Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think implied in this conversation, but not expressly stated, is the belief that somehow, the wife can force the husband to do more if only she insists more, using the right words and logic.

But the wife can’t do that. She cannot make him do anything, full stop. A cleaning service is accepting it as true (which it is).

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).

Stopping looking at it this way saved my marriage.

Agreed. This is not how men think at ALL.

You two are married to some pretty poor excuses for men.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).

No, because he doesn't agree that ALL of it needs to be done
And certainly not to his wife's standards. And probably most of it, not at all.
That includes schlepping the kids' around to activities.

He may not express this, or even think about it much, but likely that's how he's wired

And who is to say the more anal person should get their way? Just to keep them happy? No. No reason to think their way of life is better.

NP: sadly, this. It took me forever to understand. My DH views “housework” as doing dishes after meals, doing laundry (whether it gets put away now or later) and wiping or sweeping up anything particular gross. He helps with all of those things, and in his view he is “helping with half of the necessary housework”. He does not care about fingerprints, dust, crumbs, clutter, and feels it is totally fine to leave things lying around absolutely everywhere (why put it away if I will use it again soon?). If the shower doesn’t have visible mold/mildew and the bathroom floors or toilet aren’t truly nasty, he can still see himself in the mirror, etc- he sees no reason to clean them. He’s be fine with cleaning then bathrooms twice a year other than swishing the toilet- he’s maybe do that every 2wks. He just plain does not see anything beyond the most basic (dishes and laundry) of household tasks as “essential”. He seems them as a personal preference, almost like a hobby. To put it into a different perspective: I see yard work as mowing the lawn and removing snow when it snows. I’m happy to help with my 1/2 of those. If DH planted or put in some super elaborate landscaping that required an hour of daily maintenance, then expected me to “do half” I would refuse. I don’t care how much it makes him “happy”- it is unnecessary and not how I want to spend my free time. If he wants to, he can.

I HATE the above facts, but it is the truth, and it is how my DH sees it. I’ll bet tons of other messy people do too.

That’s the problem.

I am 100% Team DH in your above description. It just seems logical and sane. If you need to scrub invisible dirt to soothe the voices in your head, I suggest you treat your extreme anxiety.

I'm mostly in camp DH, and honestly, that is what we do in our home. We prioritize the essentials, and the rest gets done, but not as frequently as some households. Then we also clean everything for company (because we are from the midwest and that is what you do). There is a way to compromise here, though. There is something between "scrubbing invisible dirt" and "waiting until bathroom is visibly scummy". You can probably negotiate a schedule that is fair to both.

And the PPs problem is almost exactly what hiring a cleaning service solves. Husband helps with the "essential" day to day, but the rest of it is "extra". If you can't afford it, do what you can and accept a lower level of cleanliness. We should be teaching our kids both how to be respectful of shared spaces and basics for keeping things clean and sanitary. But we should also be teaching them how to accept a little bit of mess in their lives.

No, there literally isn't. That's the point. If you're cleaning before there is visible scum, you are just cleaning to soothe your anxiety over made-up fears, and that is 100% her problem in her head that her husband should not be responsible for.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m kind of with you, OP.
Outsourcing to a cleaner every other week helps somewhat, but it isn’t that helpful. If we were really only talking about 4 hours/wk of work, then all of this complaining would be ridiculous.
But outsourcing daily cleaning really isn’t that expensive. It’s not cheap, but it’s considerably less expensive than other alternatives like divorcing and maintaining two households or quitting your job/going part time (as long as you make a higher hourly wage than your housekeeper).

Also, I would argue that it isn’t any harder to teach kids to clean when you have a regular housekeeper. When you have this, then kids are used to things being clean, and they feel like that’s the way things ought to be, so they tolerate less mess. My kids were used to having a clean room, dusted and vacuumed, with a made bed and clothes put away. Now that they are older, and we don’t need a daily housekeeper anymore, when they have to clean their rooms, they only feel clean when they are dusted and vacuumed with made beds and clothes put away. Same goes for bathrooms, kitchen, etc. If it had been up to me, they would have spent their childhoods digging clean clothes from a huge pile in a hamper that I never completely got folded.

+1.

What about the disrespect he is showing you by outright refusing to perform a very reasonable request by you (doing his fair share of the cleaning)?

