Top 1 percent is a huge difference between high and low. My old boss made 5 million a year yet felt poor. In the tip 1 percent he is lumped with folks making 500 million plus a year

I think HHI is a bad measure. We have a solid HHI (top 10% maybe) but limited net worth as we just started our careers.

I think part of this is that what an UMC lifestyle is today is closer to what the middle class experienced 40-50 years. Single family home, good paying professional and stable jobs, nice local public schools, 2-3 kids, good health care plans, fully funded retirement accounts or at least enough to be on track for a reasonable retirement and fund their children's college education. In the DMV, being able to satisfy all of these is now a luxury good. Moreover, many of these items (housing with good local public schools, good health care plans, college) have increased relative to average incomes and are now out of reach for those in the middle class and below.

There was a good piece in The Atlantic a few months ago regarding The Simpsons and how America's most famous dysfunctional family of 1990s television enjoyed, by today’s standards, an almost dreamily secure existence that now seems out of reach for all too many Americans. Homer, a high-school graduate whose union job at the nuclear-power plant required little technical skill, supported a family of five. A home, a car, food, regular doctor’s appointments, and enough left over for plenty of beer at the local bar were all attainable on a single working-class salary. This lifestyle was not fantastical in the slightest—nothing, for example, like the ridiculously large Manhattan apartments in Friends. On the contrary, the Simpsons used to be quite ordinary—they were a lot like Michigan working-class families in the 1990s.

Too 20% is also Not middle class. Top 20% is NOT the middle of anything.

There is a tendency for Many to point to the people earning more than them and scream “rich”.

You people are insane. Per this article, to be in the top 5% of earners in the DC area, you need to make over $250k a year:

https://statisticalatlas.com/state/District-of-Columbia/Household-Income

If you are in the TOP 5% OF EARNERS you are by definition NOT IN THE MIDDLE. DUH. You are also not in the upper middle. YOU ARE AT THE TOP. YOU ARE RICH. Yes, we do, as a society, tend to take a wide view of middle, but anyone claiming to be middle class, or upper middle class, who is making more than $250k a year, is incredibly out of step with reality.

The exact cutoff we can discuss. The top 20% cutoff is $163k. I can see an argument for that being "upper middle class." This doesn't breakdown the top 10%, but I'm guessing it's around $200k. That's a reasonable cutoff. Clearly people can disagree here, and there's nuance.

But if you're above $250k and you are claiming upper middle class, I judge you HARD. Own it. You're rich.

Anonymous wrote:I feel that these threads are very painful for most parents who are making legitimate trade offs for their children.

Not to be glib but aren't these threads for the UMC and UC to discuss these issues? Of course, they're painful and potentially offensive to someone that hasn't been this fortunate. However, I can't have these conversations regarding social class with my colleagues, friends and neighbors without potentially risking insulting someone, which is why I love these anonymous forums!

Anonymous wrote:400k
2.5m
Family of 4

Middle income for our zip is 400 and average house is 1.5m

I guess we are upper middle?

No, you are rich. One of the things you are choosing to do with your money is live in an expensive zip code.

I can understand a general area of the country COL thought process here (yes, you need more money to live in the DMV than to live in Nebraska) but doing it zip by zip is absurd. You are rich, so you live in a nice area. That doesn't negate your richness.

I feel that these threads are very painful for most parents who are making legitimate trade offs for their children.

Anonymous wrote:How do you accumulate NW? Investments?

We are:
HHI: 165k
NW: $150k
Family of 4

We don’t own a home yet. We have turned our financial situation around considerably in the last 2 years and are seeing some nice snowballing. (Paid off all debts, building savings, etc)

PP who owns a primary home and a second previously occupied home now as an investment property. It's a combination of real estate appreciation, good mortgage rates (under 3% for primary and under 4% for investment property respectively), maximizing 401k and 529 contributions and other investments with equity allocations, and paying down mortgage debt on two houses (one from rent) as well as incurring no consumer debt (credit cards, car loans, home equity, etc.) and paying for things with cash or savings. But it all starts with good salaries - ours have grown by $100K combined in the last 5 years but we haven't changed our lifestyles other than having another DD.

How do you accumulate NW? Investments?

