Anonymous
08/25/2021 18:43
Subject: Finding safeties
It should be obvious that the fact a school turns down a lot of applicants does not make it a safety.
Some schools, Tulane included, are heading toward filling their classes before the RD round. That needs to be considered as well in evaluating a safety, because, even if you apply EA, you may have a timeline that makes it problematic. Looking at Tulane's numbers, the acceptance for RD appears to be below 5%.
Again, that does not mean it is substantially more selective, it just means it drives you towards ED, which means it is hard to make it a safety.
Some schools, Tulane included, are heading toward filling their classes before the RD round. That needs to be considered as well in evaluating a safety, because, even if you apply EA, you may have a timeline that makes it problematic. Looking at Tulane's numbers, the acceptance for RD appears to be below 5%.
Again, that does not mean it is substantially more selective, it just means it drives you towards ED, which means it is hard to make it a safety.
Anonymous
08/25/2021 17:40
Subject: Re:Finding safeties
+Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:+3 I think there is some confusion about what a safety school is, especially in the current time.
A safety school is one that you are extremely likely to be admitted - like at least 70% and for some up to 99% (there is no 100 of course).
That is partially a measure of your credentials compared to typical admits, but also a measure of the school's process - which of course is never fully known.
Just an example, Miami of Ohio received 26,844 applications (from 2020-2021 common data set). They admitted 24,684, over 90%.
So we know they are not highly selective, and we likely know that if your credentials compare favorably to their typical applicant, you are highly likely to be admitted. They also have a low ultimate yield, because they had 3800 enrollments from that 24,684 admitted number.
That is a safety school for a lot of people.
Tulane at 9% or even 15% admittance rate is not a typical safety. It may be for very high achieving students, but for most it is not a guaranteed admittance.
Plus, keep in mind that an AO can also sniff out if they think a student is serious about attending, right? What if they perceive your non-early RD application as over-qualified and might reject to protect their yield? So even on the highest end you are not guaranteed anything.
Tulane has been perhaps the most aggressive school out there at drumming up applications so they can lower their acceptance rate. They send postcards to people with a pulse.
My kid with a 2.8 and 22 ACT has been getting inundated with stuff from Tulane.
Anonymous
08/25/2021 17:11
Subject: Re:Finding safeties
Anonymous wrote:+3 I think there is some confusion about what a safety school is, especially in the current time.
A safety school is one that you are extremely likely to be admitted - like at least 70% and for some up to 99% (there is no 100 of course).
That is partially a measure of your credentials compared to typical admits, but also a measure of the school's process - which of course is never fully known.
Just an example, Miami of Ohio received 26,844 applications (from 2020-2021 common data set). They admitted 24,684, over 90%.
So we know they are not highly selective, and we likely know that if your credentials compare favorably to their typical applicant, you are highly likely to be admitted. They also have a low ultimate yield, because they had 3800 enrollments from that 24,684 admitted number.
That is a safety school for a lot of people.
Tulane at 9% or even 15% admittance rate is not a typical safety. It may be for very high achieving students, but for most it is not a guaranteed admittance.
Plus, keep in mind that an AO can also sniff out if they think a student is serious about attending, right? What if they perceive your non-early RD application as over-qualified and might reject to protect their yield? So even on the highest end you are not guaranteed anything.
Tulane has been perhaps the most aggressive school out there at drumming up applications so they can lower their acceptance rate. They send postcards to people with a pulse.
Anonymous
08/25/2021 17:03
Subject: Re:Finding safeties
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:These gender-disparate application specifics are not unique to W&M. My older child applied to an Ivy a couple of years ago and the admissions and acceptance rates were wildly different by gender. Pretty much true everywhere.
I don't believe for a minute that this is true. It's easy enough to verify, though. Identify the Ivy and provide a link to the numbers.
Yes, many colleges have more women applying than men. But few have W&M's disparity, and most respond simply by accepting more women.
Quite a few are similar. 42% of UNC applicants last year were male and 39% or enrolled students were male. 39% of W&M applicants last year were male and 39% of enrolled students were male.
UVA first years in Arts and Sciences in Fall 2020 were 39% male. W&M has similar majors to UVA Arts and Sciences.
