Verbal IQ & Peformance IQ?

[Anonymous]

Anyone else's dc have a large gap between verbal IQ & performance IQ on admissions tests? Is this a huge red flag for private schools? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Is the performance a lot lower?

[Anonymous]

Depends on the size of the gap - but a large one (say 8-10 points or more) can be indicative of a learning disorder or other issues and, yes, is a red-flag for private schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Depends on the size of the gap - but a large one (say 8-10 points or more) can be indicative of a learning disorder or other issues and, yes, is a red-flag for private schools.

Interesting. I'm not the OP. My child had a 20 point gap between verbal and performance, with verbal being higher. Both were above average. The WPPSI write-up was excellent though, very complimentary toward my child's abilities/personality/effort/thinking speed. The report did note the discrepancy, but de-emphasized it in words (can't remember the exact language) because the verbal IQ was quite high it said something along the lines of the discrepancy being less notable.

We did not apply to any of the 'big 3' because we don't live in DC but were accepted at every private school that we applied to. I'm not sure how the 'big 3' react to it, but if the description of how your child acted during the test is very good, I suspect that the schools will put a bit less weight on the 'discrepancy" and more on the 'write-up'.

Despite the discrepancy my child doesn't have a learning disability; my child is above grade level in every respect, and excels at things such as chess, mental calculations, and mental manipulation of figures that I think require some of the same skills measured in the performance IQ...I suspect that in our case, it was just a mis-measurement because my child was a young 4 when the test was administered.

[Anonymous]

My child had a 9 point gap between verbal and performance (99 on verbal, 90 on performance), and when we had our "post morten" with Erby Mitchell to discuss why she was not admitted, the first thing he mentioned was the 9 point gap between the two scores. He said a gap of a few points was no big deal, but 9 points seemed to raise some questions.

[Anonymous]

My DC had a 30-point split between Verbal and Performance (Verbal higher), both on the WPPSI at age 4 and on the WISC at age 8. He was accepted by a "big 3" school - the only school we applied him to. He has no serious learning issues although, obviously, his verbal skills are stronger than his spatial skills.

I think schools will look at the absolute numbers, as well as at a split. Both of his scores were high, but one was much higher. If the same split were present with one score in the average range or lower, that would be more of a red flag. I've also heard that an average-or-lower Processing Speed score (on the WISC) is a flag, because of the heavy work load.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My child had a 9 point gap between verbal and performance (99 on verbal, 90 on performance), and when we had our "post morten" with Erby Mitchell to discuss why she was not admitted, the first thing he mentioned was the 9 point gap between the two scores. He said a gap of a few points was no big deal, but 9 points seemed to raise some questions.

I don't know why this is odd to me. I think that you are better off without Mr. Mitchell and his gang. The comment "raises questions" about him. What was his score? It is so dumb to focus in on one itty bitty test in determining a child's future.
Your child is FINE, forget them.
Thank god I don't live in DC and have to deal with these people.

[Anonymous]

You need to distinguish between gaps in Standard Score (100=50th percentile, SD=15 points) and gaps in percentile (90th=120 SS, 99th=135 SS and up).

A 9 point gap in SS points means nothing, a 9 point gap in percentiles could mean something, or might not. And everything varies with where on the scale you are.

[Anonymous]

My kid had a gap between verbal and executive performance, although both were very high. The tester wrote in her summary that often happened with high IQ kids, because they sometimes put too much time into over-thinking things. Which apparently he did, double-checking all his answers on the written parts. FWIW.

[Anonymous]

OP here--Thanks for sharing information and experiences. The tester was very impressed with dc's verbal score, and said it indicated a 'very bright child'. I guess I hyper-focused on the performance, which was lower. I'll wait for the write-up, and hopefully it will clarify (and/or justify) the scores. Thanks again.

