Anonymous
Post 06/13/2013 07:50     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
Anonymous wrote:The fact that the sitter didn't pay attention to the stated pay rate in the ad would indicate that she lacks attention to detail. If she didn't know the pay rate and failed to ask what it was in the interview, It would indicate that she lacks professionalism or is inexperienced. Bottom line: keep looking.


OP here, this is what I was thinking.
Anonymous
Post 06/13/2013 07:15     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
OP, pay should always ALWAYS be discussed in the first phone conversation. That way, both parties can see if they are on the same page, then proceed if they are.

Since you stated clearly in your ad what you were offering, I find it weird that this woman even responded.
If I see an ad where the pay is not agreeable for me, I simply skip over those ads.
Yes, she may be trying to con you.

I would move on and find someone else.
Anonymous
Post 06/13/2013 02:14     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Nannies and MBs; pay should be discussed in first email MB sends with job and hours description, or first email nanny sends along with cover letter and resume. This way we know what you want and what you want to pay for it and you know our experience and what we are willing to do for X amount of dollars. If we put it all up front less time is wasted making a proper match.


I don't entirely agree with this. I once rejected a nanny candidate because she kept trying to negotiate the rate via text message before we'd even met her, using a tone that was waaay too informal and with no attempt to explain why she was worth more than what we posted. We told her in an initial phone call that we wouldn't be able to accommodate her request but that we could probably meet somewhere in the middle. She responded shortly after with a text saying "Hey, how about $__ [a rate that was $3 less than her initial request and within the range of what we would consider]. We told her that might work and suggested an interview. She said she didn't want to invest time in an interview unless we committed in advance to her requested rate. We hadn't even met her, let alone decided to make an offer at any compensation level. We found her entire approach so inappropriate for someone seeking employment that we told her we had decided to go in a different direction and left it at that.

In every other profession, it is understood that the person offering the job indicates a range for the position and then compensation is negotiated with individual candidates AFTER the initial interview. It is only then that an employer can begin to assess how much they are willing to pay to engage that person. So in OP's case, the mistake was trying to combine the initial interview with a regular work session. I understand you had exchanged emails prior to scheduling that session, but that's just not the same thing.


However, things are a little different when it comes to nannies vs. sitters. Nannies are expected to negotiate their rates after meeting the family, presenting herself, and learning about the position because they will be employees and there is a wide range of details and benefits to work out. A babysitter is an independent contractor who really should be upfront about her rate so parents can decide whether to use her services or not. I don't think the sitter in this case was acting manipulatively, I think she corrected her error in an appropriate timeframe, but it is a different standard than a nanny candidate is held to.


I disagree, except with the part about the sitter not being manipulative. First, by law, sitters are not independent contractors unless they work out of their own homes, using their own supplies, with the discretion to hire assistants to help them babysit as needed, for parents who have relinquished to the sitter the right to control how the children are cared for, what they will eat, when they go to bed, etc. This is dictated by common law, independently of the IRS threshold for withholding employment taxes. Second, this MB was looking for a sitter to use on a weekly basis. The meeting was a working interview, not a one-off sitting job. It's really no different from hiring a part time nanny. The only reason it was appropriate for the sitter to address her rate when she did was the fact that she was going to be working that day, not just interviewing.
Anonymous
Post 06/13/2013 00:32     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Nannies and MBs; pay should be discussed in first email MB sends with job and hours description, or first email nanny sends along with cover letter and resume. This way we know what you want and what you want to pay for it and you know our experience and what we are willing to do for X amount of dollars. If we put it all up front less time is wasted making a proper match.


I don't entirely agree with this. I once rejected a nanny candidate because she kept trying to negotiate the rate via text message before we'd even met her, using a tone that was waaay too informal and with no attempt to explain why she was worth more than what we posted. We told her in an initial phone call that we wouldn't be able to accommodate her request but that we could probably meet somewhere in the middle. She responded shortly after with a text saying "Hey, how about $__ [a rate that was $3 less than her initial request and within the range of what we would consider]. We told her that might work and suggested an interview. She said she didn't want to invest time in an interview unless we committed in advance to her requested rate. We hadn't even met her, let alone decided to make an offer at any compensation level. We found her entire approach so inappropriate for someone seeking employment that we told her we had decided to go in a different direction and left it at that.

In every other profession, it is understood that the person offering the job indicates a range for the position and then compensation is negotiated with individual candidates AFTER the initial interview. It is only then that an employer can begin to assess how much they are willing to pay to engage that person. So in OP's case, the mistake was trying to combine the initial interview with a regular work session. I understand you had exchanged emails prior to scheduling that session, but that's just not the same thing.


