jsteele
Post 07/27/2021 20:05     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Anonymous wrote:I'm not "anti WTU," Jeff. I'm pro-keeping-schools-open. Nothing you cited demonstrates that unions are in favor of mandatory vaccination. Randi Weingarten is the AFT (American Federation of Teacher's Union) president -- she was obviously talking about teachers, in the overall context of public employee vaccination requirements. And claiming that "mandatory vaccination should be subject to negotiation" while at the same time saying that mandatory vaccination will lead to a parade of horribles (nurses quitting) is obviously being against mandatory vaccination. AFT opposes mandatory vaccination and that's what the statement you cited means.


I am sorry but your opposition to the WTU has resulted in either you refusing to understand clear language or prevented you from doing so. Either way, the plain text is right before your eyes. The ATF believes that vaccinations "should be a mandatory subject of negotiation..". I'm not sure how more clearly they could say this. The ATF does believe that mandated vaccinations that are not negotiated could be problematic. As I said in the other thread, it is likely that union members are concerned about how medical data would be used and potentially made public. In addition, the union is likely concerned about the fate of those members who can't or won't be vaccinated. Those concerns are not with a mandate itself, but more implementation details. At any rate, with if more than 90 percent of teachers and staff are already vaccinated, a mandate loses much of its significance.
Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 19:56     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Ok well here we have it. The AFT (the national union organization of which WTU is a local chapter) is against mandatory vaccination.

"“In order for everyone to feel safe and welcome in their workplaces, vaccinations must be negotiated between employers and workers, not coerced,” Randi Weingarten, the president of the American Federation of Teachers, said in a statement."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/26/mandatory-vaccinations-urged-health-workers/

I'm not sure if WTU would ever go against their national, but seems unlikely. I supposed there's wiggle room to claim that all they want is to "bargain" over mandatory vaccination, but I can't really see the distinction between bargaining over it and opposing it. If a union member would like to come here and explain, I'm all ears.


As if often the case here, an anti-WTU poster has taken a single sentence from a longer statement (admittedly the single sentence quoted by the Post) and spun it in the most anti-WTU light possible. I think the it is worth reading the entire Weingarten statement which is quite short:

“More than 90 percent of the AFT’s educators and school staff, and nearly 80 percent of our healthcare professionals, are vaccinated against COVID-19, and those numbers are only increasing. The COVID-19 vaccine is the most important tool we have to protect ourselves; our families; and the students, patients and communities we serve. As the delta variant spreads and COVID-19 cases rise in unvaccinated communities, we are reminded just how unpredictable this virus is and how critical vaccinations are to keeping our schools open for in-person learning and preventing our hospitals from becoming overwhelmed. With ICUs once again filling up and many reaching capacity, our nurses and healthcare professionals in particular are exhausted and anxious at the prospect of another COVID-19 surge.

“In order for everyone to feel safe and welcome in their workplaces, vaccinations must be negotiated between employers and workers, not coerced. We believe strongly that everyone should get vaccinated unless they have a medical or religious exception, and that this should be a mandatory subject of negotiation for employers to keep their employees safe and build trust. But healthcare professionals are concerned that mandating vaccines outside contract negotiation will only result in more people leaving the bedside at a time when staffing levels are already low from the trauma of the past year. This makes vaccine advocacy more important than ever, and medical professionals must be on the front lines of correcting the rampant vaccine disinformation campaign that is costing American lives.”


The bolding is mine. As you can read, the ATF strongly supports vaccinations and believes that mandatory vaccinations should be subject to negotiation. Significantly, the ATF says that 90 percent of their teachers and school staff are vaccinated. Moreover, the single sentence quoted by the PP (with the added summation that "here we have it"), appears to have been in regard to nurses rather than teachers. Finally, the PP's conclusion that the ATF opposes mandatory vaccinations is completely and utterly wrong.

Edit to add the link to the statement that I forgot to include:

https://www.aft.org/press-release/aft-president-randi-weingarten-says-healthcare-worker-vaccines-are-critical



I'm not "anti WTU," Jeff. I'm pro-keeping-schools-open. Nothing you cited demonstrates that unions are in favor of mandatory vaccination. Randi Weingarten is the AFT (American Federation of Teacher's Union) president -- she was obviously talking about teachers, in the overall context of public employee vaccination requirements. And claiming that "mandatory vaccination should be subject to negotiation" while at the same time saying that mandatory vaccination will lead to a parade of horribles (nurses quitting) is obviously being against mandatory vaccination. AFT opposes mandatory vaccination and that's what the statement you cited means.


