Anonymous
09/02/2013 12:58
Subject: Re:Firing live in nanny
The original post was back on 8/13. The nanny has been fired and moved out already by now.
This is one of the reasons why its better to hire a live in nanny with tenant status dependent on employment. Some people do hire live in nannies and then subtract the rent. In areas where live-in nannies make below minimum wage, this is one way to pay less. The live in is paid minimum wage for all hours worked but then the rent value is subtracted post-tax. In this situation, the nanny is paying a rent and it is a landord/renter tenant situation subject to higher laws than a tenant conditioned on employment or at-will. The above scenario is more economical to the employer but creates more difficult tax accounting and more complexity with termination. Room/board conditioned on employment allows for easier termination for the employer and pays higher for the nanny as the lowest rate would be minimum wage.
This is one of the reasons why its better to hire a live in nanny with tenant status dependent on employment. Some people do hire live in nannies and then subtract the rent. In areas where live-in nannies make below minimum wage, this is one way to pay less. The live in is paid minimum wage for all hours worked but then the rent value is subtracted post-tax. In this situation, the nanny is paying a rent and it is a landord/renter tenant situation subject to higher laws than a tenant conditioned on employment or at-will. The above scenario is more economical to the employer but creates more difficult tax accounting and more complexity with termination. Room/board conditioned on employment allows for easier termination for the employer and pays higher for the nanny as the lowest rate would be minimum wage.
Anonymous
09/02/2013 12:30
Subject: Re:Firing live in nanny
Anonymous wrote:You had best learn your local law before doing something stupid. I know for a fact that in some states you can't even throw out a non paying "friend" who has been staying with you, unless they have another place to go. I suspect the state can't accommodate you in a homeless shelter every time some "friends" have an argument. And no, you don't always have to have a written agreement. So I really don't believe an employer has the legal right to put you out on the street without proper notice, just because she's having a meltdown.
If the nanny reported you to the local police, you'd be ordered to give the nanny proper notice to vacate the premises. The exception would be if the nanny was breaking any laws, which would be highly unlikely, unless you hired a criminal, not a nanny.
This is about as true as the illegal nannies who posted once that its discrimination to ask candidate if they are legal to work in the US and you can be sued for not hiring them. They were confusing state laws with nationality as a protected class for employers over 50 and completely ignoring that it is a legal requirement to confirm legal status to work before hiring.
If your nanny refuses to leave, in most states, only the sheriff's office can perform a forcible eviction (physically removing the occupant and their property).. You would notify the sheriff's office and they could remove her items, place them on the street and they would be thrown out if she does not claim them in a specified period of time.
I doubt the situation would come to this. Just fire her and tell her to move out.
To which jurisdiction are you referring?
Anonymous
09/02/2013 12:23
Subject: Re:Firing live in nanny
You had best learn your local law before doing something stupid. I know for a fact that in some states you can't even throw out a non paying "friend" who has been staying with you, unless they have another place to go. I suspect the state can't accommodate you in a homeless shelter every time some "friends" have an argument. And no, you don't always have to have a written agreement. So I really don't believe an employer has the legal right to put you out on the street without proper notice, just because she's having a meltdown.
If the nanny reported you to the local police, you'd be ordered to give the nanny proper notice to vacate the premises. The exception would be if the nanny was breaking any laws, which would be highly unlikely, unless you hired a criminal, not a nanny.
This is about as true as the illegal nannies who posted once that its discrimination to ask candidate if they are legal to work in the US and you can be sued for not hiring them. They were confusing state laws with nationality as a protected class for employers over 50 and completely ignoring that it is a legal requirement to confirm legal status to work before hiring.
If your nanny refuses to leave, in most states, only the sheriff's office can perform a forcible eviction (physically removing the occupant and their property).. You would notify the sheriff's office and they could remove her items, place them on the street and they would be thrown out if she does not claim them in a specified period of time.
I doubt the situation would come to this. Just fire her and tell her to move out.
Anonymous
09/02/2013 00:21
Subject: Firing live in nanny
Anonymous wrote:You had best learn your local law before doing something stupid. I know for a fact that in some states you can't even throw out a non paying "friend" who has been staying with you, unless they have another place to go. I suspect the state can't accommodate you in a homeless shelter every time some "friends" have an argument. And no, you don't always have to have a written agreement. So I really don't believe an employer has the legal right to put you out on the street without proper notice, just because she's having a meltdown.
If the nanny reported you to the local police, you'd be ordered to give the nanny proper notice to vacate the premises. The exception would be if the nanny was breaking any laws, which would be highly unlikely, unless you hired a criminal, not a nanny.
Just check your local laws, people. You may be very surprised. You can even ask your local police department. If the nanny doesn't yet have her next job lined up, you have to put she up until she does, typically for at least 30 days.