Engineering schools tend to be heavily male. UVA first year engineering last year was 66% male. UNC does not have engineering.
You’re looking at the wrong data. The question isn’t the percentage of enrolled male students compared to applicants. It’s the percentage of admitted male students compared to applicants. That’s where W&M is the outlier.
It’s called Math 101.
If you look at it on a percentage basis (Math 101) even for acceptance rate only, it isn't that clear. W&M's acceptance rate for men is 1.16X higher than that of females. Brown's is 1.41X higher. Yale's is 1.22X higher. Emory's is 1.19X higher. Vanderbilt's is 1.15X higher.
And many schools now have significantly higher percentages of applicants and enrollment from female students.
I don't know whether your math actually makes sense, but even if it does it's not relevant. W&M is a public school. All of the others you have listed are private. Private schools can do whatever they want. Public schools cannot.
Law 101
You don't know law either. If they receive federal funding, and almost all "private" schools do, Federal laws will apply.
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any educational program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.
-Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972
Tell that to Wellesley, Smith, Bryn Mawr, Morehouse, Wabash, etc. "Title IX's prohibition on discrimination in admissions applies only to . . . public institutions of undergraduate higher education . . . [and] does not apply to private undergraduate colleges."
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/t9-rel-exempt/index.html#:~:text=The%20prohibition%20on%20discrimination%20in,receives%20any%20Federal%20financial%20assistance.
So, yea, I kinda do know law.
Not really. Or you just don't understand federal funding.
The poster was right that there is an Title IX exception for undergraduate admissions, but everything else about Title IX applies to private schools. That exception was the result in elite private school lobbying back in the early 1970s. They were worried that their graduate giving would dry up. It really is an anachronism given how much federal money these schools may actually receive.
An example of unfair good ole boy lobbying.
Anonymous
08/25/2021 17:01
Subject: Re:Finding safeties
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:These gender-disparate application specifics are not unique to W&M. My older child applied to an Ivy a couple of years ago and the admissions and acceptance rates were wildly different by gender. Pretty much true everywhere.
I don't believe for a minute that this is true. It's easy enough to verify, though. Identify the Ivy and provide a link to the numbers.
Yes, many colleges have more women applying than men. But few have W&M's disparity, and most respond simply by accepting more women.
Quite a few are similar. 42% of UNC applicants last year were male and 39% or enrolled students were male. 39% of W&M applicants last year were male and 39% of enrolled students were male.
UVA first years in Arts and Sciences in Fall 2020 were 39% male. W&M has similar majors to UVA Arts and Sciences.
Engineering schools tend to be heavily male. UVA first year engineering last year was 66% male. UNC does not have engineering.
You’re looking at the wrong data. The question isn’t the percentage of enrolled male students compared to applicants. It’s the percentage of admitted male students compared to applicants. That’s where W&M is the outlier.
It’s called Math 101.
If you look at it on a percentage basis (Math 101) even for acceptance rate only, it isn't that clear. W&M's acceptance rate for men is 1.16X higher than that of females. Brown's is 1.41X higher. Yale's is 1.22X higher. Emory's is 1.19X higher. Vanderbilt's is 1.15X higher.
And many schools now have significantly higher percentages of applicants and enrollment from female students.
I don't know whether your math actually makes sense, but even if it does it's not relevant. W&M is a public school. All of the others you have listed are private. Private schools can do whatever they want. Public schools cannot.
Law 101
You don't know law either. If they receive federal funding, and almost all "private" schools do, Federal laws will apply.
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any educational program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.
-Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972
Tell that to Wellesley, Smith, Bryn Mawr, Morehouse, Wabash, etc. "Title IX's prohibition on discrimination in admissions applies only to . . . public institutions of undergraduate higher education . . . [and] does not apply to private undergraduate colleges."
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/t9-rel-exempt/index.html#:~:text=The%20prohibition%20on%20discrimination%20in,receives%20any%20Federal%20financial%20assistance.
So, yea, I kinda do know law.
Not really. Or you just don't understand federal funding.