Yes, this is my problem with this solution. You aren't actually fixing anything. Your husband is a jerk. I don't know how you could stand to be married to someone who thinks you should do everything around the house. That, to me, would be worth leaving, if someone thought my time was worth less than theirs. Why throw money at that problem?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree, OP. And while everyone will disagree about exactly what has to be done outside of a regular cleaning person, to pretend the answer is “nothing” or “minimal” is still just missing the problem. And then of course, when you point it out, you get the ole “oh you’re just harping, that’s unnecessary” line which just further denegrates the work that (mostly women) are doing.

We are not particularly clean people. We don’t touch the bathrooms or vacuum between professional cleanings. We don’t make our bed. But still - the kitchen has to be taken care of after dinner each night (clearing the table, putting away leftovers, loading and running the dishwasher, washing pots and pans). The dishwasher has to be unloaded. The trash needs to be taken out on trash day. The mail has to be gotten and dealt with at least occasionally. Even if you send out laundry, it has to be put back in drawers. Even if you order groceries for delivery, the order needs to be placed and the groceries put away. Someone has to cook dinner. The laundry service, house cleaners, and childcare needs to be managed, paid, and communicated with. Kid logistics need to be deal with (scheduling, buying clothes, school stuff, finding camps, managing extracurriculars, etc).

Unless you have the funds to pay for essentially a full time house manager and cook, there is work to be done, and if one person won’t hold up his half it’s totally unfair and unacceptable, IMHO.

But none of the people saying outsource are saying the DH should do nothing. They’re all saying, in essence, if there are 24 hours of housekeeping to be done, outsourcing 12 of it leaves 6 for each parent. I can sign up to six. My DH can sign up to six. He would never sign up for 12, and I would certainly not do 24 so he could slack off. But I also wouldn’t add another two hours per week by saying the beds need to be made every day...

I make three beds every morning because my kids are little and do a terrible job and there's no way it takes me two hours per week.

Anonymous wrote:I’m kind of with you, OP.
Outsourcing to a cleaner every other week helps somewhat, but it isn’t that helpful. If we were really only talking about 4 hours/wk of work, then all of this complaining would be ridiculous.
But outsourcing daily cleaning really isn’t that expensive. It’s not cheap, but it’s considerably less expensive than other alternatives like divorcing and maintaining two households or quitting your job/going part time (as long as you make a higher hourly wage than your housekeeper).

Also, I would argue that it isn’t any harder to teach kids to clean when you have a regular housekeeper. When you have this, then kids are used to things being clean, and they feel like that’s the way things ought to be, so they tolerate less mess. My kids were used to having a clean room, dusted and vacuumed, with a made bed and clothes put away. Now that they are older, and we don’t need a daily housekeeper anymore, when they have to clean their rooms, they only feel clean when they are dusted and vacuumed with made beds and clothes put away. Same goes for bathrooms, kitchen, etc. If it had been up to me, they would have spent their childhoods digging clean clothes from a huge pile in a hamper that I never completely got folded.

We had a daily maid growing up and I had no problem keeping a clean dorm room at college and an immaculate apartment after that. My whole life I've been neat and clean and I now have a maid and my kids don't do cleaning but they do make their beds, put their laundry in the hamper, clean up their toys, set the table, and put their dirty dishes in the dishwasher. At age 7 we're not doing laundry yet and they can't reach to put away most dishes but we'll get there. Doesn't mean they ever need to scrub toilets. I do have girls though, so I may feel differently if I had boys.

She said that she didn’t have enough for monthly cleaners.

Everyone does if they make it a priority

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My feeling about it is this. I love my spouse and I love our life together. Outsourcing the cleaning does two things. It gets rid of conflict and it improves quality of life because neither of us likes to do it. Yes there are things to be done, but when the big stuff is out of the equation there is a lot less on your plate and it’s not as important to keep score.

I guess some people will divorce over cleaning of cleaning can be the straw that breaks the camels back. And I’m sure for some the cost of outsourcing is a deterrent. But living in conflict, therapy and divorce are so much more expensive.

So I totally get this. I've had a maid for as long as I've had a salary because I hate cleaning and will do anything to avoid it. I keep a super neat house and am good at cleaning things that are used on a regular basis and I'll vacuum, but I'd rather do just about anything than clean a bathroom, even one that's not gross. So improving quality of life I am all for.

But the getting rid of conflict thing confuses me. Last March, when everything went crazy, we stopped having our maid come. This was for several months until we decided it was ok to start up again and she felt comfortable, so for those months it was just my husband and I doing all the cleaning. He actually did more than I did because I was busy with some other things. So I know he'd step up and do it if we didn't have anyone. Paying someone to avoid being annoyed with him seems to me to be putting a bandaid over a bullet hole?

