Wake vs William and Mary
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Anonymous
Agree. And W&M has a 4.5 score (out of 5) for the Campus Pride Index. https://campusprideindex.org/campuses/details/141?campus=william-&-mary |
Anonymous
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Wake alum, married to a Wake Alum with a kid at WM. They have a lot in common academically. Small classes, professor involvement, etc. The downside to Wake that I missed when I applied and regretted my senior yearnis that it is very pre-professional. It seemed like everyone was pre- law, med, MBA, 5 year accounting degree, etc. I had very weak placement applying for PhD programs— despite being phi beta kappa and summa cum laude. WM also has a lot of pre-professional, but they also place kids well in non-professional grad programs.
I got a great education. And I think DC is getting a similarly excellent education at WM. But the relationships and mentoring wasn’t there to go on for a PhD— at least in my major, which was a popular one. Besides that, I’d certainly consider them academic peer schools. They are very different socially. Wake’s Greek scene really dominates the school and the culture is very Southern. WM’s has a much more relaxed Greek scene— it plays a role, but not an outsized one. Wake has a much stronger D1 sports scene. And I was there during the Tim Duncan years, which was great. But many years, Wake’s big time sports are meh. This isn’t UNC or Duke and don’t count on them getting a bid to March Madness while your kid is there. Football has improved, so Bowl prospects are better DH and I encouraged our kids to apply to WM, but not Wake. We just couldn’t justify the price tag, when WM is just as good. And we don’t have kids with an interest in Greek life (or watching sports) or who would like the Southern vibe. Also, WM kids trend UMC/affluent. Wake has a lot of flat out rich kids. Only you know if that’s the crowd your kids wants to run with— or can afford to run with. YMMV, but having actual experience with both, it would be hard to swallow the extra cost for Wake. And given our particular kids, it didn’t look like a great fit anyway. Plus— not gonna lie— I grew up near Wake and my parents still live a 1/2 hour away— and Winston-Salem is fine. But interesting college town, great culture, etc— not so much. And given the location of its campus, Wake is kind of isolated from what W-S does have to offer, especially without a car. I’m not sure how dependable Uber is in WS now, but in my time, way too many kids left campus to party and drove back drunk. Williamsburg is also not a college town, but there is a lot more that’s walkable and the bus system works well for campus. So, slightly different strengths, but great educationally. Look at your finances and your kids preferences for their social life. My 2 cents. |
Anonymous
| W&M did just get a new basketball coach (former HC of Cornell) and the football program is solid. Not at all comparable to the ACC of course but I wouldn't let that be a deal breaker. |
Anonymous
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My son who iis a preppy, bro, fratty guy loved WF when he toured. He felt like he could ED on the spot. In contrast he felt no draw at all to W&M.
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Anonymous
You can tell it’s been a few decades since you attended Wake (to be fair, not reasonable to expect any parent’s recollections of a college back in the 1990s to accurately reflect the experience an undergrad will have in the mid 2020s). Wake has a small campus called Wake Downtown (Medical School, research labs and some undergrad classroom space) and there is a shuttle run between the two from the main quad, about a 10 minute drive, so easy access to downtown Winston. And yes, of course kids Uber. Winston Salem itself has gentrified quite a bit with two new Kimpton hotels downtown and a slew of bars and restaurants. There is even a surprising number of expensive condos. It’s definitely not particularly southern anymore with large contingents of students from the Northeast (seems to be the largest group)., California and Florida. Greek life is definitely still big, but there are no longer any fraternity or sorority houses, instead groups are allocated space in dorms (only sophomores can live in these areas and generally only about half of any pledge class due to size constraints). When you attended, Wake likely has little on campus housing. Now it is available for all four years and required for the first three. All of the dorms have been renovated in the past decade, but the dorms that were built in the past decade to support this initiative are particularly nice. I don’t think much weight should be placed on an academic experience from the 1990s either, so much has changed.but would agree that business, stem, and pre-law remain popular. The new president has a STEM background and increasing research opportunities for undergrads has been a priority and the new lab facilities are gorgeous, The engineering program is relatively new but fully accredited. The student rec center/gym is really beyond words, nicer than we saw anywhere else, including USC. |
Anonymous
Agree with this, they are both strong academically but most kids will feel a stronger connection to one or the other. |
Anonymous
