to avoid it in the future.

THAT is emotional labor.

Yes, and that is a perfect example of poor boundaries, because it's not the DIL's job to be the go-between and relationship-fixer for a mother and son. It's enabling and toxic. Seriously. Adults either learn to talk to each other or they don't.

Anonymous wrote:(and no this is not a real scenario, bc I would tell my MIL to call my DH directly, but it's an example that I think is true of many households)

Good for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I get out of it is the emotional well being of people I care about / the improvement of my family unit. Which is important enough for me to do some of these things myself, but doesn't remove the resentment that my spouse has externalized the costs of these efforts to me.

I'm the PP you are replying to, and I go back to my point you get something out of it (bolded above). The answer is really simple: either it's important enough to you to do it, or it's not important enough. If it's not important enough to your husband to do himself (on point to my response #5) or to ask you to do for him (in which case he damn well ought to express gratitude), then you shouldn't presume it on his behalf (and be resentful).

Anonymous wrote:As a number of people in the MetaFilter discussion thread pointed out, children really change the dynamics / calculus of these discussions. For example in the case of ILs maintaining connections via DILs - yes you can push back against this, but if you value the relationship between your children and their grandparents a lot of women will suck it up and carry their husbands portion of the burden so that the children don't suffer.

I agree that children are higher stakes (they are absolutely a shared project and hopefully of greater importance than anything else to the parents) but the same basic dynamic applies.

The ILs discussion is a classic case where boundaries are called for - it's on each partner to maintain/run interference/be the primary point of contact with their own FOO. It is a boundary violation on the part of ILs (either DIL or FIL/MIL) to circumvent that. For all you know, no matter how you value "the relationship between your children and their grandparents", the grandparent's child may not want that relationship, and they may have reasons for being alienated from their own parents. And again...it's how much you value it that you're back to discussing...the resentment is directly proportional to how important it is to you that your spouse do X.

I'm not saying all expectations or resentments are wrong but I am saying we all have the primary responsibility of seeing that our expectations or desires are met. As another PP noted: we have to reach agreement about what it is we value before you can expect equal commitment - this part/step is very very frequently ignored or omitted. Hopefully WRT children this conversation happens well in advance of having them (will they spend lots of time w/ grandparents, will they be introduced to religion, what kind of education should they receive, etc. etc.)

I think you are purposefully simplifying. The things I value my DH says he values as well, sometimes more than me - this is absolutely NOT a case of me expecting him to do the work he doesn't care about in order to support my values. However in cases where the work required to manifest those values is emotional / logistical he nature he doesn't seem to do (see?) the work required, and / or underestimates the psychic toll of being the one who has to do the work. I don't think that is unusual and that is where the resentment comes in. In our case my DH is extremely close to his family and does in fact value the relationship between our children and his parents. He also values his relationship with me. However for some reason (mental blinders? I have no idea) he doesn't necessarily see that actions are required to manifest this, like the logistics of arranging family dinners, or scheduling a babysitter, etc.

In fact in our marriage these things far more often go the other way - that DH assumes I will do the heavy lifting for things women frequently care more about but where he is the one to care more in our particular marriage. Examples of this include keeping a tidy house and attending Church. Personally I'm pretty comfortable with a lot of clutter, and if pressed I'd actually identify as an atheist. However he likes things neat and wants our whole family to go to Church (vs him just taking the kids) and so I make an effort in these areas because it matters to him. I know I don't go as far as he'd like, but it's certainly a lot farther than I would go if on my own. And what I, and I think many frustrated women, fell is that our spouse's aren't always willing to put in the same efforts.

Essentially it's a classic case of the Prisoner's dilemma. And while some men are jerks who are happy to make their lives better at the expense of their wives, I don't think that's the case for most - I think it's that they don't even see the work that is trapping her, so they don't value it and don't step up to the plate to cooperate and do their share. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone give me specific examples of emotional labor? The only thing I can think of is supporting a relative who is going through difficult times for whatever reason. Postcards, elaborate dinners, laundry and shopping sound like physical tasks. I guess there's the planning component, but how emotional is a to-do list, really?

Most emotional labor will manifest in some kind of physical component, but I think the key distinction is whether the labor in question is designed to address a social/emotional need or a base physical need.