Anonymous
08/17/2013 19:04
Subject: Firing live in nanny
You had best learn your local law before doing something stupid. I know for a fact that in some states you can't even throw out a non paying "friend" who has been staying with you, unless they have another place to go. I suspect the state can't accommodate you in a homeless shelter every time some "friends" have an argument. And no, you don't always have to have a written agreement. So I really don't believe an employer has the legal right to put you out on the street without proper notice, just because she's having a meltdown.
If the nanny reported you to the local police, you'd be ordered to give the nanny proper notice to vacate the premises. The exception would be if the nanny was breaking any laws, which would be highly unlikely, unless you hired a criminal, not a nanny.
If the nanny reported you to the local police, you'd be ordered to give the nanny proper notice to vacate the premises. The exception would be if the nanny was breaking any laws, which would be highly unlikely, unless you hired a criminal, not a nanny.
Anonymous
08/16/2013 19:19
Subject: Re:Firing live in nanny
I would fire her. If this nanny has been late and cancelled with no notice in the first week without having an extremely good explanation, she is not going to work out. There is no point in continuing to deal with this and its better for both parties to end the employment sooner rather than later.
Agree with others that nannies do not automatically tenants. They sometimes become tenant-at-will but tenants at will do not require notification beyond what is specified in their contract.
A tenant relationship involves the tenant compensating the landlord for the time the housing is used. Most states have 30 day notice laws but the tenant is still responsible for the rent fees during this 30 day period. Most landlords handle this by keeping the security deposit/first and last month's rent or can go to a collection agency. The 30 day notice period isn't a free rent month period. For an employee who is exchanging work for rent, they have no way of upholding their end of the compensation if they no longer are working either because they quit or were fired.
Agree with others that nannies do not automatically tenants. They sometimes become tenant-at-will but tenants at will do not require notification beyond what is specified in their contract.
A tenant relationship involves the tenant compensating the landlord for the time the housing is used. Most states have 30 day notice laws but the tenant is still responsible for the rent fees during this 30 day period. Most landlords handle this by keeping the security deposit/first and last month's rent or can go to a collection agency. The 30 day notice period isn't a free rent month period. For an employee who is exchanging work for rent, they have no way of upholding their end of the compensation if they no longer are working either because they quit or were fired.
Anonymous
08/16/2013 09:58
Subject: Firing live in nanny
Personally, I think the language about firing the nanny is pre-mature. She has been on the job a single week, and the first day she was late, the MB said nothing to her. So she doesn't even know she is in trouble, and the first she will here of it is when you fire her?
As a manager, I think you really ought to sit down with her and let her know that kind of lateness is unacceptable and give her a warning. Give her a chance to change her behavior. Not a lot of chances, but a chance.
As a manager, I think you really ought to sit down with her and let her know that kind of lateness is unacceptable and give her a warning. Give her a chance to change her behavior. Not a lot of chances, but a chance.
Anonymous
08/15/2013 16:14
Subject: Re:Firing live in nanny
Anonymous wrote:
I think op was just looking for legal advice, not a lesson on ethics. Despite what YOU would do, op needs to protect herself and her family from legal consequences nanny could invoke. 30 days notice and a grand for her to go quietly. Op is at the disadvantage here. The laws are set up to protect the tenant, which the nanny legally became when she moved into op's house. Sure, she could fire her and kick her out tonight. And that might go just fine - but if nanny knows the law and is desperate or vindictive, she could make things difficult for op.
how are you all so sure that the nanny has the same rights of a tenant? I frankly am not so sure about that, and it would not seem reasonable either. a tenant enters into a contract that has as the only object the lease of an apt/house for the tenant to live in. clearly the tenant needs protection so it is not thrown into the street in a day. a live in nanny is an employee who is offered room and board as part of her job contract. I cannot believe that an employer may be forced to keep an employee under his/her roof for a month or more, especially in case the employee is fired for cause like in this case.
This is correct. Unless the nanny has a separate contract as a tenant, she is a border who has room and board as part of her contract.
Anonymous
08/15/2013 14:13
Subject: Firing live in nanny
Anonymous wrote:I think op was just looking for legal advice, not a lesson on ethics. Despite what YOU would do, op needs to protect herself and her family from legal consequences nanny could invoke. 30 days notice and a grand for her to go quietly. Op is at the disadvantage here. The laws are set up to protect the tenant, which the nanny legally became when she moved into op's house. Sure, she could fire her and kick her out tonight. And that might go just fine - but if nanny knows the law and is desperate or vindictive, she could make things difficult for op.
how are you all so sure that the nanny has the same rights of a tenant? I frankly am not so sure about that, and it would not seem reasonable either. a tenant enters into a contract that has as the only object the lease of an apt/house for the tenant to live in. clearly the tenant needs protection so it is not thrown into the street in a day. a live in nanny is an employee who is offered room and board as part of her job contract. I cannot believe that an employer may be forced to keep an employee under his/her roof for a month or more, especially in case the employee is fired for cause like in this case.