And Jeff, giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you don't understand what "mandatory subject of negotiation" means. It's doesn't mean that the union is putting mandatory vaccination on the table, as in, they want to advocate for it. It means that the employer MUST bargain with the union over vaccination. The rest of the statement makes clear that AFT is against mandatory vaccination, and will oppose it in their negotiations. That's what AFT means when they say "mandatory subject for negotiations."

Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 19:53     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Ok well here we have it. The AFT (the national union organization of which WTU is a local chapter) is against mandatory vaccination.

"“In order for everyone to feel safe and welcome in their workplaces, vaccinations must be negotiated between employers and workers, not coerced,” Randi Weingarten, the president of the American Federation of Teachers, said in a statement."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/26/mandatory-vaccinations-urged-health-workers/

I'm not sure if WTU would ever go against their national, but seems unlikely. I supposed there's wiggle room to claim that all they want is to "bargain" over mandatory vaccination, but I can't really see the distinction between bargaining over it and opposing it. If a union member would like to come here and explain, I'm all ears.


As if often the case here, an anti-WTU poster has taken a single sentence from a longer statement (admittedly the single sentence quoted by the Post) and spun it in the most anti-WTU light possible. I think the it is worth reading the entire Weingarten statement which is quite short:

“More than 90 percent of the AFT’s educators and school staff, and nearly 80 percent of our healthcare professionals, are vaccinated against COVID-19, and those numbers are only increasing. The COVID-19 vaccine is the most important tool we have to protect ourselves; our families; and the students, patients and communities we serve. As the delta variant spreads and COVID-19 cases rise in unvaccinated communities, we are reminded just how unpredictable this virus is and how critical vaccinations are to keeping our schools open for in-person learning and preventing our hospitals from becoming overwhelmed. With ICUs once again filling up and many reaching capacity, our nurses and healthcare professionals in particular are exhausted and anxious at the prospect of another COVID-19 surge.

“In order for everyone to feel safe and welcome in their workplaces, vaccinations must be negotiated between employers and workers, not coerced. We believe strongly that everyone should get vaccinated unless they have a medical or religious exception, and that this should be a mandatory subject of negotiation for employers to keep their employees safe and build trust. But healthcare professionals are concerned that mandating vaccines outside contract negotiation will only result in more people leaving the bedside at a time when staffing levels are already low from the trauma of the past year. This makes vaccine advocacy more important than ever, and medical professionals must be on the front lines of correcting the rampant vaccine disinformation campaign that is costing American lives.”


The bolding is mine. As you can read, the ATF strongly supports vaccinations and believes that mandatory vaccinations should be subject to negotiation. Significantly, the ATF says that 90 percent of their teachers and school staff are vaccinated. Moreover, the single sentence quoted by the PP (with the added summation that "here we have it"), appears to have been in regard to nurses rather than teachers. Finally, the PP's conclusion that the ATF opposes mandatory vaccinations is completely and utterly wrong.

Edit to add the link to the statement that I forgot to include:

https://www.aft.org/press-release/aft-president-randi-weingarten-says-healthcare-worker-vaccines-are-critical



I'm not "anti WTU," Jeff. I'm pro-keeping-schools-open. Nothing you cited demonstrates that unions are in favor of mandatory vaccination. Randi Weingarten is the AFT (American Federation of Teacher's Union) president -- she was obviously talking about teachers, in the overall context of public employee vaccination requirements. And claiming that "mandatory vaccination should be subject to negotiation" while at the same time saying that mandatory vaccination will lead to a parade of horribles (nurses quitting) is obviously being against mandatory vaccination. AFT opposes mandatory vaccination and that's what the statement you cited means.
jsteele
Post 07/27/2021 19:40     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Anonymous wrote:Ok well here we have it. The AFT (the national union organization of which WTU is a local chapter) is against mandatory vaccination.

