a final warning to high school students in the college admissions game

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That description of eating clubs wasn’t accurate even decades ago. Only a few of them are selective.

Selective “bicker clubs”:Tiger Inn, Ivy, Cap, Tower, Cannon, Cottage. That’s six.

There are eleven eating clubs total. The majority are selective.

f you have an issue with the eating clubs at Princeton, I assume you also have an issue with the secret societies, final clubs, and fraternities and sororities at other Ivies and universities.

Absolutely do. But the difference is these other schools don’t have a 70% participation rate in their flavor of frat/sorority. Princeton is dominated by it.

So, does that mean if 100% of Princeton wanted to join an Eating Club, then they could at least be part of the other five that are not selective?

I am not aware of another school that even has remotely the capacity for 70% of the school to join a Sorority/Fraternity. I am also not aware of any school that has open fraternity/sororities with their own house that throw parties, offer meals, etc.

At most schools...maybe 30-40% has any opportunity to join a fraternity / sorority. The fact that Princeton has capacity for 70% is actually fairly astounding.

No, most of the clubs are at capacity, and with the increase in class size in 2022, the percentage of Princeton upperclassmen who can join a club will go down. Some juniors and seniors willingly stay in residential colleges, or join co-ops, and a very few move off campus. It's a messy situation, as the university relies on the clubs to feed the majority of the upperclassmen. It's absolutely something that kids and parents looking at Pton should think about-- do I want to be in a club, and if not, do I want to be in a minority of my classmates?

There are currently several clubs with capacity. You are not answering the PP’s questions honestly.

I answered her question accurately and honestly. MOST clubs (bickers + Charter) are at capacity, and there is no way the Street can absorb 100% of upperclassmen as the clubs exist now--which was the question. Space at Cloister is irrelevant to the big picture here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It's absolutely something that kids and parents looking at Pton should think about-- do I want to be in a club, and if not, do I want to be in a minority of my classmates?

+100 This.

I came from a lower middle class family and imagined Princeton as this beautiful ivory tower where everyone is very intellectual and friendly. Instead, when I got there culturally it felt simultaneously fratty, cliquey, and posh - like some kind of TV prep school. I think this stems mostly from the eating clubs.

This isn't something that Princeton likes to play up on brochures but I think it should be a really important factor for kids and parents when looking at the school.

Sounds like you can't win. If you attend Yale then everyone will complain about the Secret Societies and how few people can ever join, while if you go to Princeton everyone will complain that 70% of the school is part of an Eating Club, so you don't want to be in the other 30%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do know you can transfer - right? I do not feel bad for anyone who just whines and doesn't try to do anything about it.

If you watch this kid’s YouTube video on where he got in, you will see he is the child of immigrants with a very low income. I don’t think transferring is easy for kids that are on large amounts of financial aid. He was a questbridge finalist or something, so under $65,000 HHI

Wonder if part of his problem is meeting kids there who have immense family wealth and he’s being eaten up with jealousy. It’s one thing to know that billionaires exist, it’s another to meet one and think “why him and not me?”

May not be jealousy- but even if others are trotting to include him he would be excluded.

Kind of hard to not have any spending money and get asked to go to the Witherspoon grill for dinner and be expected to drop a min of $100.

Or get asked to go to someone’s ski house in Utah, and forget about not having $ for the flight but having to rent skis, get clothing, having $ for going out.

I am sure being around so many with $ is an issue - but I would not perceive it as jealousy but honestly not being able to fit in with Ben if others are not intentionally excluding him. He cannot easily live in their world unless they foot the bill for him - that’s a fact.

It may not be jealousy but simply being aware that the world of rich people exists and you're not in it (and never will be) cannot fail to affect your attitude towards those people and the place where you encountered them.

An opposite perspective. I was a scholarship kid from a blue collar family at a selective university where I encountered seriously rich kids for the first time. Not “private school, vacation in Europe, drive a Mercedes” rich but “went to boarding school in NH/NY/CT because my parent live in Saudi or Qatar and they have hired someone to come clean our room and do our laundry once a week” rich. My rich friends were always really generous and their families were really welcoming. I remember a girl in my dorm lending me a dress to go to the opera and giving me a crash course on what to expect and how to act ahead of time. Little things add up over 4 years and I graduated into a consulting job with lots of hotels, airport lounges, and client dinners. Nothing in my pre-college life had prepared me for flying 1st class or accepting a client’s invite to play tennis at her club - but my experiences in college did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It's absolutely something that kids and parents looking at Pton should think about-- do I want to be in a club, and if not, do I want to be in a minority of my classmates?