However, things are a little different when it comes to nannies vs. sitters. Nannies are expected to negotiate their rates after meeting the family, presenting herself, and learning about the position because they will be employees and there is a wide range of details and benefits to work out. A babysitter is an independent contractor who really should be upfront about her rate so parents can decide whether to use her services or not. I don't think the sitter in this case was acting manipulatively, I think she corrected her error in an appropriate timeframe, but it is a different standard than a nanny candidate is held to.
Anonymous
Post 06/12/2013 23:54     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
Anonymous wrote:Nannies and MBs; pay should be discussed in first email MB sends with job and hours description, or first email nanny sends along with cover letter and resume. This way we know what you want and what you want to pay for it and you know our experience and what we are willing to do for X amount of dollars. If we put it all up front less time is wasted making a proper match.


I don't entirely agree with this. I once rejected a nanny candidate because she kept trying to negotiate the rate via text message before we'd even met her, using a tone that was waaay too informal and with no attempt to explain why she was worth more than what we posted. We told her in an initial phone call that we wouldn't be able to accommodate her request but that we could probably meet somewhere in the middle. She responded shortly after with a text saying "Hey, how about $__ [a rate that was $3 less than her initial request and within the range of what we would consider]. We told her that might work and suggested an interview. She said she didn't want to invest time in an interview unless we committed in advance to her requested rate. We hadn't even met her, let alone decided to make an offer at any compensation level. We found her entire approach so inappropriate for someone seeking employment that we told her we had decided to go in a different direction and left it at that.

In every other profession, it is understood that the person offering the job indicates a range for the position and then compensation is negotiated with individual candidates AFTER the initial interview. It is only then that an employer can begin to assess how much they are willing to pay to engage that person. So in OP's case, the mistake was trying to combine the initial interview with a regular work session. I understand you had exchanged emails prior to scheduling that session, but that's just not the same thing.
Anonymous
Post 06/12/2013 20:35     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
Nannies and MBs; pay should be discussed in first email MB sends with job and hours description, or first email nanny sends along with cover letter and resume. This way we know what you want and what you want to pay for it and you know our experience and what we are willing to do for X amount of dollars. If we put it all up front less time is wasted making a proper match.
Anonymous
Post 06/12/2013 20:31     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You both dropped the ball, not just her. You also should have been prepared to negotiate, as most sitters will take the rate you list in the ad with a grain of salt. Also you said this was a working interview. She very well may feel that she hasn't accepted the job yet and is still free to negotiate. You can move on or not, but realize that your other options will also likely try to negotiate. She has just as much a right to set her rates as you do. It's just the way this industry works. You would presume to tell a plumber, chef or gardener how much they will work for would you?


Not exactly the same situation.


How is it not the same situation? They are all service people working for multiple clients on an ad hoc basis. An occasional sitter is no more your employee than any other service person you call to perform a service as needed. She sets her rates just as they would. She doesn't become an employee until you reach the pay threshold as defined by the IRS, which you likely wouldn't meet for your sitter.


This is not accurate. If a sitter is an employee vs. an independent contractor--and they almost always are--she is an employee from the time she earns her first dollar. She doesn't suddenly convert from independent contractor to an employee upon hitting the IRS threshold. The IRS threshold governs the employer's obligation to withhold taxes, not the employment status of the sitter.
Anonymous
Post 06/12/2013 20:11     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You both dropped the ball, not just her. You also should have been prepared to negotiate, as most sitters will take the rate you list in the ad with a grain of salt. Also you said this was a working interview. She very well may feel that she hasn't accepted the job yet and is still free to negotiate. You can move on or not, but realize that your other options will also likely try to negotiate. She has just as much a right to set her rates as you do. It's just the way this industry works. You would presume to tell a plumber, chef or gardener how much they will work for would you?


Not exactly the same situation.


Exactly the same situation. The only difference is that a plumber isn't going bring his rate or fee up. He'll perform the service and expect payment.



The MB here did not drop any balls. She is offering a job and stated the pay rate for that job in her ad. The sitter either overlooked it or treated it as a negotiable offer.

The plumber example is off base. Most plumbers work for homeowners as independent contractors. Independent contractors set their rates and advertise for customers. Babysitters--even occasional babysitters--who work out of the charges parents' home, using the parents' equipment and supplies, during hours set by the parents and subject to the parents' rules about how their children are to be cared for are, when they go to bed, etc. are, by law, employees rather than independent contractors. That is why the parents are required to withhold taxes and issue a W2 if the sitter gets paid more than $1800 per year or so by one family. Employees are simply not in a position to just perform a service and expect to get paid at whatever rate they dictate. They can negotiate pay, of course, but that is not quite the same thing.