We are:
HHI: 165k
NW: $150k
Family of 4

We don’t own a home yet. We have turned our financial situation around considerably in the last 2 years and are seeing some nice snowballing. (Paid off all debts, building savings, etc)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know honestly. I admit upfront I am in the "I have a public service job but my father's estate pays for private schools and will pay for private college and graduate school for my kids" bucket.

will it also pay for your grandkids' private schooling, college, and grad schools, or will your kids have to face the fact that you let the gravy train dry up, and if they want to provide their kids the same standard of living, they're on their own?

Please. DP but do you hear yourself? I fully expect that if my kids want my standard of living, then they will have to work hard for it. Just like their parents do and their grandparents did. We've already given them a loving and supportive household, two smart parents with good work ethics, legacies at Ivy league and other top 20 institutions, savings that will fund whichever public or private college they get into and potentially giving them a nice estate (subject to whatever tax regime they find themselves in when we die) but it won't be until they've achieved things on their own. They're starting off better than all but 2-3% of households in this country.

I have several downwardly mobile relatives (i.e., mediocre white guys) that have been given all the things you described - private prep schools, private college, etc. and haven't amounted to anything. In my own job, I can spot these types a mile away. It's the prep school guy from Lehigh or Middlebury or some other middling college trading on his high school's reputation. Somewhat lazy and entitled but loves talking about his former lacrosse/crew/squash/etc. glory days. They're your future white rhinos -- endangered by changing demographics and expectations.

So we should scratch Lehigh and Middlebury from the college search list?

At least in finance circles, these colleges (along with schools like Washington and Lee, College of Charleston, Trinity College (CN)) are all viewed as second rate, "finishing" schools primarily for rich kids that either weren't sufficiently talented or had the work ethic to excel and get into better schools. But if you're into sales and other "glad handing"/relationship services like private wealth management, P&C insurance, certain sales and trading, brokerage (mortgage, commercial and residential real estate, etc.) or other front office type of services, then there still is a market for your services. I expect that this is where the most disruption will occur over the next few decades as younger generations simply don't care who they interact with. These same mediocre white guys tend to struggle when it comes to things like litigation and M&A, which require excellent analytical skills and attention to detail.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know honestly. I admit upfront I am in the "I have a public service job but my father's estate pays for private schools and will pay for private college and graduate school for my kids" bucket.

will it also pay for your grandkids' private schooling, college, and grad schools, or will your kids have to face the fact that you let the gravy train dry up, and if they want to provide their kids the same standard of living, they're on their own?

Please. DP but do you hear yourself? I fully expect that if my kids want my standard of living, then they will have to work hard for it. Just like their parents do and their grandparents did. We've already given them a loving and supportive household, two smart parents with good work ethics, legacies at Ivy league and other top 20 institutions, savings that will fund whichever public or private college they get into and potentially giving them a nice estate (subject to whatever tax regime they find themselves in when we die) but it won't be until they've achieved things on their own. They're starting off better than all but 2-3% of households in this country.

I have several downwardly mobile relatives (i.e., mediocre white guys) that have been given all the things you described - private prep schools, private college, etc. and haven't amounted to anything. In my own job, I can spot these types a mile away. It's the prep school guy from Lehigh or Middlebury or some other middling college trading on his high school's reputation. Somewhat lazy and entitled but loves talking about his former lacrosse/crew/squash/etc. glory days. They're your future white rhinos -- endangered by changing demographics and expectations.

So we should scratch Lehigh and Middlebury from the college search list?

400k
2.5m
Family of 4

Middle income for our zip is 400 and average house is 1.5m

I guess we are upper middle?

Anonymous wrote:We live very comfortably on 120k, paid off home, cars, college, maids, foreign vacation, insurance etc. So certainly saving 1/2 our salary. I can not fathom needing more money as we are not denying ourselves anything. Maybe if I had a cocaine habit I would need more money.

I do think we are UMC in lifestyle with a350k HHI even in dmv, but one significant reason was that we kept our cost structures low. The best part of this was that I could afford to be a SAHM. The time I have spent with my kids is priceless. I don't think even the super rich can say that.

You don't think the super rich have SAHPs?

We live very comfortably on 120k, paid off home, cars, college, maids, foreign vacation, insurance etc. So certainly saving 1/2 our salary. I can not fathom needing more money as we are not denying ourselves anything. Maybe if I had a cocaine habit I would need more money.

I do think we are UMC in lifestyle with a350k HHI even in dmv, but one significant reason was that we kept our cost structures low. The best part of this was that I could afford to be a SAHM. The time I have spent with my kids is priceless. I don't think even the super rich can say that.