The poster was right that there is an Title IX exception for undergraduate admissions, but everything else about Title IX applies to private schools. That exception was the result in elite private school lobbying back in the early 1970s. They were worried that their graduate giving would dry up. It really is an anachronism given how much federal money these schools may actually receive.
Anonymous
08/25/2021 16:57
Subject: Finding safeties
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Thanks for the feedback! He actually really likes William and Mary so is open to midsize schools and will apply to UVA and UMD as well.
He'll get into W&M because he's a guy, and he'll get into UMD because it's an easy admit. But he won't get into UVA.
He is a legacy.
So? The best he gets is thrown in with the uber competitive in state pool. Hardly a guarantee.
True. Many of my friends who went to UVA were bitterly disappointed when their kids didn't get in. A lot has changed.
Anonymous
08/25/2021 13:07
Subject: Finding safeties
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What is he looking for in a school?
Intellectually challenging but not a stress culture, small to medium size with plenty of small and discussion based classes taught by profs and not TAs. Strong sense of community. Nice campus/setting.
Southwestern University in Georgetown Texas. No snow. Good small LAC.
Anonymous
08/25/2021 13:07
Subject: Re:Finding safeties
Just one opinion, but here is a basic process to consider:
1. Start with the things about a school that cannot be changed - size, location, weather, course of study. If you know you want northeast and no midwest, that helps narrow the list. If your student wants a finance program (and not economics), that narrows the list of some liberal arts colleges for example. If you do not want snow, etc. These are all items that cannot be changed about the university.
2. Once you have a narrower list, consider the common data sets for each university. They are all publicly available and give an idea of the benchmarks for admission - gpa, tests, what items are important or not for admission, such as essays or work experience. They also give you what % of applicants are admitted then choose to enroll - a decent proxy for competitiveness.
These two steps should help with a shorter list. You can also read reviews - I think Niche is pretty good as is Unigo - in moderation. Remember that an unhappy student/person is far more likely to review than the group of positive people, just like a bad restaurant.
Eventually you will want to see some of these campuses if possible - especially if not cost prohibitive - and with students on campus.
Again just one perspective, good luck!
1. Start with the things about a school that cannot be changed - size, location, weather, course of study. If you know you want northeast and no midwest, that helps narrow the list. If your student wants a finance program (and not economics), that narrows the list of some liberal arts colleges for example. If you do not want snow, etc. These are all items that cannot be changed about the university.
2. Once you have a narrower list, consider the common data sets for each university. They are all publicly available and give an idea of the benchmarks for admission - gpa, tests, what items are important or not for admission, such as essays or work experience. They also give you what % of applicants are admitted then choose to enroll - a decent proxy for competitiveness.
These two steps should help with a shorter list. You can also read reviews - I think Niche is pretty good as is Unigo - in moderation. Remember that an unhappy student/person is far more likely to review than the group of positive people, just like a bad restaurant.
Eventually you will want to see some of these campuses if possible - especially if not cost prohibitive - and with students on campus.
Again just one perspective, good luck!
Anonymous
08/25/2021 12:02
Subject: Re:Finding safeties
Anonymous wrote:+3 I think there is some confusion about what a safety school is, especially in the current time.
A safety school is one that you are extremely likely to be admitted - like at least 70% and for some up to 99% (there is no 100 of course).
That is partially a measure of your credentials compared to typical admits, but also a measure of the school's process - which of course is never fully known.
Just an example, Miami of Ohio received 26,844 applications (from 2020-2021 common data set). They admitted 24,684, over 90%.
So we know they are not highly selective, and we likely know that if your credentials compare favorably to their typical applicant, you are highly likely to be admitted. They also have a low ultimate yield, because they had 3800 enrollments from that 24,684 admitted number.
That is a safety school for a lot of people.
Tulane at 9% or even 15% admittance rate is not a typical safety. It may be for very high achieving students, but for most it is not a guaranteed admittance.
Plus, keep in mind that an AO can also sniff out if they think a student is serious about attending, right? What if they perceive your non-early RD application as over-qualified and might reject to protect their yield? So even on the highest end you are not guaranteed anything.
TY for this sane post. Had no idea about Miami of Ohio - assumed more selective.