+100 This.

I came from a lower middle class family and imagined Princeton as this beautiful ivory tower where everyone is very intellectual and friendly. Instead, when I got there culturally it felt simultaneously fratty, cliquey, and posh - like some kind of TV prep school. I think this stems mostly from the eating clubs.

This isn't something that Princeton likes to play up on brochures but I think it should be a really important factor for kids and parents when looking at the school.

I’m convinced it’s the same small group of posters endlessly rehashing their culture shock.

FWIW, the Admissions Department is quite diverse. As much as PP keeps trying to suggest the student body is a cross between Gossip Girl and Animal House, that’s not the reality.

https://admission.princeton.edu/apply/counselors/meet-admission-team

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's absolutely something that kids and parents looking at Pton should think about-- do I want to be in a club, and if not, do I want to be in a minority of my classmates?

+100 This.

I came from a lower middle class family and imagined Princeton as this beautiful ivory tower where everyone is very intellectual and friendly. Instead, when I got there culturally it felt simultaneously fratty, cliquey, and posh - like some kind of TV prep school. I think this stems mostly from the eating clubs.

This isn't something that Princeton likes to play up on brochures but I think it should be a really important factor for kids and parents when looking at the school.

Sounds like you can't win. If you attend Yale then everyone will complain about the Secret Societies and how few people can ever join, while if you go to Princeton everyone will complain that 70% of the school is part of an Eating Club, so you don't want to be in the other 30%.

The 70% isn’t even a correct number, since freshmen and sophomores live in the residential colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

That description of eating clubs wasn’t accurate even decades ago. Only a few of them are selective.

Selective “bicker clubs”:Tiger Inn, Ivy, Cap, Tower, Cannon, Cottage. That’s six.

There are eleven eating clubs total. The majority are selective.

f you have an issue with the eating clubs at Princeton, I assume you also have an issue with the secret societies, final clubs, and fraternities and sororities at other Ivies and universities.

Absolutely do. But the difference is these other schools don’t have a 70% participation rate in their flavor of frat/sorority. Princeton is dominated by it.

So, does that mean if 100% of Princeton wanted to join an Eating Club, then they could at least be part of the other five that are not selective?

I am not aware of another school that even has remotely the capacity for 70% of the school to join a Sorority/Fraternity. I am also not aware of any school that has open fraternity/sororities with their own house that throw parties, offer meals, etc.

At most schools...maybe 30-40% has any opportunity to join a fraternity / sorority. The fact that Princeton has capacity for 70% is actually fairly astounding.

No, most of the clubs are at capacity, and with the increase in class size in 2022, the percentage of Princeton upperclassmen who can join a club will go down. Some juniors and seniors willingly stay in residential colleges, or join co-ops, and a very few move off campus. It's a messy situation, as the university relies on the clubs to feed the majority of the upperclassmen. It's absolutely something that kids and parents looking at Pton should think about-- do I want to be in a club, and if not, do I want to be in a minority of my classmates?

There are currently several clubs with capacity. You are not answering the PP’s questions honestly.

I answered her question accurately and honestly. MOST clubs (bickers + Charter) are at capacity, and there is no way the Street can absorb 100% of upperclassmen as the clubs exist now--which was the question. Space at Cloister is irrelevant to the big picture here.

It would be correct to say that there are not enough seats at the current 11 clubs to accommodate all the juniors and seniors, if they hypothetically all wanted to join an eating club (and eschew other options), while acknowledging that there is space available at several clubs now for juniors and seniors who actually want to join one.

[Anonymous]

The 70% isn’t even a correct number, since freshmen and sophomores live in the residential colleges.

70% of upperclassmen are in eating clubs - i.e. 70% of undergraduates are in eating clubs at some point during their time at Princeton. Before people get technical, excluding any who drop out prior to junior year.

That is an incredibly high participation rate.

Apparently, this year, 80% of sophomores either bickered or joined a sign-in club:
https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2024/02/princeton-news-stlife-bicker-street-week-2024-competitive-largest

However all of this nitpicking fails to see the forrest for the trees: eating clubs are a massive(maybe even central) part of student life at Princeton and should be a serious factor in deciding whether to attend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's absolutely something that kids and parents looking at Pton should think about-- do I want to be in a club, and if not, do I want to be in a minority of my classmates?