Examples:
-Knowing that your child is having a hard time with X social dynamic at school, and actively working to address it
-Helping a child to deal with the emotional fall out from a medical condition
-Remembering milestone events and contacting people at those times to make them feel loved and connected. Important for 'fun' events but especially for the anniversary of difficult times (deaths, etc.)
-Showing up to support someone going through a rough time, whatever the cause

And to be honest, if you broaden your 'only thing' to include friends as well as family it's actually a big, big thing. A family member is ill and I will be going there soon to provide support - this is one type of emotional labor. So is answering the phone and being there for my Mom as she processes her emotions about this illness as well as the recent deaths of some of her friends. So is showing up at your friends house with a bottle of wine and 2 hours to help them pack during a move. Or keeping a friends child overnight so they can get a much needed break. Or cutting out from work to meet a friend for coffee who just got dumped. Or dropping off a bottle of Advil so your friend doesn't have to take her sick kids to the store. Or arranging the Food Train so the new parents don't have to worry about meals for 2 weeks. Listening to your spouse comment about how much they would like X and then surprising them with it, even if X is a $1 pack of gum. Etc. Etc.

Emotional labor is the mental work of storing enough information about these people to know these efforts are needed - investing your time and energy in building the relationship. It is providing the social glue that creates community.

[Anonymous]

Nice explanation, PP. And there are so many more examples. I believe many believe all these things just come naturally to women (women just being women) and don't get how intentional we are and how draining it can be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think you are purposefully simplifying. The things I value my DH says he values as well, sometimes more than me - this is absolutely NOT a case of me expecting him to do the work he doesn't care about in order to support my values. However in cases where the work required to manifest those values is emotional / logistical he nature he doesn't seem to do (see?) the work required, and / or underestimates the psychic toll of being the one who has to do the work. I don't think that is unusual and that is where the resentment comes in. In our case my DH is extremely close to his family and does in fact value the relationship between our children and his parents. He also values his relationship with me. However for some reason (mental blinders? I have no idea) he doesn't necessarily see that actions are required to manifest this, like the logistics of arranging family dinners, or scheduling a babysitter, etc.

Of course I am simplifying, but really, the underlying problem IS simple. Take ownership/responsibility for doing the things you are emotionally invested in and do not project that investment onto others.

You, on the other hand, are conflating a lot of non-emotional labor: making plans, scheduling babysitters, handling all manner of logistics, which are mental or physical but not "emotional". Really, though, that's splitting hairs and yet again, adding unnecessary complication. Nobody who has been tasked with those tasks would dispute they are work.

Which leads to gauging the investment of others, as in how much do they really value something: actions speak louder than words. Talk is cheap. If your husband were really invested in your kids being deeply involved in his parent's lives, then he'd make an effort. Of course, if you are already beating him to the punch, and doing it all for him, then why should he be moved to do some work? Heck, if my wife takes the lead, I'll step back and follow. I don't need to dominate or control (and taking charge and doing is a form of that) every aspect of our lives.

Perhaps you need to "drop the rope" to figure out whether it really won't get done unless you step up and do it. If you've already tested that at great length and he still doesn't pick up the rope (cf the PP who commented that her husband completely dropped the ball on Christmas presents for his FOO), then you've got your answer, don't you?

Anonymous wrote:In fact in our marriage these things far more often go the other way - that DH assumes I will do the heavy lifting for things women frequently care more about but where he is the one to care more in our particular marriage. Examples of this include keeping a tidy house and attending Church. Personally I'm pretty comfortable with a lot of clutter, and if pressed I'd actually identify as an atheist. However he likes things neat and wants our whole family to go to Church (vs him just taking the kids) and so I make an effort in these areas because it matters to him. I know I don't go as far as he'd like, but it's certainly a lot farther than I would go if on my own. And what I, and I think many frustrated women, fell is that our spouse's aren't always willing to put in the same efforts.

If you're an atheist who doesn't care how clean the house is, and you feel unappreciated for the extra efforts you make to do things only he cares about, then you also have your answer: stop going the extra steps. Drop the rope. It really is that simple. If you don't keep the house as clean as he would like, he can clean, or he can hire a cleaning service. Let him make all the church plans and get the kids there, etc. It really doesn't matter what the activity is - Church is not in any way more or less special than Soccer League in this regard - if it's important to him and not to you, he can take the lead.

I do agree that many many women are frustrated that their spouses don't place the same importance or value on certain things as the women do. Men feel this way too. Effort is relative to investment. I think it's very very unusual for two people to feel exactly the same way about everything.

Anonymous wrote:Essentially it's a classic case of the Prisoner's dilemma. And while some men are jerks who are happy to make their lives better at the expense of their wives, I don't think that's the case for most - I think it's that they don't even see the work that is trapping her, so they don't value it and don't step up to the plate to cooperate and do their share. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

I'm really really familiar with game theory, and in the words of Inigo Montoya:



There is no dilemma of your husband ratting you out before you rat him out, or either of you staying quiet.