I think my DC is struggling with coming up with a list ranging from reaches to likelies/safeties, especially on the latter end. DC might be happy at the safeties (as the goal is to pick schools which a student can see attending) if that's how admissions shake out but yet will these schools even consider DC's app because of their own concerns about yield protect?
Love if anyone has tips. Heard just enough stories last year of kids getting shut out in all three categories and scrambling to find another school come spring. Would love to avoid that if possible.
Anonymous
08/25/2021 10:50
Subject: Re:Finding safeties
+3 I think there is some confusion about what a safety school is, especially in the current time.
A safety school is one that you are extremely likely to be admitted - like at least 70% and for some up to 99% (there is no 100 of course).
That is partially a measure of your credentials compared to typical admits, but also a measure of the school's process - which of course is never fully known.
Just an example, Miami of Ohio received 26,844 applications (from 2020-2021 common data set). They admitted 24,684, over 90%.
So we know they are not highly selective, and we likely know that if your credentials compare favorably to their typical applicant, you are highly likely to be admitted. They also have a low ultimate yield, because they had 3800 enrollments from that 24,684 admitted number.
That is a safety school for a lot of people.
Tulane at 9% or even 15% admittance rate is not a typical safety. It may be for very high achieving students, but for most it is not a guaranteed admittance.
Plus, keep in mind that an AO can also sniff out if they think a student is serious about attending, right? What if they perceive your non-early RD application as over-qualified and might reject to protect their yield? So even on the highest end you are not guaranteed anything.
A safety school is one that you are extremely likely to be admitted - like at least 70% and for some up to 99% (there is no 100 of course).
That is partially a measure of your credentials compared to typical admits, but also a measure of the school's process - which of course is never fully known.
Just an example, Miami of Ohio received 26,844 applications (from 2020-2021 common data set). They admitted 24,684, over 90%.
So we know they are not highly selective, and we likely know that if your credentials compare favorably to their typical applicant, you are highly likely to be admitted. They also have a low ultimate yield, because they had 3800 enrollments from that 24,684 admitted number.
That is a safety school for a lot of people.
Tulane at 9% or even 15% admittance rate is not a typical safety. It may be for very high achieving students, but for most it is not a guaranteed admittance.
Plus, keep in mind that an AO can also sniff out if they think a student is serious about attending, right? What if they perceive your non-early RD application as over-qualified and might reject to protect their yield? So even on the highest end you are not guaranteed anything.
Anonymous
08/25/2021 10:11
Subject: Finding safeties
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:St Olaf is a fantastic school. Kids mostly stay indoors in the winter. Also consider Grinnell, Emory, Pitt, Ithaca, and Tulane.
He has some of those on his list but they aren’t safeties.
Pitt is a safety for many kids. Ithaca might be.
Pitt is under 50% acceptance. No longer a safety. And Emory? One of the most competitive schools in the country.
I think they meant Emory and Henry College. not the one in Atlanta.
+2 Also, Tulane is not a safety. 9% admit rate. Some people are living in the 1980s
Anonymous
08/25/2021 08:59
Subject: Re:Finding safeties
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:These gender-disparate application specifics are not unique to W&M. My older child applied to an Ivy a couple of years ago and the admissions and acceptance rates were wildly different by gender. Pretty much true everywhere.
I don't believe for a minute that this is true. It's easy enough to verify, though. Identify the Ivy and provide a link to the numbers.
Yes, many colleges have more women applying than men. But few have W&M's disparity, and most respond simply by accepting more women.
Quite a few are similar. 42% of UNC applicants last year were male and 39% or enrolled students were male. 39% of W&M applicants last year were male and 39% of enrolled students were male.
UVA first years in Arts and Sciences in Fall 2020 were 39% male. W&M has similar majors to UVA Arts and Sciences.
Engineering schools tend to be heavily male. UVA first year engineering last year was 66% male. UNC does not have engineering.
You’re looking at the wrong data. The question isn’t the percentage of enrolled male students compared to applicants. It’s the percentage of admitted male students compared to applicants. That’s where W&M is the outlier.
It’s called Math 101.
