Is Israel turning into a Liability for the U.S.?

[Anonymous]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37523915/ns/world_news-washington_post//

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010/06/01/Mossad-chief-Israel-becomes-US-burden/UPI-53841275428444/

It has long been argued that we should support Israel and tolerate the problems it brings, because overall Israel is an important ally to the United States. The head of the Mossad recently said that Israel is turning into a burden. I hate to say it because I have many friends in Israel, but I think it is true.

Israeli leaders watch two sets of polls. The first is of their own population. The second is of the U.S, and in particular of American Jews. It is clear that the leadership are aware of the importance of this community's support, both because of their direct contribution to the state of Israel and because of their influence on the U.S. government.

A long time ago, ships were sailing toward Palestine, just as they are today. Back then, they were carrying immigrants and refugees to the land that would become Israel. Back then the British were turning them back. They had the legal right to do it. And they rightly argued that they did so for a valid security concern -- namely that the expansion of the Jewish population in Palestine would create generations of conflict between Arabs and Jews. But the ships still sailed because it was the right thing to do. Today's ships are also looking for justice. Their goal is not to bring weapons to Gaza, or even to eliminate Israel's right to security. They are protesting the Israeli government's use of security concerns to justify an economic stranglehold on Gaza. It is wrong, and it is ultimately futile. Those 1.5 million Gazans aren't going anywhere, and we all know what poverty does to politics.


I think it is OK to be a supporter of Israel without uncritically supporting Israel. Now is a time to think critically about how it is approaching the Palestinian problem. Our opinions matter to the Israeli government and to ours.

[Anonymous]

Why is Israel blocking Gaza? Does it have a long-term plan/wish for the region?

Sorry, clueless person here.

[Anonymous]

They have been a liability, but that's not going to change our relationship.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Why is Israel blocking Gaza? Does it have a long-term plan/wish for the region?

Sorry, clueless person here.

Israel is opposed to Hamas, the Palestinian organization that currently controls Gaza. Hamas won a free and fair election, but its victory was not recognized by Israel, the US, or Fatah. After Fatah refused to relinquish power, Hamas took over by force and evicted Fatah from Gaza. Israel had already placed an embargo on Gaza after Hamas' election victory, but then launched a full-scale blockade on Gaza. Israel claim's the embargo is to prevent Hamas from obtaining weapons, but the blockade includes construction materials and even some fairly basic foodstuffs. More realistically, Israel is hoping that its actions will cause Gazans to turn against Hamas. But, as is generally the case, it is causing people to rally around Hamas instead.

Hamas once sponsored suicide bombings, but hasn't done so for years. Nevertheless, that correctly caused the organization to be labeled as a terrorist organization. More recently, Hamas has fired rockets into southern Israel. Hamas claims the rockets are in response to Israeli attacks. As is generally the case, each side in the conflict claims they are retaliating for the other's attacks. Attacks are frequent enough that you can argue it either way.

[Anonymous]

Isn't it interesting the only way the suicide bombings were stopped was when Israel was smart enough to build a wall...maybe that's why Hamas hasn't had any luck in this for years.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Isn't it interesting the only way the suicide bombings were stopped was when Israel was smart enough to build a wall...maybe that's why Hamas hasn't had any luck in this for years.

Hamas stopped sponsoring bombings well before the wall was built. Moreover, the wall is between Israel and the West Bank, not Israel and Gaza. The bombings stopped because the Europeans told Hamas to choose whether it wanted to be a legitimate organization or a terrorist organization, with the added incentive that aid would only be provided to a legitimate organization. Also, it had become clear that the bombings were doing more damage to Palestinians then to Israelis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Isn't it interesting the only way the suicide bombings were stopped was when Israel was smart enough to build a wall...maybe that's why Hamas hasn't had any luck in this for years.

You really don't understand the situation there. There is no way to keep something like that out of Israel.

This is what is happening to the suicide attacks. I know it would be hard for you to believe, so I quoted an Israeli newspaper: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/palestinians-we-thwarted-suicide-attack-against-israel-1.266125

[Anonymous]

They are a liability because most Arab countries still seem bent on getting rid of Israel and so our support of them is not helping us in a place that's churning out our greatest enemies right now. However, we should still support Israel. I'm not jewish but think that Israel has done most of what it's done because of the provocation from the Palestinians such as suicide bombers and rocket attacks on civilians. the Palestinians - and Hamas particularly - have for quite some time launched vicious attacks with the express purpose of killing civilians. All the while, many continue to call for wiping Israel off the map. This has of course caused Israel to take extreme measures it views as being necessary to secure its country.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't it interesting the only way the suicide bombings were stopped was when Israel was smart enough to build a wall...maybe that's why Hamas hasn't had any luck in this for years.