+100 This.

I came from a lower middle class family and imagined Princeton as this beautiful ivory tower where everyone is very intellectual and friendly. Instead, when I got there culturally it felt simultaneously fratty, cliquey, and posh - like some kind of TV prep school. I think this stems mostly from the eating clubs.

This isn't something that Princeton likes to play up on brochures but I think it should be a really important factor for kids and parents when looking at the school.

I’m convinced it’s the same small group of posters endlessly rehashing their culture shock.

FWIW, the Admissions Department is quite diverse. As much as PP keeps trying to suggest the student body is a cross between Gossip Girl and Animal House, that’s not the reality.

https://admission.princeton.edu/apply/counselors/meet-admission-team

not sure what the admission dept being diverse has to do with how these kids feel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The 70% isn’t even a correct number, since freshmen and sophomores live in the residential colleges.

70% of upperclassmen are in eating clubs - i.e. 70% of undergraduates are in eating clubs at some point during their time at Princeton. Before people get technical, excluding any who drop out prior to junior year.

That is an incredibly high participation rate.

Apparently, this year, 80% of sophomores either bickered or joined a sign-in club:
https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2024/02/princeton-news-stlife-bicker-street-week-2024-competitive-largest

However all of this nitpicking fails to see the forrest for the trees: eating clubs are a massive(maybe even central) part of student life at Princeton and should be a serious factor in deciding whether to attend.

Sounds like things are working fairly well if 99% of students who expressed interest in an eating club were matched with a club. Do 99% of the students at Harvard, Yale, or Dartmouth interested in a final club, secret society, or fraternity get placed in one?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It's absolutely something that kids and parents looking at Pton should think about-- do I want to be in a club, and if not, do I want to be in a minority of my classmates?

+100 This.

I came from a lower middle class family and imagined Princeton as this beautiful ivory tower where everyone is very intellectual and friendly. Instead, when I got there culturally it felt simultaneously fratty, cliquey, and posh - like some kind of TV prep school. I think this stems mostly from the eating clubs.

This isn't something that Princeton likes to play up on brochures but I think it should be a really important factor for kids and parents when looking at the school.

I’m convinced it’s the same small group of posters endlessly rehashing their culture shock.

FWIW, the Admissions Department is quite diverse. As much as PP keeps trying to suggest the student body is a cross between Gossip Girl and Animal House, that’s not the reality.

https://admission.princeton.edu/apply/counselors/meet-admission-team

not sure what the admission dept being diverse has to do with how these kids feel.

Read the thread. It’s not an admissions department that sees its mission as merely admitting fratty, clique-y, or posh kids, as you or a PP suggested. Most of my classmates were smart, kind, interesting people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The 70% isn’t even a correct number, since freshmen and sophomores live in the residential colleges.

70% of upperclassmen are in eating clubs - i.e. 70% of undergraduates are in eating clubs at some point during their time at Princeton. Before people get technical, excluding any who drop out prior to junior year.

That is an incredibly high participation rate.

Apparently, this year, 80% of sophomores either bickered or joined a sign-in club:
https://www.dailyprincetonian.com/article/2024/02/princeton-news-stlife-bicker-street-week-2024-competitive-largest

However all of this nitpicking fails to see the forrest for the trees: eating clubs are a massive(maybe even central) part of student life at Princeton and should be a serious factor in deciding whether to attend.

Sounds like things are working fairly well if 99% of students who expressed interest in an eating club were matched with a club. Do 99% of the students at Harvard, Yale, or Dartmouth interested in a final club, secret society, or fraternity get placed in one?

That's my take. Sounds way better than a school where 30% are in a fraternity/sorority, but actually 50% or 60% want to be in one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do know you can transfer - right? I do not feel bad for anyone who just whines and doesn't try to do anything about it.

If you watch this kid’s YouTube video on where he got in, you will see he is the child of immigrants with a very low income. I don’t think transferring is easy for kids that are on large amounts of financial aid. He was a questbridge finalist or something, so under $65,000 HHI

Wonder if part of his problem is meeting kids there who have immense family wealth and he’s being eaten up with jealousy. It’s one thing to know that billionaires exist, it’s another to meet one and think “why him and not me?”

May not be jealousy- but even if others are trotting to include him he would be excluded.

Kind of hard to not have any spending money and get asked to go to the Witherspoon grill for dinner and be expected to drop a min of $100.