I was at was in the early 90s— not the old campus in Wake Forest. You are making a lot of incorrect assumptions. When I attended, 2 years of living on campus was required, but almost everyone lived 4. There was plenty of on campus housing for everyone. But the undergrad size was closer to 3500, which is a big difference. They did shuttle to the medical school back then (I used it to do research in the med school library for a professor). And frats and sororities were housed in dorms back then— there were no frat or sorority houses (on campus— DEKEs and a couple others had off campus housing). Heck I pledged. Half heartedly and it didn’t really stick, but there wasn’t much else to do. And W-S was starting to gentrify. It wasnt High Point. But, it also wasn’t area search Triangle or Charlotte. Still isn’t. I still have friends and family near Wake, professors I keep up with at Wake, connections on campus and am in the area several times a year. WS got somewhat hit by the 2008 financial crisis (lot of manufacturing bankruptcies nearby). But it has developed a nice downtown. But it really isn’t a “college town”. Nor is WM a college town, although more is walkable/bikeable. COMPARED TO WM, and as someone who has actual first hand experience with both, I’ll stand by comparable academic experience, with Wake being more Southern and more Greek-centric. And add conservative (in a Bush Republican way, not a MAGA way). And that’s not a criticism. Many kids want that in a school. Mine, not so much. No one school is right for everyone. PP who said their athlete frat bro loved it is on point— that’s big part of the social scene. Wake got hit hard by USNWR (as did WM) for lack of SES diversity. It’s a rich kids school. WM is an UMC kids school. Neither one are attracting a lot of URMs or Pell Grant kids. The Uber comment was a side note. My friends in WS with HS aged kids in the area complain about them not being able to get Ubers reliably and Uber Eats orders being cancelled. But, sample size in the single digits. I’m sure if there is a need near Wake on weekends Uber there. Given its location, I would not send a kid to Wake without an Uber account and a pledge to pay weekend bills and not ask questions. It’s hard to get anywhere without driving. |
Anonymous
| DD had WF, BC and W&M as her final 3, went with W&M, just was a better fit for her, although ability to waive foreign language requirement at W&M played a role in the decision. |
Anonymous
My kid is a current student and my brother graduated in 2010. It’s changed a lot even since my brother attended. Not sure why I would think your three decade old experience is more relevant. |
Anonymous
I wasn’t aware only the person with the “most relevant” experience could comment. Op asked for first hand info about differences between two schools. I have a kid a one of these schools and am an alum of the other *and as I said, still have connections at the school and visit it*. Largely because DH was affiliated with the medical school until recently, but also because of college friends affiliated with the school. And I certainly know the High Point-GSO-WS area well. So, it seemed like maybe I was in the position to comment on the differences. Honestly, I’m not sure what your deal is. It’s not like I’m Wake bashing. I think it’s an academically excellent school and a WM peer. WM was more my kids speed (and is undeniably a better price point in state). But that’s their personal preference. Other kids would strongly prefer Wake. Compared to WM (and not, say, Roll Tide), Wake’s culture is also more Greek, more Southern, and more conservative (which the anti-woke crowd assures me is a plus). It has more marquee sports and has a wealthier student body (see also the $$$$$ price point). Neither school is in a traditional “college town”. Which of these points do you think is incorrect? SMH. Seriously— where am I wrong. I’m not the one saying — well in the 90s there were fraternity houses (nope) and most kids didn’t live on campus (again, wrong). Sometimes when someone asks: what is the difference between X and Y, having someone with actual knowledge of both X and Y answer is helpful. Sure, it would be great if a bunch of people with kids currently enrolled in both answered. But thus far no one has. So, you get my opinion. Which is: can’t go wrong educationally with either. But they do tend to attract kids looking for different things. As always, visit and see where your particular kid is comfortable. |
Anonymous
| I’m the original author of this post and your responses have been hugely helpful. We are in VA, so will have to see. Your points are all what I’ve observed, so thank you for confirming. Thanks again!!! |
Anonymous
I disagree that Wake is more Southern although I suppose that depends on whether you consider VA as southern. Wake currently draws 22 percent of its kids from NC, 35 percent from the Northeast, another 12 percent from California and Florida. W and M is of course mostly Virginians with the remaining 30 percent divided among a variety of states. Both are rated as having higher than average geographical diversity, fwiw. Wake was no question significantly more southern and more religious when you attended. It may have still been considered a regional university by US News. I can’t speak to your experience of course, but the Greek organizations has significantly more autonomy when my brother attended 15 years ago. And the structure they have in the dorms today with the lounges didn’t exist 15 years ago, so I can only imagine it was also different 15 years before that. No question Greek life is popular at Wake but it is much more supervised and understated than