Anonymous wrote:https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/khashoggi-was-strangled-or-suffocated-body-dismembered-turkish-prosecutor-says-n926741

Khashoggi was strangled or suffocated immediately when entering the consulate and body dismembered, Turkish prosecutor says.

So much for interrogation gone wrong.

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/khashoggi-was-strangled-or-suffocated-body-dismembered-turkish-prosecutor-says-n926741

Khashoggi was strangled or suffocated immediately when entering the consulate and body dismembered, Turkish prosecutor says.

So much for interrogation gone wrong.

Anonymous wrote:
Do you know that the average bank account in the UAE is in the millions of dollars? Except for Oman, citizens in all these countries rely on varying very generous government handouts that have results from all these deals. As to elected leaders who dare to trod the line the West does not approve of--that's called foreign policy. All countries practice it? Last, democracy is fine--as long as you elect the right guy. Or woman. I'd say history has proven this, over and over.

Anonymous wrote:Kashoggi was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Lie down with dogs, get chopped up by fleas.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The article explains what republican Islam is. It's what the Muslim brotherhood tried to bring about in Egypt, and how Erdogan is transforming turkey today. You don't sound very well read into changes in "secular" Turkey over the past decade? Yes, the monarchism is oppressive as well. But it sure beats Iranian domination of the region, or maybe it doesn't? Would you like Iranian and russian control of the gulf and beyond?

I'm not going to debate republican Islam with someone who learns from newspapers so let's leave it alone.

Would I like Iranian and Russian control? It doesn't matter what I like! And it doesn't matter what you like, either.

On the other hand, maybe you think what YOU like ought to matter. Why don't you go up to an average Saudi or Bahraini and tell them, sorry boys, you can't vote, you can't be trusted to govern themselves, you have to keep living under Al-Saud and Al-Khalifa because I, an arrogant, ignorant American, have my own views on how things ought to be in your region. Who knows what you people will vote for! Can't have that, can we. Democracy is for other people, not you, and not when "Iranian domination" is looming, anyway! Why don't you do that. I'd love to watch.

As naive and hopeful as we are in the west, we've learned from Venezuela, Turkey and ww2 Germany that democracy does not always equal human right, freedom, progress. It also takes a set of values and visions, and very careful legal and constitutional codes enshrining them . When credible groups propose that, I'm sure they will gain much interest . If the change makers are simply Shias seeking to topple Sunnis, well then..

YOU might be naive and hopeful. The West, in total, has not. It was always eager to support dictatorships as long as they served its needs. It is also eager to come down on elected leaders who dare to trot the line the West does not approve of. The BS of "values and visions" is code for "democracy is fine as long as you elect the right guy."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The article explains what republican Islam is. It's what the Muslim brotherhood tried to bring about in Egypt, and how Erdogan is transforming turkey today. You don't sound very well read into changes in "secular" Turkey over the past decade? Yes, the monarchism is oppressive as well. But it sure beats Iranian domination of the region, or maybe it doesn't? Would you like Iranian and russian control of the gulf and beyond?

I'm not going to debate republican Islam with someone who learns from newspapers so let's leave it alone.

Would I like Iranian and Russian control? It doesn't matter what I like! And it doesn't matter what you like, either.

On the other hand, maybe you think what YOU like ought to matter. Why don't you go up to an average Saudi or Bahraini and tell them, sorry boys, you can't vote, you can't be trusted to govern themselves, you have to keep living under Al-Saud and Al-Khalifa because I, an arrogant, ignorant American, have my own views on how things ought to be in your region. Who knows what you people will vote for! Can't have that, can we. Democracy is for other people, not you, and not when "Iranian domination" is looming, anyway! Why don't you do that. I'd love to watch.

As naive and hopeful as we are in the west, we've learned from Venezuela, Turkey and ww2 Germany that democracy does not always equal human right, freedom, progress. It also takes a set of values and visions, and very careful legal and constitutional codes enshrining them . When credible groups propose that, I'm sure they will gain much interest . If the change makers are simply Shias seeking to topple Sunnis, well then..

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The article explains what republican Islam is. It's what the Muslim brotherhood tried to bring about in Egypt, and how Erdogan is transforming turkey today. You don't sound very well read into changes in "secular" Turkey over the past decade? Yes, the monarchism is oppressive as well. But it sure beats Iranian domination of the region, or maybe it doesn't? Would you like Iranian and russian control of the gulf and beyond?

I'm not going to debate republican Islam with someone who learns from newspapers so let's leave it alone.

Would I like Iranian and Russian control? It doesn't matter what I like! And it doesn't matter what you like, either.

On the other hand, maybe you think what YOU like ought to matter. Why don't you go up to an average Saudi or Bahraini and tell them, sorry boys, you can't vote, you can't be trusted to govern themselves, you have to keep living under Al-Saud and Al-Khalifa because I, an arrogant, ignorant American, have my own views on how things ought to be in your region. Who knows what you people will vote for! Can't have that, can we. Democracy is for other people, not you, and not when "Iranian domination" is looming, anyway! Why don't you do that. I'd love to watch.

Anonymous wrote:Kashoggi was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Lie down with dogs, get chopped up by fleas.

Anonymous wrote:
The article explains what republican Islam is. It's what the Muslim brotherhood tried to bring about in Egypt, and how Erdogan is transforming turkey today. You don't sound very well read into changes in "secular" Turkey over the past decade? Yes, the monarchism is oppressive as well. But it sure beats Iranian domination of the region, or maybe it doesn't? Would you like Iranian and russian control of the gulf and beyond?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The opinion piece, which seemed reasoned and informative, drew a position on his stance favouring "republican Islam" from his words and history of action. Did you read the article? I do not think monarchical Islam is aligned with American values though it is with some of our regional interests (for now). That's part of what makes our foreign policy in the middle East and gulf fraught and difficult. We are truly caught between a rock and a hard place - but kashoggi didn't offer some 3rd, alternative. He was very much part and product of the republican Islamic stance according to this piece - ie, the Turkish model of government under Erdogan that has also rolled back many freedoms and gains . Why do you think he was in Turkey, just from curiousity?

First, exactly what "republican Islam" is, no one knows. Each country invents that anew.

Turkey does not have the republican Islam form of government; it is very staunchly secular. If it was even remotely Islamic, Mr Khashoggi would have never had to go into the Saudi consulate - he could have married his lady love officially (not just in a mosque like he did) right then and there without having to prove he's single (again!). As it is, the secular Turkey bans plural marriage and that is why he had to get proof of divorce.

Why was he in Turkey? His girlfriend is Turkish, the wedding was supposed to be in Turkey, his family is from Turkey. That's why.

"We are truly caught between a rock and a hard place"?? What? YOU are not caught between anything. How other countries choose to govern themselves isn't up to you. You know who is caught between a rock and a hard place? The people of KSA, Bahrain, Kuwait and UAE who want to vote and govern themselves - but can't, because the families that rule their countries suppress them with AMERICAN WEAPONS AND AMERICAN SUPPORT! Can't have these stupid Arabs vote and choose for themselves, can we. Who knows whom they will vote for. Much better we support Al-Saud and Al-Khalifa because they do what we want. Who cares about the people.