Eh. If it’s not a conflict for you, then it’s not a conflict for you. Personally, I don’t see why married people would fight about money or sex. But for some people, those things are an issue. For us, it’s chores.
I’m sure there is some kind of conflict in your marriage.

Anonymous wrote:My feeling about it is this. I love my spouse and I love our life together. Outsourcing the cleaning does two things. It gets rid of conflict and it improves quality of life because neither of us likes to do it. Yes there are things to be done, but when the big stuff is out of the equation there is a lot less on your plate and it’s not as important to keep score.

I guess some people will divorce over cleaning of cleaning can be the straw that breaks the camels back. And I’m sure for some the cost of outsourcing is a deterrent. But living in conflict, therapy and divorce are so much more expensive.

So I totally get this. I've had a maid for as long as I've had a salary because I hate cleaning and will do anything to avoid it. I keep a super neat house and am good at cleaning things that are used on a regular basis and I'll vacuum, but I'd rather do just about anything than clean a bathroom, even one that's not gross. So improving quality of life I am all for.

But the getting rid of conflict thing confuses me. Last March, when everything went crazy, we stopped having our maid come. This was for several months until we decided it was ok to start up again and she felt comfortable, so for those months it was just my husband and I doing all the cleaning. He actually did more than I did because I was busy with some other things. So I know he'd step up and do it if we didn't have anyone. Paying someone to avoid being annoyed with him seems to me to be putting a bandaid over a bullet hole?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).

No, because he doesn't agree that ALL of it needs to be done
And certainly not to his wife's standards. And probably most of it, not at all.
That includes schlepping the kids' around to activities.

He may not express this, or even think about it much, but likely that's how he's wired

And who is to say the more anal person should get their way? Just to keep them happy? No. No reason to think their way of life is better.

NP: sadly, this. It took me forever to understand. My DH views “housework” as doing dishes after meals, doing laundry (whether it gets put away now or later) and wiping or sweeping up anything particular gross. He helps with all of those things, and in his view he is “helping with half of the necessary housework”. He does not care about fingerprints, dust, crumbs, clutter, and feels it is totally fine to leave things lying around absolutely everywhere (why put it away if I will use it again soon?). If the shower doesn’t have visible mold/mildew and the bathroom floors or toilet aren’t truly nasty, he can still see himself in the mirror, etc- he sees no reason to clean them. He’s be fine with cleaning then bathrooms twice a year other than swishing the toilet- he’s maybe do that every 2wks. He just plain does not see anything beyond the most basic (dishes and laundry) of household tasks as “essential”. He seems them as a personal preference, almost like a hobby. To put it into a different perspective: I see yard work as mowing the lawn and removing snow when it snows. I’m happy to help with my 1/2 of those. If DH planted or put in some super elaborate landscaping that required an hour of daily maintenance, then expected me to “do half” I would refuse. I don’t care how much it makes him “happy”- it is unnecessary and not how I want to spend my free time. If he wants to, he can.

I HATE the above facts, but it is the truth, and it is how my DH sees it. I’ll bet tons of other messy people do too.

That’s the problem.

I am 100% Team DH in your above description. It just seems logical and sane. If you need to scrub invisible dirt to soothe the voices in your head, I suggest you treat your extreme anxiety.

I'm mostly in camp DH, and honestly, that is what we do in our home. We prioritize the essentials, and the rest gets done, but not as frequently as some households. Then we also clean everything for company (because we are from the midwest and that is what you do). There is a way to compromise here, though. There is something between "scrubbing invisible dirt" and "waiting until bathroom is visibly scummy". You can probably negotiate a schedule that is fair to both.

And the PPs problem is almost exactly what hiring a cleaning service solves. Husband helps with the "essential" day to day, but the rest of it is "extra". If you can't afford it, do what you can and accept a lower level of cleanliness. We should be teaching our kids both how to be respectful of shared spaces and basics for keeping things clean and sanitary. But we should also be teaching them how to accept a little bit of mess in their lives.

This was the problem for years in my marriage. I was the single guy in my 20s who would have friends or dates come over and remark how clean I kept my place. But, of course, they weren't checking to see if everything was organized in my closets and visitors don't typically check if their is dust on top of the ceiling fans or if you clean behind the fridge every few months vs. once a week.