Anonymous
08/14/2013 21:36
Subject: Firing live in nanny
Anonymous wrote:I think op was just looking for legal advice, not a lesson on ethics. Despite what YOU would do, op needs to protect herself and her family from legal consequences nanny could invoke. 30 days notice and a grand for her to go quietly. Op is at the disadvantage here. The laws are set up to protect the tenant, which the nanny legally became when she moved into op's house. Sure, she could fire her and kick her out tonight. And that might go just fine - but if nanny knows the law and is desperate or vindictive, she could make things difficult for op.
I think that this is definitely an ethical issue, but I will say that the nanny is not necessarily a tenant. I'm the nanny that was kicked out as a live in and the reason they could do it was because I was technically a "border" in a home. I didn't have a lease agreement separate from my contract and was never referred to as a tenant nor they a landlord. For any nannies considering a live in arrangement *PLEASE* protect yourselves. Get a lease agreement drawn up separately from your employment contract that specifies your living arrangement, and have in your employment contract a termination clause that does not allow them to kick you out without notice even if you are fired for cause or without notice. My employers simply decided that they wanted to rent my space to a friend of theirs, I pushed back, and they threw the book at me. Young, naive, and trusting
Anonymous
08/14/2013 21:28
Subject: Firing live in nanny
Anonymous wrote:I think op was just looking for legal advice, not a lesson on ethics. Despite what YOU would do, op needs to protect herself and her family from legal consequences nanny could invoke. 30 days notice and a grand for her to go quietly. Op is at the disadvantage here. The laws are set up to protect the tenant, which the nanny legally became when she moved into op's house. Sure, she could fire her and kick her out tonight. And that might go just fine - but if nanny knows the law and is desperate or vindictive, she could make things difficult for op.
As she should.
Anonymous
08/14/2013 18:41
Subject: Firing live in nanny
I think op was just looking for legal advice, not a lesson on ethics. Despite what YOU would do, op needs to protect herself and her family from legal consequences nanny could invoke. 30 days notice and a grand for her to go quietly. Op is at the disadvantage here. The laws are set up to protect the tenant, which the nanny legally became when she moved into op's house. Sure, she could fire her and kick her out tonight. And that might go just fine - but if nanny knows the law and is desperate or vindictive, she could make things difficult for op.
Anonymous
08/14/2013 15:16
Subject: Firing live in nanny
OP, is it really that hard to have an adult conversation with a person who you, at one point, trusted enough to move into your home and care for your children?? Stop wasting time here worrying about the opinions of strangers and grow a pair (or don't hire live-ins). If you can't or won't find out what the issue is/was, give her 30 days and move on.
Anonymous
08/14/2013 14:54
Subject: Firing live in nanny
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You have 2 issues: 1. she is an employee. If you have cause, you can term immediately. You are not required to give notice in Va. 2. However, she's also a tenant and, as such, has tenant's rights. You are required to serve her a 30 day notice or she can sue you for unlawful eviction.
I'd give her a 30 day and try to avoid her for the month. I might give her a little "bonus" or "severance package" as an incentive to get out ASAP. $1000 should cover her moving expenses and make a small dent in a deposit and first month's rent on a new place.
TBH, this seems a bit overly generous given the poor work performance. I'd offer her two weeks to get out plus one week's pay as an incentive. If she insists on longer you can offer her more money or agree to 30 days but without any compensation.
I would though be interested like the other PPs to know how a live-in can be so late and if you've actually talked to her about what's going on.
Overly generous or not, we have laws that are in place to protect tenants, which this nanny legally is. OP could be in serious trouble if she gives her two weeks to "get out" - minimum is 30 days notice. Also, nanny can file for unemployment (hoping MB is paying above the table) and that would come out of MB's pocket. I would be very invested in making sure Nanny goes away quietly and try to avoid this situation in the future.
Anonymous
08/14/2013 14:11
Subject: Firing live in nanny
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I understand your concern, but as a former live in whose bosses simultaneously fired and threw out with 24 hours notice (they had a friend they wanted to give my space to), please try to consider her needs as well. Can you imagine having just moved, and losing your job and home in one fell swoop? I had no where to go when it happened to me. I had to give up most of my belongings and spent the next few months in and out of shelters, and couch surfing before I got myself together. She may be a bad employee, but she doesn't deserve to be homeless.
So sad.. To bad nanny didn't think of that when she continued to be late and/or call out.
OP, toss her and worry about your own family.
You are a heartless bitch. Keep worrying about your own family. You'll need to with that attitude, because its bound to f*ck you over in the end.