"“In order for everyone to feel safe and welcome in their workplaces, vaccinations must be negotiated between employers and workers, not coerced,” Randi Weingarten, the president of the American Federation of Teachers, said in a statement."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/26/mandatory-vaccinations-urged-health-workers/

I'm not sure if WTU would ever go against their national, but seems unlikely. I supposed there's wiggle room to claim that all they want is to "bargain" over mandatory vaccination, but I can't really see the distinction between bargaining over it and opposing it. If a union member would like to come here and explain, I'm all ears.


As if often the case here, an anti-WTU poster has taken a single sentence from a longer statement (admittedly the single sentence quoted by the Post) and spun it in the most anti-WTU light possible. I think the it is worth reading the entire Weingarten statement which is quite short:

“More than 90 percent of the AFT’s educators and school staff, and nearly 80 percent of our healthcare professionals, are vaccinated against COVID-19, and those numbers are only increasing. The COVID-19 vaccine is the most important tool we have to protect ourselves; our families; and the students, patients and communities we serve. As the delta variant spreads and COVID-19 cases rise in unvaccinated communities, we are reminded just how unpredictable this virus is and how critical vaccinations are to keeping our schools open for in-person learning and preventing our hospitals from becoming overwhelmed. With ICUs once again filling up and many reaching capacity, our nurses and healthcare professionals in particular are exhausted and anxious at the prospect of another COVID-19 surge.

“In order for everyone to feel safe and welcome in their workplaces, vaccinations must be negotiated between employers and workers, not coerced. We believe strongly that everyone should get vaccinated unless they have a medical or religious exception, and that this should be a mandatory subject of negotiation for employers to keep their employees safe and build trust. But healthcare professionals are concerned that mandating vaccines outside contract negotiation will only result in more people leaving the bedside at a time when staffing levels are already low from the trauma of the past year. This makes vaccine advocacy more important than ever, and medical professionals must be on the front lines of correcting the rampant vaccine disinformation campaign that is costing American lives.”


The bolding is mine. As you can read, the ATF strongly supports vaccinations and believes that mandatory vaccinations should be subject to negotiation. Significantly, the ATF says that 90 percent of their teachers and school staff are vaccinated. Moreover, the single sentence quoted by the PP (with the added summation that "here we have it"), appears to have been in regard to nurses rather than teachers. Finally, the PP's conclusion that the ATF opposes mandatory vaccinations is completely and utterly wrong.

Edit to add the link to the statement that I forgot to include:

https://www.aft.org/press-release/aft-president-randi-weingarten-says-healthcare-worker-vaccines-are-critical

Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 19:36     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The bigger issue is testing all the students. It makes no sense to test staff and not students.


Not really if the goal is preventing in school spread. Kids, especially elementary and middle school, are very poor transmitters. If a spread occurs then patient zero is almost certainly going to be an adult.


Also, let's just assume for a moment that the random asymptomatic testing does catch someone unvaccinated with the Delta variant. It's probably already too late. Testing does NOTHING to prevent COVID. All it does is measure it.


Testing, alone, does not stop spread. Testing + quarantines stops spread beyond one layer of contacts.


Not really. The contact tracing is a joke and the virus moves faster than the testing.
Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 19:27     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Ok well here we have it. The AFT (the national union organization of which WTU is a local chapter) is against mandatory vaccination.

"“In order for everyone to feel safe and welcome in their workplaces, vaccinations must be negotiated between employers and workers, not coerced,” Randi Weingarten, the president of the American Federation of Teachers, said in a statement."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/26/mandatory-vaccinations-urged-health-workers/

I'm not sure if WTU would ever go against their national, but seems unlikely. I supposed there's wiggle room to claim that all they want is to "bargain" over mandatory vaccination, but I can't really see the distinction between bargaining over it and opposing it. If a union member would like to come here and explain, I'm all ears.
Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 15:23     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The bigger issue is testing all the students. It makes no sense to test staff and not students.


Not really if the goal is preventing in school spread. Kids, especially elementary and middle school, are very poor transmitters. If a spread occurs then patient zero is almost certainly going to be an adult.


Also, let's just assume for a moment that the random asymptomatic testing does catch someone unvaccinated with the Delta variant. It's probably already too late. Testing does NOTHING to prevent COVID. All it does is measure it.