If you are saying you feel like a prisoner in your relationship, that sucks. It's time to stop doing things that aren't important to you and let him pick up the slack (if it's important enough to him). Please see what I said about laundry, and what my first wife said to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you are purposefully simplifying. The things I value my DH says he values as well, sometimes more than me - this is absolutely NOT a case of me expecting him to do the work he doesn't care about in order to support my values. However in cases where the work required to manifest those values is emotional / logistical he nature he doesn't seem to do (see?) the work required, and / or underestimates the psychic toll of being the one who has to do the work. I don't think that is unusual and that is where the resentment comes in. In our case my DH is extremely close to his family and does in fact value the relationship between our children and his parents. He also values his relationship with me. However for some reason (mental blinders? I have no idea) he doesn't necessarily see that actions are required to manifest this, like the logistics of arranging family dinners, or scheduling a babysitter, etc.

Of course I am simplifying, but really, the underlying problem IS simple. Take ownership/responsibility for doing the things you are emotionally invested in and do not project that investment onto others.

You, on the other hand, are conflating a lot of non-emotional labor: making plans, scheduling babysitters, handling all manner of logistics, which are mental or physical but not "emotional". Really, though, that's splitting hairs and yet again, adding unnecessary complication. Nobody who has been tasked with those tasks would dispute they are work.

Which leads to gauging the investment of others, as in how much do they really value something: actions speak louder than words. Talk is cheap. If your husband were really invested in your kids being deeply involved in his parent's lives, then he'd make an effort. Of course, if you are already beating him to the punch, and doing it all for him, then why should he be moved to do some work? Heck, if my wife takes the lead, I'll step back and follow. I don't need to dominate or control (and taking charge and doing is a form of that) every aspect of our lives.

Perhaps you need to "drop the rope" to figure out whether it really won't get done unless you step up and do it. If you've already tested that at great length and he still doesn't pick up the rope (cf the PP who commented that her husband completely dropped the ball on Christmas presents for his FOO), then you've got your answer, don't you?

Anonymous wrote:In fact in our marriage these things far more often go the other way - that DH assumes I will do the heavy lifting for things women frequently care more about but where he is the one to care more in our particular marriage. Examples of this include keeping a tidy house and attending Church. Personally I'm pretty comfortable with a lot of clutter, and if pressed I'd actually identify as an atheist. However he likes things neat and wants our whole family to go to Church (vs him just taking the kids) and so I make an effort in these areas because it matters to him. I know I don't go as far as he'd like, but it's certainly a lot farther than I would go if on my own. And what I, and I think many frustrated women, fell is that our spouse's aren't always willing to put in the same efforts.

If you're an atheist who doesn't care how clean the house is, and you feel unappreciated for the extra efforts you make to do things only he cares about, then you also have your answer: stop going the extra steps. Drop the rope. It really is that simple. If you don't keep the house as clean as he would like, he can clean, or he can hire a cleaning service. Let him make all the church plans and get the kids there, etc. It really doesn't matter what the activity is - Church is not in any way more or less special than Soccer League in this regard - if it's important to him and not to you, he can take the lead.

I do agree that many many women are frustrated that their spouses don't place the same importance or value on certain things as the women do. Men feel this way too. Effort is relative to investment. I think it's very very unusual for two people to feel exactly the same way about everything.

Anonymous wrote:Essentially it's a classic case of the Prisoner's dilemma. And while some men are jerks who are happy to make their lives better at the expense of their wives, I don't think that's the case for most - I think it's that they don't even see the work that is trapping her, so they don't value it and don't step up to the plate to cooperate and do their share. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma

I'm really really familiar with game theory, and in the words of Inigo Montoya:



There is no dilemma of your husband ratting you out before you rat him out, or either of you staying quiet.

If you are saying you feel like a prisoner in your relationship, that sucks. It's time to stop doing things that aren't important to you and let him pick up the slack (if it's important enough to him). Please see what I said about laundry, and what my first wife said to me.

I'm not the PP to whom you respond, but in game theory, the model is more generally applicable in terms of "cooperating" or "defecting". In this way the prisoner's dilemma is more generally applicable to a wide range of situations beyond the plea deal dilemma described in the original prisoner's dilemma. If you think about it, parenting is a bit like a prisoner's dilemma in terms of decisions to cooperate or defect.........

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not the PP to whom you respond, but in game theory, the model is more generally applicable in terms of "cooperating" or "defecting". In this way the prisoner's dilemma is more generally applicable to a wide range of situations beyond the plea deal dilemma described in the original prisoner's dilemma. If you think about it, parenting is a bit like a prisoner's dilemma in terms of decisions to cooperate or defect.........