somewhere like Alabama. In fact, the percentage of men in fraternities between the two schools is nearly identical (36 percent at Wake to 32 at William and Mary). Sorority participation, however, is definitely higher at Wake. I think academically is where the school has likely changed the most. Yes, the old medical school was somewhere downtown. But the current medical school, undergraduate classroom space and research labs known as Wake Downtown is all newly built in converted warehouses that formerly belonged to RJ Reynolds. In the past decade, the school has focused on strengthening its STEM offerings. The small class sizes and professors who both teach and conduct research I believe has always been part of the model. It certainly is a requirement now for all tenured professors that they do both. Reglion used to be a required area of study.m it is no longer. |
Anonymous
There probably isn’t much difference in terms of “percentage of kids who live in a state that was once in the confederacy”. In fact, being a state school in VA, WM may technically have more “southern kids” if you consider all VA residents “Southern”. I grew up in NC and definitely don’t. NC (outside of RTP and maybe Asheville) is so much more Southern culturally than NOVA. Which has pluses and minuses. And is a whole other thread. (Bless your heart and have you joined the Junior League? And where is your church home?) Wake is more Southern culturally than WM (which is 1/3 NOVA and 1/3 OOS) - and more Greek-centric socially for that matter. But maybe the problem we’re running into here is that “Southern” isn’t a monolith— t can cover VA and even MD to GA to FL to TX. Wake is Southern (and Greek for that matter) in the model of UVA or maybe UNC, and not in the model of the SEC schools. And just as most people would agree that UVA has a more Southern (and Greek) feel than WM, Wake also has a more Southern and Greek fee than WMl. But, Wake is much less culturally Southern than Alabama or Ole Miss or Auburn. So on the 1-10 “Southern” scale, WM is maybe a 2-3, Wake a 5-6 and Alabama a 9. You can quibble about exactly numbers, but it’s a spectrum. Also not sure how much Wake has changed academically. It was always strong in humanities. But, it’s also been strong in the sciences for decades. Great pre-med, but I also know a couple of kids who went into Ivy or Ivy equivalent PhD programs in physics. CS wasn’t much of a department— it was relatively new 30-35 years ago everywhere except schools like Ga Tech. And although I think Wake has a real shot at making a name for itself in biomedical engineering and similar in time, right now, the program is too new to be an engineering destination. As for mentored research, Wake was ahead of its time there. Professors absolutely had to research if they were tenure tracked. And DH and I both had significant mentored research opportunities— mine on the humanities side and his in STEM. We didn’t even seek them out. It was just talking to a professor, who mentioned they could use researchers, if we were intereste In fact, DH is named on a patent from his research, which he started as an undergrad and continued as a FT employee for a few years after graduating. For a while, we even had an income stream from it. We looked at WM as our instate options and SLACs more broadly for our kids (one now at WM and one now at a SLAC) precisely because we felt that the small classes/ research opportunities/ involvement with and access to professors was such a valuable part of our educations. And Greek Orgs rented lounges from the university and were assigned blocks of rooms in dorms. (Which meant that if you lived in a dorm that had Frat Housing there was a 100% chance you would be standing outside in your PJs in 20 degree weather at 3 am on any given weekend in January because some guy had gotten drunk and pulled the fire alarm. Good times). my understanding from my old sorority is that the set up is essentially the same— but I admit to not really caring or paying too much attention. As for the religion class? Yeah. That was a legacy of Wake splitting from the Southern Baptist Convention in the 80s. Not surprised it’s no longer required— although at the time, religion classes were held in Wait Chapel, which was cool, and could be any religion or anything related to any religion. I took Catholic ethics— and then used all of the original source reading I did to explain to my parents why I was leaving the Catholic Church because of the blatant hypocrisy. Which was NOT what they had in mind when they sent me to Wake. Of course, you also needed to take Philosophy, Intro American Lit, Intro Bit Lit, Lit in Translation, 4 semester of foreign language plus Lit in a foreign language, 3 social science classes from3 different departments, 2 PE classes (one which was supposed to be about nutrition and was actually a lot of films about the horrors of meat processing plants given taught by a rapid vegan who had a fatal heart attack at a pretty young age while jogging around campus), a lab science an 2 semesters of Calc (or one semester of Calc and 2 lab sciences) etc. It was kind of insane and my understanding is they've cut the core requirements down quite a bit. |
Anonymous
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Omg, I had forgotten the horrors of meat processing videos! Scarred for life.
-signed wake alum class of ‘98 |
Anonymous
Yes they have. No one particular class required, just requirement to have so many classes from certain divisions. |