Testing, alone, does not stop spread. Testing + quarantines stops spread beyond one layer of contacts.


You are assuming that person was patient 0.
Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 15:19     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The bigger issue is testing all the students. It makes no sense to test staff and not students.


Not really if the goal is preventing in school spread. Kids, especially elementary and middle school, are very poor transmitters. If a spread occurs then patient zero is almost certainly going to be an adult.


Also, let's just assume for a moment that the random asymptomatic testing does catch someone unvaccinated with the Delta variant. It's probably already too late. Testing does NOTHING to prevent COVID. All it does is measure it.


Testing, alone, does not stop spread. Testing + quarantines stops spread beyond one layer of contacts.
Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 13:37     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The bigger issue is testing all the students. It makes no sense to test staff and not students.


Not really if the goal is preventing in school spread. Kids, especially elementary and middle school, are very poor transmitters. If a spread occurs then patient zero is almost certainly going to be an adult.


Also, let's just assume for a moment that the random asymptomatic testing does catch someone unvaccinated with the Delta variant. It's probably already too late. Testing does NOTHING to prevent COVID. All it does is measure it.
Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 13:28     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Anonymous wrote:The bigger issue is testing all the students. It makes no sense to test staff and not students.


Not really if the goal is preventing in school spread. Kids, especially elementary and middle school, are very poor transmitters. If a spread occurs then patient zero is almost certainly going to be an adult.
Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 12:15     Subject: Re:Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Anonymous wrote:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/27/cdc-masks-guidance-indoors/


Top health officials, who were debating the new masking guidance on Monday afternoon, said the game-changer in the discussions was new data showing that vaccinated individuals infected with the delta variant carry the same viral load as unvaccinated individuals who are infected, according to three people familiar with the data. Vaccinated people are unlikely to become severely ill, but the new data raises questions about how easily they can transmit the disease, said the three individuals.


This is concerning guys. We need all the masks and testing until Less than 12s can get the vaccine.



This was posted in another thread. But all the more reason got vaccines, masks, etc.


sounds like we need MANDATORY vaccination.
Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 12:13     Subject: Re:Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students




https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/27/cdc-masks-guidance-indoors/


Top health officials, who were debating the new masking guidance on Monday afternoon, said the game-changer in the discussions was new data showing that vaccinated individuals infected with the delta variant carry the same viral load as unvaccinated individuals who are infected, according to three people familiar with the data. Vaccinated people are unlikely to become severely ill, but the new data raises questions about how easily they can transmit the disease, said the three individuals.


This is concerning guys. We need all the masks and testing until Less than 12s can get the vaccine.



This was posted in another thread. But all the more reason got vaccines, masks, etc.
Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 12:12     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I would like the WTU defender to come here and answer the question directly. Is WTU in favor of mandatory vaccination, or not?


I'm not the president of the WTU, but everything that they put out online makes me think that they are


It doesn’t matter if they are because they don’t have that sort of control over members, especially since membership is not a requirement of employment. I’m sure that they recommend any number of things that are for the own good of their members as well as benefiting society at large such as teachers buying houses or having as much life insurance as possible. But they can’t force people to do it.


This is incorrect. Unions can absolutely bargain over mandatory vaccination as a condition of employment. I'm not sure why you think it's "impossible." Unless there's a labor lawyer here who has a different viewpoint, I think the state of play is that mandatory vaccination is a subject for mandatory bargaining. (May be different for public employee unions, not sure.) And no, nobody can "force" people to get vaccinated, but it can be made into a condition of employment.

Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 11:20     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I would like the WTU defender to come here and answer the question directly. Is WTU in favor of mandatory vaccination, or not?


I'm not the president of the WTU, but everything that they put out online makes me think that they are


It doesn’t matter if they are because they don’t have that sort of control over members, especially since membership is not a requirement of employment. I’m sure that they recommend any number of things that are for the own good of their members as well as benefiting society at large such as teachers buying houses or having as much life insurance as possible. But they can’t force people to do it.
Anonymous
Post 07/27/2021 11:07     Subject: Mandatory vaccines for teachers/staff and eligible students
Anonymous wrote:I would like the WTU defender to come here and answer the question directly. Is WTU in favor of mandatory vaccination, or not?


+1