Or get asked to go to someone’s ski house in Utah, and forget about not having $ for the flight but having to rent skis, get clothing, having $ for going out.

I am sure being around so many with $ is an issue - but I would not perceive it as jealousy but honestly not being able to fit in with Ben if others are not intentionally excluding him. He cannot easily live in their world unless they foot the bill for him - that’s a fact.

It may not be jealousy but simply being aware that the world of rich people exists and you're not in it (and never will be) cannot fail to affect your attitude towards those people and the place where you encountered them.

An opposite perspective. I was a scholarship kid from a blue collar family at a selective university where I encountered seriously rich kids for the first time. Not “private school, vacation in Europe, drive a Mercedes” rich but “went to boarding school in NH/NY/CT because my parent live in Saudi or Qatar and they have hired someone to come clean our room and do our laundry once a week” rich. My rich friends were always really generous and their families were really welcoming. I remember a girl in my dorm lending me a dress to go to the opera and giving me a crash course on what to expect and how to act ahead of time. Little things add up over 4 years and I graduated into a consulting job with lots of hotels, airport lounges, and client dinners. Nothing in my pre-college life had prepared me for flying 1st class or accepting a client’s invite to play tennis at her club - but my experiences in college did.

The NYTimes has a good analysis of social mobility--your story happens, but it's relatively rare. Most selective schools have a lot of very rich kids, relatively few lower income, and very few students . At the time of their analysis, for instance, at Princeton about 1.3% of the low income kids who went there went on to become a rich adult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do know you can transfer - right? I do not feel bad for anyone who just whines and doesn't try to do anything about it.

If you watch this kid’s YouTube video on where he got in, you will see he is the child of immigrants with a very low income. I don’t think transferring is easy for kids that are on large amounts of financial aid. He was a questbridge finalist or something, so under $65,000 HHI

Wonder if part of his problem is meeting kids there who have immense family wealth and he’s being eaten up with jealousy. It’s one thing to know that billionaires exist, it’s another to meet one and think “why him and not me?”

May not be jealousy- but even if others are trotting to include him he would be excluded.

Kind of hard to not have any spending money and get asked to go to the Witherspoon grill for dinner and be expected to drop a min of $100.

Or get asked to go to someone’s ski house in Utah, and forget about not having $ for the flight but having to rent skis, get clothing, having $ for going out.

I am sure being around so many with $ is an issue - but I would not perceive it as jealousy but honestly not being able to fit in with Ben if others are not intentionally excluding him. He cannot easily live in their world unless they foot the bill for him - that’s a fact.

It may not be jealousy but simply being aware that the world of rich people exists and you're not in it (and never will be) cannot fail to affect your attitude towards those people and the place where you encountered them.

An opposite perspective. I was a scholarship kid from a blue collar family at a selective university where I encountered seriously rich kids for the first time. Not “private school, vacation in Europe, drive a Mercedes” rich but “went to boarding school in NH/NY/CT because my parent live in Saudi or Qatar and they have hired someone to come clean our room and do our laundry once a week” rich. My rich friends were always really generous and their families were really welcoming. I remember a girl in my dorm lending me a dress to go to the opera and giving me a crash course on what to expect and how to act ahead of time. Little things add up over 4 years and I graduated into a consulting job with lots of hotels, airport lounges, and client dinners. Nothing in my pre-college life had prepared me for flying 1st class or accepting a client’s invite to play tennis at her club - but my experiences in college did.

The NYTimes has a good analysis of social mobility--your story happens, but it's relatively rare. Most selective schools have a lot of very rich kids, relatively few lower income, and very few students . At the time of their analysis, for instance, at Princeton about 1.3% of the low income kids who went there went on to become a rich adult.

Another finding from the same study, which obviously is based on some historical data, was that, among the Ivies, the chances of a student moving from a family in the bottom 20% of income to the top 20% of income as an adult was highest at Princeton.

Feel free to cherry pick other statistics from the study as you see fit. It’s an interesting study. The most significant finding isn’t how students from low-income families who attend elite schools fare later, but rather that there are still huge structural barriers for most students from low-income families to attend an elite school in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Sweet kid, thank you for taking the time to post this. Please take of yourself. ❤️

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sweet kid, thank you for taking the time to post this. Please take of yourself. ❤️

I'm sure this kid from California who is now at an Ivy is following DCUM and not finishing the problem set that's probably overdue as it is, lol.