I understand, but I think if you view the choice of possible responses to either cooperating or defecting (versus sitting on your hands or just doing the level that suits you) then you are giving into a false dilemma. In this case it implies you either "cooperate" (do what your spouse wants) or "sabotage" (undermine what they want)...and even that is, at best, a tortured fit of the model to the circumstances. Nevermind that the reward structures are completely wrong as well. There are plenty of alternative options here: clean, but maybe not as much as your spouse wants. Be willing to accompany spouse (and children) to church, but don't take the responsibility for getting the kids ready; you could agree that, despite being an atheist yourself, you're willing to compromise and allow the children to attend Church..see, very quickly the artificial constraints fall away.

There are certainly situations where there are mutually exclusive choices to be made about parenting, but how much to act as go-between for the ILs and DH isn't one of them; neither is how much tidying/cleaning you do. None of these "emotional labor" examples are mutually exclusive choices.

[Anonymous]

This reminds me of that old adage about how women always think they can change men... they can't. You probably saw signs of him being like this before you were married and glossed over them instead of addressing them back then. You thought these issues wouldn't ever become more important than your love for each other. We've all done that. That sucks, but you miscalculated and now you're paying the price. If you lived together for more than 2 years and still didn't see it coming, then shame on you for being in denial. You should have had a talk back then about dividing the household chores equally, with each of you accepting the ones you mind the least/care about the most and agreeing to do your part. I hate cooking but don't mind laundry, so I do laundry and he cooks. See how that works? If he doesn't hold up his end of the bargain, no one's forcing you to marry him and subject yourself to a life of enslavement!

That only covers the physical labor, though. The emotional labor is harder, because you don't always realize what's required or expected before you get married. Or how frikkin crazy his family is. Or how children will change things. You do have to enforce boundaries with family members. Repeatedly. Some of those relationships will suffer for it. That's not your fault. Your kids will learn how to deal, with your guidance. You can approach these subjects with your husband, but if he choses not to engage, how is resenting him going to help? Let go of what you can't control.

To recap, 1) you can't change someone by marrying them; 2) you can't control everything so stop trying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Basically that is a list of things made up by women that just HAVE to be done so they won't be judged by OTHER women. They can't understand why men don't want to do their list and because of that, they have the right to think of themselves as victims.

Here are some tips to help the ladies

1. No one has ever died from sitting on a toilet with a ring around the bowl
2. I cooked dinner and played with the kids. I am going to relax a little. I'm not emptying the dishwasher tonight. Get what you need out of it and I'll empty it tomorrow.
3. The trash isn't being picked up tonight. I will take it to the curb in the morning when I go outside to warm up my car.
4. Yes I am aware there is laundry in the hamper. I will do some of it as I'm watching the playoffs this weekend.
5. I don't care if my dad gets a birthday card. Don't get mad at me because you decided to burden yourself with that chore.
6. Yes I saw the dirt on the kitchen floor. As soon as it doubles in size it will be big enough for me to care enough to sweep it up.
7. I know I left my beer bottle on the end table. I will throw it away when I sit down in the morning because it will be in the way of my coffee cup.

You might think your dad does not care about getting a birthday card.
He might think he does not care about getting a birthday card.
He does care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: You might think your dad does not care about getting a birthday card.
He might think he does not care about getting a birthday card.
He does care.

If you know for sure he does care, wouldn't you WANT to send him a card or better yet, call or text him, because you're a kind, caring person, and not just to prove that you're not as lazy as his son? Trust me, his dad knows his son, and he knows it's you sending the card. So send it because YOU want to not out of some self-imposed obligation.

A lot of these grievances could be let go if people would just stop worrying about how it makes them look to others.

Accept you married a lazy guy who has different priorities or else be eaten up by resentment, it's your choice.

[Anonymous]

I do things every day to show my husband I care about him: cleaning out his coffee mug in the morning to save him the time, picking up things on my way home from a full days work to make a dinner I'll know he'll enjoy, making sure his closet is stocked with what he needs both clothing and any toiletries, plugging in the PlayStation control he left unplugged so it's fully charged when he sits down to play at night, setting the DVR to record the game for him cause he probably forgot it and will be upset if he misses it.... noticing that his suit jacket has a missing button so adding it to the pile to take to the drycleaners... remembering he mentioned he was running low on stamps so I get some when I'm in the check out line at the grocery... oh, and he's been drinking that particular juice drink a lot lately, he's probably run out, I'll grab a few of them to stock the fridge for him...

