Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So yes to answer your question in a nutshell, the most famous philosopher of Christian History says that objective morality exists within the very construction of the universe and does not require aGod to speak in order to convey it

Let's assume you're correct. Then we've established that there is a God, who injected objective morality into the universe, and humans can thus discover it. Fine. But how does that tell you that the Koran is the word of God? Or the Bible? And whether Jezus existed and was a savior or just a random guy?

My point is, just having an abstract "God" is not sufficient to prove anything.

It's a start. You begin with an Unmoved Mover, an Absolute Authority, and move on from there.

How is this a start? It is a theoretical, abstract God -- very different than the God usually described in the Bible for example (a God with a son, a God that communicates with mankind)... none of that appears if you "move on from there".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
For me, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how there can be an absolute standard for human behavior without God.

Well, maybe there is no absolute standard for human behavior.

Do you truly believe that? Do you know the enormity of what you are saying? "Without God, everything is permissible.". In order to be able to do whatever you feel like, without an ultimate Authority to answer to, you are willing to extend the same courtesy to any other human being? Sandusky, perhaps?

Do you really believe that? If hypothetically I could prove to you that there is no "God" then you would think it's perfectly fine to kill someone? I find that mindboggling.

Of course, I also find it mindboggling when people want to impose rules on me FOR NO OTHER REASON than "God" says so-- whether those are rules about women riding in the back of the bus, or about not using condoms, or whatever.

Are you really incapable of independent moral reasoning?

Heaven grant me patience.

It is not that some human beings need to be afraid of the Big Bad God in order to do what is right, while other stronger, smarter people can figure things out on their own. It is that the very idea of right and wrong itself leads to an acknowledgement of an authority greater than any human being, or group of human beings. Without an Absolute Authority, nothing is ACTUALLY wrong.

"Independent" moral reasoning--that is, independent of any absolute standard--can justify any crime against humanity. So there are no crimes against humanity without absolute standards for human behavior. Those absolute standards are found in natural law, which is authored by God.

If there is no God, no ultimate authority, then it does not matter if I think it is perfectly fine to kill someone, or if I am conflicted about it, or what you feel about my feelings. Because we are all just worm food. There is just existence and non-existence, not right and wrong.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So yes to answer your question in a nutshell, the most famous philosopher of Christian History says that objective morality exists within the very construction of the universe and does not require aGod to speak in order to convey it

Let's assume you're correct. Then we've established that there is a God, who injected objective morality into the universe, and humans can thus discover it. Fine. But how does that tell you that the Koran is the word of God? Or the Bible? And whether Jezus existed and was a savior or just a random guy?

My point is, just having an abstract "God" is not sufficient to prove anything.

It's a start. You begin with an Unmoved Mover, an Absolute Authority, and move on from there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
For me, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how there can be an absolute standard for human behavior without God.

Well, maybe there is no absolute standard for human behavior.

Do you truly believe that? Do you know the enormity of what you are saying? "Without God, everything is permissible.". In order to be able to do whatever you feel like, without an ultimate Authority to answer to, you are willing to extend the same courtesy to any other human being? Sandusky, perhaps?

Do you really believe that? If hypothetically I could prove to you that there is no "God" then you would think it's perfectly fine to kill someone? I find that mindboggling.

Of course, I also find it mindboggling when people want to impose rules on me FOR NO OTHER REASON than "God" says so-- whether those are rules about women riding in the back of the bus, or about not using condoms, or whatever.

Are you really incapable of independent moral reasoning?

Some people are not capable of much more than following orders. They need to be told that killing is wrong because it would not otherwise occur to them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
For me, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how there can be an absolute standard for human behavior without God.

Well, maybe there is no absolute standard for human behavior.

Do you truly believe that? Do you know the enormity of what you are saying? "Without God, everything is permissible.". In order to be able to do whatever you feel like, without an ultimate Authority to answer to, you are willing to extend the same courtesy to any other human being? Sandusky, perhaps?

Do you really believe that? If hypothetically I could prove to you that there is no "God" then you would think it's perfectly fine to kill someone? I find that mindboggling.

Of course, I also find it mindboggling when people want to impose rules on me FOR NO OTHER REASON than "God" says so-- whether those are rules about women riding in the back of the bus, or about not using condoms, or whatever.

Are you really incapable of independent moral reasoning?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
For me, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how there can be an absolute standard for human behavior without God.

Well, maybe there is no absolute standard for human behavior.

Do you truly believe that? Do you know the enormity of what you are saying? "Without God, everything is permissible.". In order to be able to do whatever you feel like, without an ultimate Authority to answer to, you are willing to extend the same courtesy to any other human being? Sandusky, perhaps?

Eh, earlier you defined "God" as "absolute standard of right and wrong".