When we had three kids under five (yay twins), our agreed upon solution was that we'd both work to do 50/50 of the day-to-day and she could spend 2-3 hours on the weekend doing her cleaning projects if I was 100 percent responsible for the kids during that time with real activities.

We realised that at the end of each Saturday like that we both felt like we'd been the one to do more work and resented each other. A cleaning service ended that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).

No, because he doesn't agree that ALL of it needs to be done
And certainly not to his wife's standards. And probably most of it, not at all.
That includes schlepping the kids' around to activities.

He may not express this, or even think about it much, but likely that's how he's wired

And who is to say the more anal person should get their way? Just to keep them happy? No. No reason to think their way of life is better.

NP: sadly, this. It took me forever to understand. My DH views “housework” as doing dishes after meals, doing laundry (whether it gets put away now or later) and wiping or sweeping up anything particular gross. He helps with all of those things, and in his view he is “helping with half of the necessary housework”. He does not care about fingerprints, dust, crumbs, clutter, and feels it is totally fine to leave things lying around absolutely everywhere (why put it away if I will use it again soon?). If the shower doesn’t have visible mold/mildew and the bathroom floors or toilet aren’t truly nasty, he can still see himself in the mirror, etc- he sees no reason to clean them. He’s be fine with cleaning then bathrooms twice a year other than swishing the toilet- he’s maybe do that every 2wks. He just plain does not see anything beyond the most basic (dishes and laundry) of household tasks as “essential”. He seems them as a personal preference, almost like a hobby. To put it into a different perspective: I see yard work as mowing the lawn and removing snow when it snows. I’m happy to help with my 1/2 of those. If DH planted or put in some super elaborate landscaping that required an hour of daily maintenance, then expected me to “do half” I would refuse. I don’t care how much it makes him “happy”- it is unnecessary and not how I want to spend my free time. If he wants to, he can.

I HATE the above facts, but it is the truth, and it is how my DH sees it. I’ll bet tons of other messy people do too.

That’s the problem.

I am 100% Team DH in your above description. It just seems logical and sane. If you need to scrub invisible dirt to soothe the voices in your head, I suggest you treat your extreme anxiety.

I'm mostly in camp DH, and honestly, that is what we do in our home. We prioritize the essentials, and the rest gets done, but not as frequently as some households. Then we also clean everything for company (because we are from the midwest and that is what you do). There is a way to compromise here, though. There is something between "scrubbing invisible dirt" and "waiting until bathroom is visibly scummy". You can probably negotiate a schedule that is fair to both.

And the PPs problem is almost exactly what hiring a cleaning service solves. Husband helps with the "essential" day to day, but the rest of it is "extra". If you can't afford it, do what you can and accept a lower level of cleanliness. We should be teaching our kids both how to be respectful of shared spaces and basics for keeping things clean and sanitary. But we should also be teaching them how to accept a little bit of mess in their lives.

If you allow your children to leave pubes all over the bathroom for you to wipe up, you definitely do not need to be lecturing women on standing up to their lazy, disrespectful husbands. Do your children not feel that it is disrespectful yo do that? Do they leave pubes as a guest in other people’s homes? How mortifying. You might actually have to clean so much because you have created shameless slobs. I would not ask my husband to wipe up the teens pubes because I don’t think that’s my job either.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).

No, because he doesn't agree that ALL of it needs to be done
And certainly not to his wife's standards. And probably most of it, not at all.
That includes schlepping the kids' around to activities.

He may not express this, or even think about it much, but likely that's how he's wired

And who is to say the more anal person should get their way? Just to keep them happy? No. No reason to think their way of life is better.

NP: sadly, this. It took me forever to understand. My DH views “housework” as doing dishes after meals, doing laundry (whether it gets put away now or later) and wiping or sweeping up anything particular gross. He helps with all of those things, and in his view he is “helping with half of the necessary housework”. He does not care about fingerprints, dust, crumbs, clutter, and feels it is totally fine to leave things lying around absolutely everywhere (why put it away if I will use it again soon?). If the shower doesn’t have visible mold/mildew and the bathroom floors or toilet aren’t truly nasty, he can still see himself in the mirror, etc- he sees no reason to clean them. He’s be fine with cleaning then bathrooms twice a year other than swishing the toilet- he’s maybe do that every 2wks. He just plain does not see anything beyond the most basic (dishes and laundry) of household tasks as “essential”. He seems them as a personal preference, almost like a hobby. To put it into a different perspective: I see yard work as mowing the lawn and removing snow when it snows. I’m happy to help with my 1/2 of those. If DH planted or put in some super elaborate landscaping that required an hour of daily maintenance, then expected me to “do half” I would refuse. I don’t care how much it makes him “happy”- it is unnecessary and not how I want to spend my free time. If he wants to, he can.