Emotional labor: It's noticing things, it's paying attention, and it's thinking about the other person and doing things for them to make their life easier because you love them.

What would be nice is having him do something like that for me sometime. I'm not asking for him to thank me, I'm asking him to THINK about me. For more than 2 seconds. "She's had a really tough week at work, and I got home before her so I'll jsut go ahead and get those dishes started so she doesn't walk in adn see a messy kitchen first thing" or "I'll get dinner ordered in and put a bottle of wine in the fridge to cool for her, and let her pick whatever movie we watch together tonight."

It isn't hard. But it does take effort. You have to think about other people. And care about them. And care about their feelings.

And when someone says "I'm overwhelmed, this is too much, I can't handle it anymore" don't reply with a "well then just stop doing it, problem solved!" because that just says you don't give a damn at all.

Man or woman - just pay attention to the person if you love them, and show them once in awhile. Saying "i love you" would mean a whole lot more if there were some actions to back up those words.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I do things every day to show my husband I care about him: cleaning out his coffee mug in the morning to save him the time, picking up things on my way home from a full days work to make a dinner I'll know he'll enjoy, making sure his closet is stocked with what he needs both clothing and any toiletries, plugging in the PlayStation control he left unplugged so it's fully charged when he sits down to play at night, setting the DVR to record the game for him cause he probably forgot it and will be upset if he misses it.... noticing that his suit jacket has a missing button so adding it to the pile to take to the drycleaners... remembering he mentioned he was running low on stamps so I get some when I'm in the check out line at the grocery... oh, and he's been drinking that particular juice drink a lot lately, he's probably run out, I'll grab a few of them to stock the fridge for him...

Emotional labor: It's noticing things, it's paying attention, and it's thinking about the other person and doing things for them to make their life easier because you love them.

What would be nice is having him do something like that for me sometime. I'm not asking for him to thank me, I'm asking him to THINK about me. For more than 2 seconds. "She's had a really tough week at work, and I got home before her so I'll jsut go ahead and get those dishes started so she doesn't walk in adn see a messy kitchen first thing" or "I'll get dinner ordered in and put a bottle of wine in the fridge to cool for her, and let her pick whatever movie we watch together tonight."

It isn't hard. But it does take effort. You have to think about other people. And care about them. And care about their feelings.

And when someone says "I'm overwhelmed, this is too much, I can't handle it anymore" don't reply with a "well then just stop doing it, problem solved!" because that just says you don't give a damn at all.

Man or woman - just pay attention to the person if you love them, and show them once in awhile. Saying "i love you" would mean a whole lot more if there were some actions to back up those words.

See, that there is exactly what I find stifling and annoying about the MeFi emotional labor obsession. You do NOT have the right to dictate how somebody thinks and feels. You just don't. I get that many women are frustrated that they do more than their fair share of hte household labor (oh boy do I, you don't even know). But that does not give me the right to dictate how anyone things and feels. Some people just aren't mind readers - if you want them to take an action, you have to tell them. If you want to realign the distribution of labor in the house, talk it over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Basically that is a list of things made up by women that just HAVE to be done so they won't be judged by OTHER women. They can't understand why men don't want to do their list and because of that, they have the right to think of themselves as victims.

Here are some tips to help the ladies

1. No one has ever died from sitting on a toilet with a ring around the bowl
2. I cooked dinner and played with the kids. I am going to relax a little. I'm not emptying the dishwasher tonight. Get what you need out of it and I'll empty it tomorrow.
3. The trash isn't being picked up tonight. I will take it to the curb in the morning when I go outside to warm up my car.
4. Yes I am aware there is laundry in the hamper. I will do some of it as I'm watching the playoffs this weekend.
5. I don't care if my dad gets a birthday card. Don't get mad at me because you decided to burden yourself with that chore.
6. Yes I saw the dirt on the kitchen floor. As soon as it doubles in size it will be big enough for me to care enough to sweep it up.
7. I know I left my beer bottle on the end table. I will throw it away when I sit down in the morning because it will be in the way of my coffee cup.

You might think your dad does not care about getting a birthday card.
He might think he does not care about getting a birthday card.
He does care.

No he doesn't. He's not a woman. Why is that so hard to figure out? MEN AND WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT! WE DON'T PLACE IMPORTANCE ON THE SAME THINGS! GET OVER YOUR "I'M RIGHT AND HE'S WRONG WRONG" ATTITUDE.

[Anonymous]

Neither sex is right or wrong in this thread. They are simply different and need to figure out some common ground. Too many times people want to be right instead of getting it right.