So, by this definition you are right. But again, even if there is a God, even if there is a "absolute standard of right and wrong", how does that prove anything? How does it prove that the Koran is right? Or the Bible? Or neither? Or that Jezus died for our sins? Or didn't?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So yes to answer your question in a nutshell, the most famous philosopher of Christian History says that objective morality exists within the very construction of the universe and does not require aGod to speak in order to convey it

Let's assume you're correct. Then we've established that there is a God, who injected objective morality into the universe, and humans can thus discover it. Fine. But how does that tell you that the Koran is the word of God? Or the Bible? And whether Jezus existed and was a savior or just a random guy?

My point is, just having an abstract "God" is not sufficient to prove anything.

I think you miss my point entirely. I'm not establishing that there is a God. My point is that Aquinas believed that natural law could be derived using reason alone. So an atheist can read the same universe to determine the same objective law. Aquinas believed that universe was created by God, but his formulation of natural law does not depend upon it.

Therefore, acceptance of the concept of natural law does not require acceptance of the notion of God. And that's how objective morality can exist without the idea of God.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
For me, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how there can be an absolute standard for human behavior without God.

Well, maybe there is no absolute standard for human behavior.

Do you truly believe that? Do you know the enormity of what you are saying? "Without God, everything is permissible.". In order to be able to do whatever you feel like, without an ultimate Authority to answer to, you are willing to extend the same courtesy to any other human being? Sandusky, perhaps?

Anonymous wrote:Oh, I see. The book doesn't mean anything. Morality comes from the universe? Is there any way to decipher what is human nature, moral codes of an evolving people and what is being magically given to us by a deity? I thought that's what the book was for.... it seems as though we are going in circles and no one has answered my question.

And, didn't Thomas Aquinas get his info from THE BIBLE?

Sigh.

No. He did not derive his info from the bible. He was a believer, a Christian, and he read the Bible. But the reason for his historical greatness is his formulation of the concept of natural law ie that discovery of law is possible by reason, which is a bedrock of our political philosophy (ie, Locke and our Democratic tradition) and is referenced as a source of truth in practically every Catholic encyclical worth its salt.

If you really care, put a little bit of effort into this. If you are just going to post comments like the above or another "I'm still waiting", then just admit that you are not really interested in the answer to the question of whether it is possible to have an objective morality outside of God. You aren't trying.

Anonymous wrote:Is just not my thing, and it really isn't any more complicated then that. There have been times I've felt something is missing in my life and I considered looking into a church, but it was really just to find a community not a faith. I've filled those voids with Pilates, volunteering, and just being a more active community member.

You could have filled that emptiness with drugs, alcohol, and random hook-ups.

Or lying, cheating, and stealing.

Or world domination, sex trafficking, and torturing puppies.

It would all be the same...

Without an absolute standard for human behavior.

As in, God.

So you get to do whatever floats your boat.

The price? So does everyone else.

I'm glad you prefer pilates and community service. Unfortunately, you have no way to make those preferences universal...with Him.

Anonymous wrote:Is just not my thing, and it really isn't any more complicated then that. There have been times I've felt something is missing in my life and I considered looking into a church, but it was really just to find a community not a faith. I've filled those voids with Pilates, volunteering, and just being a more active community member.

Don't you mean you filled the void with "Pontius Pilates?"

Is just not my thing, and it really isn't any more complicated then that. There have been times I've felt something is missing in my life and I considered looking into a church, but it was really just to find a community not a faith. I've filled those voids with Pilates, volunteering, and just being a more active community member.

Anonymous wrote:So yes to answer your question in a nutshell, the most famous philosopher of Christian History says that objective morality exists within the very construction of the universe and does not require aGod to speak in order to convey it

Let's assume you're correct. Then we've established that there is a God, who injected objective morality into the universe, and humans can thus discover it. Fine. But how does that tell you that the Koran is the word of God? Or the Bible? And whether Jezus existed and was a savior or just a random guy?

My point is, just having an abstract "God" is not sufficient to prove anything.

Anonymous wrote:Oh, I see. The book doesn't mean anything. Morality comes from the universe? Is there any way to decipher what is human nature, moral codes of an evolving people and what is being magically given to us by a deity? I thought that's what the book was for.... it seems as though we are going in circles and no one has answered my question.

And, didn't Thomas Aquinas get his info from THE BIBLE?

The book doesn't mean anything.

It's a collection of stories and poetry. Some of it is beautiful. A lot of it is boring. Some of it is appalling -- cruel and immoral. If you ask me to believe in God because the Bible says so (or the Koran or the Torah), it's easy to say "No way!"

Oh, I see. The book doesn't mean anything. Morality comes from the universe? Is there any way to decipher what is human nature, moral codes of an evolving people and what is being magically given to us by a deity? I thought that's what the book was for.... it seems as though we are going in circles and no one has answered my question.

And, didn't Thomas Aquinas get his info from THE BIBLE?