Hamas stopped sponsoring bombings well before the wall was built. Moreover, the wall is between Israel and the West Bank, not Israel and Gaza. The bombings stopped because the Europeans told Hamas to choose whether it wanted to be a legitimate organization or a terrorist organization, with the added incentive that aid would only be provided to a legitimate organization. Also, it had become clear that the bombings were doing more damage to Palestinians then to Israelis.

Right, Hamas stopped sponsoring state-funded terror b/c the European governments told them to. Then why have thousands of rockets (built with cement and metal they want) been landing into southern Israel? Why, still to this day, is Israel, and in some cases Fatah, stopping terrorist acts before they occur. You are naive to think that Hamas doesn't sponsor terrorism to this day. See today's news even! Why would a "legitimate" government even store weapons in schools and mosques?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Right, Hamas stopped sponsoring state-funded terror b/c the European governments told them to. Then why have thousands of rockets (built with cement and metal they want) been landing into southern Israel? Why, still to this day, is Israel, and in some cases Fatah, stopping terrorist acts before they occur. You are naive to think that Hamas doesn't sponsor terrorism to this day. See today's news even! Why would a "legitimate" government even store weapons in schools and mosques?

You really should spend a bit more time learning and a little less time spouting incorrect information. First, I said that Hamas stopped sponsoring suicide bombings. If you think that Hamas sponsors "state-funded" terror, than you must believe that Hamas somehow leads a state. It would be nice if you let us know what state that is. And, yes, the Europeans made it very clear to Hamas that the suicide bombings needed to end.

Those killed by Israel today belonged to an off-shoot of Fatah. That had nothing to do with Hamas (other than perhaps Fatah trying to get back into the limelight given that everyone has all but forgotten about them).

Finally, do you really believe that rockets are built with cement? How much education have you had?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Right, Hamas stopped sponsoring state-funded terror b/c the European governments told them to. Then why have thousands of rockets (built with cement and metal they want) been landing into southern Israel? Why, still to this day, is Israel, and in some cases Fatah, stopping terrorist acts before they occur. You are naive to think that Hamas doesn't sponsor terrorism to this day. See today's news even! Why would a "legitimate" government even store weapons in schools and mosques?

You really should spend a bit more time learning and a little less time spouting incorrect information. First, I said that Hamas stopped sponsoring suicide bombings. If you think that Hamas sponsors "state-funded" terror, than you must believe that Hamas somehow leads a state. It would be nice if you let us know what state that is. And, yes, the Europeans made it very clear to Hamas that the suicide bombings needed to end.

Those killed by Israel today belonged to an off-shoot of Fatah. That had nothing to do with Hamas (other than perhaps Fatah trying to get back into the limelight given that everyone has all but forgotten about them).

Finally, do you really believe that rockets are built with cement? How much education have you had?

First rule of DCUM, Jeff is already right. Second rule of DCUM, Jeff is always right. Third rule of DCUM, Jeff will pull out the “how much education do you really have card”. Always interesting to debate you.

Cement is not used in rockets per se, but is used for the facilities needed to shoot them (effectively) from, make bunkers, tunnels and the like. Which I’m sure you know. Which would allow for even more smuggling to happen.

Hamas has control of Gaza—so clever, Jeff, with your “state” nomenclature. I should have called it territory-funded terror. Well, Hamas has control of Gaza. They should act like leaders.

So the Europeans said they need to rein in suicide bombings but firing rockets into Israel is OK? Um, ok.

And apologies, but I don’t really see a difference between Hamas sponsored terrorism and Al Aqsa sponsored terrorism. In the end, Israel, and perhaps even Fatah, thank god, stopped them.

[Anonymous]

Well thank God Egypt has decided to open their borders. We all forget that Egypt is also responsible for the inhumane way in which 1.5 million men, women and children have been subjected to an open prison called Gaza.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:First rule of DCUM, Jeff is already right. Second rule of DCUM, Jeff is always right. Third rule of DCUM, Jeff will pull out the “how much education do you really have card”. Always interesting to debate you.

Thanks. You are right that I was a bit hasty. After all, you might simply be a genius who has figured out the secret to cement rockets.

Anonymous wrote:Cement is not used in rockets per se, but is used for the facilities needed to shoot them (effectively) from, make bunkers, tunnels and the like. Which I’m sure you know. Which would allow for even more smuggling to happen.