In this case, I would respond by pointing out that there must have been a misunderstanding, because your ad clearly listed the rate for the position at __ per hour. If you are willing to consider a higher rate, you might say that you are prepared to discuss pay with her at the working interview, but that the rate listed in your ad is what you're willing to pay for her time during the initial meeting.

Anonymous
Post 06/12/2013 19:44     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
OP, did you say in your ad "non-negotiable"? Nanny rates typically are negotiable, FYI.
Anonymous
Post 06/12/2013 18:47     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
The fact that the sitter didn't pay attention to the stated pay rate in the ad would indicate that she lacks attention to detail. If she didn't know the pay rate and failed to ask what it was in the interview, It would indicate that she lacks professionalism or is inexperienced. Bottom line: keep looking.
Anonymous
Post 06/12/2013 17:22     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You both dropped the ball, not just her. You also should have been prepared to negotiate, as most sitters will take the rate you list in the ad with a grain of salt. Also you said this was a working interview. She very well may feel that she hasn't accepted the job yet and is still free to negotiate. You can move on or not, but realize that your other options will also likely try to negotiate. She has just as much a right to set her rates as you do. It's just the way this industry works. You would presume to tell a plumber, chef or gardener how much they will work for would you?


Not exactly the same situation.


How is it not the same situation? They are all service people working for multiple clients on an ad hoc basis. An occasional sitter is no more your employee than any other service person you call to perform a service as needed. She sets her rates just as they would. She doesn't become an employee until you reach the pay threshold as defined by the IRS, which you likely wouldn't meet for your sitter.


Yes but that's not what OP is talking about.. OP assumed the woman knew the pay range because OP put it in the AD. She then waited until after email exchanges, interviews, meeting the children for a test run, etc, to tell OP what her rate is. I admit both made a mistake by not bringing it up in the interviews but I still get OP's frustration. If OP were to contact a plumper, chef, gardener, etc she would most likely look around/ask how much they charge then decide to pass/accept instead of having the gardener/chef come over, interview, exchange emails, do a 'test run', only to find out that he/she charges more then her price range.
Anonymous
Post 06/12/2013 17:16     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You both dropped the ball, not just her. You also should have been prepared to negotiate, as most sitters will take the rate you list in the ad with a grain of salt. Also you said this was a working interview. She very well may feel that she hasn't accepted the job yet and is still free to negotiate. You can move on or not, but realize that your other options will also likely try to negotiate. She has just as much a right to set her rates as you do. It's just the way this industry works. You would presume to tell a plumber, chef or gardener how much they will work for would you?


Not exactly the same situation.


Exactly the same situation. The only difference is that a plumber isn't going bring his rate or fee up. He'll perform the service and expect payment.


NOT the PP but I also must say it isn't the same situation.
Anonymous
Post 06/12/2013 11:03     Subject: Re:MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
Anonymous wrote:
People saying this is manipulative are taking it too personally. It's called negotiating.


Its negotiating if the sitter had brought it up in previous emails before being selected and making arrangements. The MB put forward the offer and there was no reason why the sitter waited to try to negotiate afterwards. Its not as manipulative as waiting until she showed up but its still manipulative.


It's not like the sitter tried to explain her rate after working for OP and demanding cash in hand. She probably realized they had both dropped the ball in not discussing pay/negotiating a rate and figured better late than really late! I doubt it was manipulative at all.

OP, you don't owe her anything but nor does she owe you anything. If you don't want to pay her rate you can tell her what you are comfortable paying and she can decline or accept. If she declines, move on to someone new with your lesson learned.
Anonymous
Post 06/12/2013 10:58     Subject: Re:MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
People saying this is manipulative are taking it too personally. It's called negotiating.


Its negotiating if the sitter had brought it up in previous emails before being selected and making arrangements. The MB put forward the offer and there was no reason why the sitter waited to try to negotiate afterwards. Its not as manipulative as waiting until she showed up but its still manipulative.
Anonymous
Post 06/12/2013 10:51     Subject: MB's: wwyd about this pay issue?
The sitter was unprofessional, but MB wasn't any better. As a MB if someone responds to my ad, I always check their rates. I'm always surprised how many expensive nannies respond to my lower rate. You would think they wouldn't apply seeing my rate. For whatever reason, they do. So, before I agree to an interview I remind them of my pay rate. I don't want to bother interviewing anyone who charges more than I'll pay, so I don't bother. This was a lesson learned though. I dropped the ball one time and assumed an interviewee was okay with my rate because we didnt discuss it. She came over and tried a few hours with the kids. She accepted the pay and then texted me afterwards that she charges double what I paid her. Very awkward. I knew we hadn't discussed pay but that my ad showed my rate. Wasn't clear cut enough. MB, don't do again. I'd cut and run on the high priced nanny.