If you look at it on a percentage basis (Math 101) even for acceptance rate only, it isn't that clear. W&M's acceptance rate for men is 1.16X higher than that of females. Brown's is 1.41X higher. Yale's is 1.22X higher. Emory's is 1.19X higher. Vanderbilt's is 1.15X higher.
And many schools now have significantly higher percentages of applicants and enrollment from female students.
I don't know whether your math actually makes sense, but even if it does it's not relevant. W&M is a public school. All of the others you have listed are private. Private schools can do whatever they want. Public schools cannot.
Law 101
You don't know law either. If they receive federal funding, and almost all "private" schools do, Federal laws will apply.
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any educational program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.
-Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972
Tell that to Wellesley, Smith, Bryn Mawr, Morehouse, Wabash, etc. "Title IX's prohibition on discrimination in admissions applies only to . . . public institutions of undergraduate higher education . . . [and] does not apply to private undergraduate colleges."
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/t9-rel-exempt/index.html#:~:text=The%20prohibition%20on%20discrimination%20in,receives%20any%20Federal%20financial%20assistance.
So, yea, I kinda do know law.
Not really. Or you just don't understand federal funding.
Anonymous
08/24/2021 19:11
Subject: Finding safeties
Anonymous wrote:DS in FCPS has a 4.3 and 1520. No hooks. Could we actually consider W&M a match (safety?!)?
Match and pretty likely, but not safety. Especially if RD and not ED.
Anonymous
08/24/2021 18:02
Subject: Finding safeties
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:St Olaf is a fantastic school. Kids mostly stay indoors in the winter. Also consider Grinnell, Emory, Pitt, Ithaca, and Tulane.
He has some of those on his list but they aren’t safeties.
Pitt is a safety for many kids. Ithaca might be.
Pitt is under 50% acceptance. No longer a safety. And Emory? One of the most competitive schools in the country.
I think they meant Emory and Henry College. not the one in Atlanta.
Anonymous
08/06/2021 08:05
Subject: Re:Finding safeties
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:These gender-disparate application specifics are not unique to W&M. My older child applied to an Ivy a couple of years ago and the admissions and acceptance rates were wildly different by gender. Pretty much true everywhere.
I don't believe for a minute that this is true. It's easy enough to verify, though. Identify the Ivy and provide a link to the numbers.
Yes, many colleges have more women applying than men. But few have W&M's disparity, and most respond simply by accepting more women.
Quite a few are similar. 42% of UNC applicants last year were male and 39% or enrolled students were male. 39% of W&M applicants last year were male and 39% of enrolled students were male.
UVA first years in Arts and Sciences in Fall 2020 were 39% male. W&M has similar majors to UVA Arts and Sciences.
Engineering schools tend to be heavily male. UVA first year engineering last year was 66% male. UNC does not have engineering.
You’re looking at the wrong data. The question isn’t the percentage of enrolled male students compared to applicants. It’s the percentage of admitted male students compared to applicants. That’s where W&M is the outlier.
It’s called Math 101.
If you look at it on a percentage basis (Math 101) even for acceptance rate only, it isn't that clear. W&M's acceptance rate for men is 1.16X higher than that of females. Brown's is 1.41X higher. Yale's is 1.22X higher. Emory's is 1.19X higher. Vanderbilt's is 1.15X higher.
And many schools now have significantly higher percentages of applicants and enrollment from female students.
I don't know whether your math actually makes sense, but even if it does it's not relevant. W&M is a public school. All of the others you have listed are private. Private schools can do whatever they want. Public schools cannot.
Law 101
You don't know law either. If they receive federal funding, and almost all "private" schools do, Federal laws will apply.
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any educational program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.
-Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972
Tell that to Wellesley, Smith, Bryn Mawr, Morehouse, Wabash, etc. "Title IX's prohibition on discrimination in admissions applies only to . . . public institutions of undergraduate higher education . . . [and] does not apply to private undergraduate colleges."
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/t9-rel-exempt/index.html#:~:text=The%20prohibition%20on%20discrimination%20in,receives%20any%20Federal%20financial%20assistance.
So, yea, I kinda do know law.