The rockets are portable. Hamas doesn't fire them from bunkers. Granted, cement might help with tunnels, but tunnels already exist. Cement is not needed for them. Do you really support keeping people in tents because you are afraid that cement will be used for tunnels? That doesn't make much sense, plus is very cruel.

Anonymous wrote:Hamas has control of Gaza—so clever, Jeff, with your “state” nomenclature. I should have called it territory-funded terror. Well, Hamas has control of Gaza. They should act like leaders.

Fair enough. They should be allowed to control their own imports.

Anonymous wrote:So the Europeans said they need to rein in suicide bombings but firing rockets into Israel is OK? Um, ok.

I don't know what the Europeans said about rockets. But, you can't deny that Hamas-backed suicide bombings stopped years ago. If you are not willing to accept my explanation, what is yours? Yes, I know you believe it is the result of a wall on the other side of Israel that wasn't built at the time Hamas stopped the bombings, but do you have a more believable explanation?

Anonymous wrote:And apologies, but I don’t really see a difference between Hamas sponsored terrorism and Al Aqsa sponsored terrorism. In the end, Israel, and perhaps even Fatah, thank god, stopped them.

No need for apologies. I long ago accepted your lack of interest in accuracy. Obviously, its better for you to just blame everything on Hamas regardless of the reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Right, Hamas stopped sponsoring state-funded terror b/c the European governments told them to. Then why have thousands of rockets (built with cement and metal they want) been landing into southern Israel? Why, still to this day, is Israel, and in some cases Fatah, stopping terrorist acts before they occur. You are naive to think that Hamas doesn't sponsor terrorism to this day. See today's news even! Why would a "legitimate" government even store weapons in schools and mosques?

You really should spend a bit more time learning and a little less time spouting incorrect information. First, I said that Hamas stopped sponsoring suicide bombings. If you think that Hamas sponsors "state-funded" terror, than you must believe that Hamas somehow leads a state. It would be nice if you let us know what state that is. And, yes, the Europeans made it very clear to Hamas that the suicide bombings needed to end.

Those killed by Israel today belonged to an off-shoot of Fatah. That had nothing to do with Hamas (other than perhaps Fatah trying to get back into the limelight given that everyone has all but forgotten about them).

Finally, do you really believe that rockets are built with cement? How much education have you had?

First rule of DCUM, Jeff is already right. Second rule of DCUM, Jeff is always right. Third rule of DCUM, Jeff will pull out the “how much education do you really have card”. Always interesting to debate you.

Cement is not used in rockets per se, but is used for the facilities needed to shoot them (effectively) from, make bunkers, tunnels and the like. Which I’m sure you know. Which would allow for even more smuggling to happen.

Hamas has control of Gaza—so clever, Jeff, with your “state” nomenclature. I should have called it territory-funded terror. Well, Hamas has control of Gaza. They should act like leaders.

So the Europeans said they need to rein in suicide bombings but firing rockets into Israel is OK? Um, ok.

And apologies, but I don’t really see a difference between Hamas sponsored terrorism and Al Aqsa sponsored terrorism. In the end, Israel, and perhaps even Fatah, thank god, stopped them.

Israel cannot ban cement merely because someone can build a tunnel out of cement. Building materials are a basic necessity. Israel has to find another way that doesn't involve forcing people to live in squalor.

[Anonymous]

http://www.economist.com/node/16274281

The policy began within weeks of Israel’s pull-out from Gaza in 2005. At the start, America tried to keep the gates open, brokering an Agreement on Movement and Access with Israel to allow the export from Gaza of hundreds of trucks of produce a day, regular bus convoys to and from the West Bank and the opening of a Palestinian-controlled crossing at Rafah to Egypt. But the agreement was in ink only. After just one year Gaza’s exports stood at a mere 8% of the agreed amount, Rafah was closed and the buses never came. Once the strip was under Hamas’s total control, Israel declared it a hostile entity, and prevented movement to and from the territory.

Initially Hamas and other militant groups, drunk on their self-claimed success in forcing Israel’s departure, sought to fight their way out with projectiles. The number of mostly home-made rockets hitting Israel rose from 281 in 2004 to 1,750 in 2008; and their range rose from a few kilometres to reach Tel Aviv’s outskirts. But stung by the ferocity of Israel’s reprisals, most lethally in the January 2009 war, Hamas reined in its fire and forced others to do likewise. So far this year 34 rockets have landed in Israel, none launched by Hamas. “Hamas is defending Israel,” chuckles an Israeli foreign ministry official.