Bravo on completely missing the point. DP |
How ironic. The haters are the aholes calling the police and Jewish people “pigs,” among other vile names. Pathetic that this even has to be explained to you. DP |
I attended Stanford for undergrad, and then a flagship state school ranked around #100 for a fully-funded master's degree. I was a TA for undergraduate courses at the state school. Huge difference. A few things stand out to me:
*The amount of work expected of undergraduates at Stanford was significantly more than the state school. I was used to reading at least half a book a week per class at Stanford (and typically an entire book). At the state school the typical reading load was 20-30 pages out of a textbook, and not a real scholarly book. The writing requirements were similarly low. Two 3-page papers, a midterm, and a final at the state school for an intro class. An intro course at Stanford was a 5-page paper, a 10-page paper, a midterm, and a final. I was used to writing papers in the 15-30 page range, which is more typical of graduate requirements at the state school. *Stanford encouraged "big" thinking--engaging with big ideas, taking risks. I felt like the state school had me in the weeds, writing about obscure things instead of working at a higher level. Part of that may be undergraduate vs. graduate study, but when I returned to the top-5 for law school, I found myself once again in the "big thinking" world. None of this is to say that you can't find state schools with rigorous requirements, but I think you really have to move up a lot in the rankings if that's what you're looking for. And this isn't a product of the caliber of the professors--most of the state school professors went to places like Stanford. It was the other students--a professor told me he used to assign more work, but the students just wouldn't do it and eventually he gave in. |
I attended a top 30 private and it was how you describe Stanford in terms of rigor and workload. My brother attended a top 50 state flagship, and while I can't speak to his academic experience since I wasn't there, he went on to get a doctoral degree at an Ivy and have a very successful career. I am happy with my career, but my brother is objectively more successful than I am. Guess whose undergrad education cost a lot less? |
And you sound like you're missing the point. What you seem willing to argue is that your individual experience with a few Ivy interns gives you insight into an important trend. I'm not arguing a thing about my experience I'm just saying what you have described doesn't sound like a rational basis for claiming a trend. |
Oh my goodness, yes you are. You wrote: "I have worked with hundreds of high-achieving interns/recent grads from all sorts of schools over time. I haven't found a significant pattern with type of school and their willingness to learn. If forced to take a stance on it, I would say I have found a slight trend for the students from elite schools a little more open to learning. If I wanted to come up with random ad hoc theories to explain it I might say perhaps because they are a little more used to being a small fish in a big pond in college than being constantly regarded as the top of the heap. One trend I *have* noticed is that there are always a few people at work who have a chip on their shoulder about elite schools and project all sorts of nonsense on the new employees But the majority of us don't see it (and we also come from a range of schools) and just sort of feel bad for the people who talk that way and try to steer the recent grads from having to interact with those folks as they are not fair-minded." What I am saying is NEITHER one of us has proof either way that Ivy League grads are or aren't arrogant jerks. I am not claiming to have proof. I HAVE seen it several times, among several different people that I have interviewed or worked with closely and/or for long periods of time. Also classmates in a non-Ivy grad program that themselves graduated from Ivy league schools - they were truly insufferable because they very clearly and loudly felt they were too smart to be there. Does it happen with absolutely every Ivy grad? No - I have two very close colleagues that I've worked with for over a decade that attended Ivies back in the day and both are very smart (yes, smarter than me) and only one of them is arrogant. She is by far the most arrogant person in our workplace, which does not tend to attract arrogant people. I tend to see it the most obviously in recent grads. Are there incompetent people that aren't Ivy grads? Of course! But IME, which is obviously different from your experience, there is a certain brand of arrogance that can come with Ivy grads. |
I think OP was being sarcastic |
I said if "forced to take a stance" which is quite different than your point. |
It's clear that you don't see much of a trend and feel very strongly about that, and are trying to argue that your stance is objective and people who have a different opinion are not only biased but "have a chip on their shoulder". And then you call yourself "humble". Of course you like the Ivy league grads. They fit right in with you. |
Nate is correct, but many alums here don’t want to hear the truth. |
This is exactly my experience at my top10 and my kids’ experience at their different T10/ivies. The rigourous expectations are highest when the peer group is at the top level, which means T10-15/ivy |
Nate Silver can not do math.
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He offers caveats in that article:
“I’d also tell them to go with the elite private college if (i) they had a high degree of confidence in what they wanted to do with their degree and (ii) it was in a field like law that regards the credential as particularly valuable. And I’d tell them to strongly consider going if they came from an economically disadvantaged background and had been offered a golden ticket to join the elite. I’m not super familiar with the literature on the selective college wage premium, but it’s among this group of disadvantaged students where the benefits seem to be concentrated.” My kid got into an Ivy. He knows what he wants to do and the credentials matter for that field. If it were a kid that had zero idea and didn’t have a niche where that label mattered- I agree. We would have done in-state. |
And the description of the lower requirements at public were exactly my experience. I had a whole slew of gen ed requirement. They were all light reading, multiple choice tests, one or two small essays graded by a TA. A professor who did his post doc at yale said he saw no difference in intelligence between his state school and top private students (or if there was it was not noteworthy), but there was a dramatic difference in effort. Students at an Ivy simply did everything they were asked to do without hesitation. |
Contrary to popular belief, master's degrees are often easier than bachelor's degrees. The workload for my master's degree was significantly less than for my bachelor's. Both were state schools, but the master's degree came from the higher-ranked school. Granted, my undergrad was Computer Science, which can be brutally time-consuming. |