I HATE the above facts, but it is the truth, and it is how my DH sees it. I’ll bet tons of other messy people do too.

That’s the problem.

I am 100% Team DH in your above description. It just seems logical and sane. If you need to scrub invisible dirt to soothe the voices in your head, I suggest you treat your extreme anxiety.

Anonymous wrote:Ok seriously people I think the bigger problem being illuminated in this thread is that your bathrooms become 'covered in pee' on a regular basis.

My housecleaners come biweekly and I have three children and NONE of my bathrooms are ever left 'covered in pee'. If someone pees on the floor that is like, spilling milk. You clean it up then and there.

My husband pees on the floor, and also has mobility issues - legitimately - preventing him from bending down to clean it up. We've tried him feebly attempting to do it; we've tried leaving it until the cleaners come; we've tried fighting and not fighting - and at the end of the day, I have concluded that it is easiest and most efficient if I just take on the responsibility of mucking up pee from the floor.

Honestly the mental burden of making up some other system is greater than the physical burden of just cleaning it the heck up.

Anonymous wrote:If kids have pubes, they’re old enough to clean their own bathroom. Just sayin’.

But yea, I feel ya. Even with outsourcing, just knowing that my partner doesn’t care enough about me to pitch in kinda kills my interest in them. It’s not about chores, it’s about showing up for your partner and also valuing the things that they value.

I’m not a man, but I imagine it’s the difference between having a wife who finally gives in and lays there when you nag for duty sex, vs a wife who may not have the same level of desire as you, but recognizes how important sex is to you and puts in the effort to make it pleasureable and enjoy it, too.

It’s like that scene from The Break Up: “I don’t want you to go the dishes, I want you to *want* to do the dishes”.

+1

Anonymous wrote:

A husband who genuinely loves his wife and respects her as a person would change his ways after being shown how impossible it is for her to do everything (be a working mom and a SAHM who does 90% of child and house related tasks).

No, because he doesn't agree that ALL of it needs to be done
And certainly not to his wife's standards. And probably most of it, not at all.
That includes schlepping the kids' around to activities.

He may not express this, or even think about it much, but likely that's how he's wired

And who is to say the more anal person should get their way? Just to keep them happy? No. No reason to think their way of life is better.

NP: sadly, this. It took me forever to understand. My DH views “housework” as doing dishes after meals, doing laundry (whether it gets put away now or later) and wiping or sweeping up anything particular gross. He helps with all of those things, and in his view he is “helping with half of the necessary housework”. He does not care about fingerprints, dust, crumbs, clutter, and feels it is totally fine to leave things lying around absolutely everywhere (why put it away if I will use it again soon?). If the shower doesn’t have visible mold/mildew and the bathroom floors or toilet aren’t truly nasty, he can still see himself in the mirror, etc- he sees no reason to clean them. He’s be fine with cleaning then bathrooms twice a year other than swishing the toilet- he’s maybe do that every 2wks. He just plain does not see anything beyond the most basic (dishes and laundry) of household tasks as “essential”. He seems them as a personal preference, almost like a hobby. To put it into a different perspective: I see yard work as mowing the lawn and removing snow when it snows. I’m happy to help with my 1/2 of those. If DH planted or put in some super elaborate landscaping that required an hour of daily maintenance, then expected me to “do half” I would refuse. I don’t care how much it makes him “happy”- it is unnecessary and not how I want to spend my free time. If he wants to, he can.

I HATE the above facts, but it is the truth, and it is how my DH sees it. I’ll bet tons of other messy people do too.

That’s the problem.

I also echo what someone said about people not understanding easy basic tasks (wipe frequently with a Clorox wipe, put stuff away daily, etc etc)- if those things are done by everyone in the household, the cleaning should be minimal. Some people have absolutely no how to do this- most of us learn it the hard way. “Ugh look at all of this buildup I have to scrub...never letting this happen again...I’ll make sure to wipe down weekly”. That sort of thing.

I have no solutions to this awful issue. Paid cleaning helps, but there is still daily stuff to do.