[Anonymous]

In this discussion and in a few others I've seen on these boards where people are discussing gaps between different categories on the tests, someone always suggests that a gap indicates some sort of problem/issue/disorder. That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Everything I've read about these tests emphasizes that the results are highly variable -- by as much a 20-30%. The same child can test at very different scores depending on the time of day, day of week, what the child had for breakfast, whether the child "connects" with the tester, etc. If all that's so, then why should a gap suggest any sort of problem? Isn't it just as likely (perhaps even more likely) that the child simply got distracted or bored on a particular subsection? Alternatively, isn't it just as likely that the child was particularly focused (or maybe even guessed lucky) on the section where she scored highly? Or perhaps a given child just simply does better with certain tasks (eg, verbal ones) than others (eg, performance ones) at this particular stage in her development. Those all seem like much more likely explanations than some sort of disorder, especially with relatively small gaps. I suppose if a child consistently exhibited a large (25+%) gap over several tests over an extended period of time, then this might be something to examine further. Otherwise, it seems not really relevant.

I have no particular background in childhood testing, so maybe I'm missing something. This is all just my best instinct based on the materials I've read and discussions I've had with people smarter than I. I'm sure someone will chime in if she knows more (and some may chime in regardless).

[Anonymous]

PP from 14:52 here again: "One thing we cannot do from looking at the WPPSI is determine whether or not the child has a learning disability. There are children with very high scores who have learning disabilities and children with big verbal- performance gaps who do not .... The data regarding the relationship between a verbal-performance score gap and learning disabilities is derived from the adult literature, not the child literature .... The incidence of learning disabilities in children with a verbal-performance gap and in children without a verbal-performance gap is the same." (from presentation titled "Assessing Young Children for Admissions" that is easily found on Google).

Totally off-topic, but a fascinating note from the same presentation: "In a thesis study, graduate students in clinical and counseling psychology Ph.D. programs (81.9% of them were Caucasian) with an average of 28.61 months of experience with the WISC III were given identical protocols of WISC III testing with details fabricated about the children. For each protocol, they were given exactly the same description of the child except for race. They scored African American protocols lower than Caucasian American protocols in both high and average I.Q. conditions. African American protocols were rated lower on full scale and verbal I.Q. than Caucasian protocols whether they were in the gifted or normal range of intelligence."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Depends on the size of the gap - but a large one (say 8-10 points or more) can be indicative of a learning disorder or other issues and, yes, is a red-flag for private schools.

Do many of these private schools "discriminate" against children with learning issues? Are they not equipped (teachers, resources) to handle such diverse learning styles?

[Anonymous]

My child-- tested at age 3-- had a 49 percentage point gap between verbal and performance! She was at 99 % on verbal, 50% on performance. She is very obviously a bright child, though, and nothing indicated anything more than unreliablility of WPPSI's for 3 year olds. (My dad is a psychologist with a practice heavy in education assessments and he says the tests are nearly worthless for children under 6-- scores are extremely unstable over time). We did not apply to the big 3 but we applied and she as accepted at 3 excellent area private schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Depends on the size of the gap - but a large one (say 8-10 points or more) can be indicative of a learning disorder or other issues and, yes, is a red-flag for private schools.

Do many of these private schools "discriminate" against children with learning issues? Are they not equipped (teachers, resources) to handle such diverse learning styles?

I believe that most of them have a pretty clear idea of what type/intensity of learning issues they can and can't accomodate for. As an educational consultant once said to me, if they didn't take kids with attention disorders, they would all be half empty. Most of the schools are prepared to make accomodations (extra time, quiet place for testing, use of a computer) if there is a documented need. Many of the schools will allow parents to arrange for a tutor to come in during the school day. Most of the schools have learning specialists on staff, who can help with mild needs for help (how to get organized, how to get your thoughts into words). Few schools provide actual remediation above that level (a phonological processing course for a dyslexic student, extensive tutoring for executive dysfunction, OT for sensory issues).

The problem is, these issues are incredibly hard to predict at the pre-K/K level, and schools don't like to have to counsel kids out later on, so there is a temptation to overinterpret scores which really don't mean much.