Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It reminds me of the Tucson shooting—that young man has also been asked to leave his college due to specific concerns about violent statements made. It’s not just the mental health disorder—it’s that for this specific person, the mental health disorder is manifesting as violent tendencies.
I think some of the “red flag” laws that some states are enacting help get at this problem, but only if the educational or other institutions make a report. I bet him dad and grandmother also had an idea of what was going on, and if there had been any mechanism for them to tell the state “please don’t allow my kid to get a gun” they would have. That was true in the Tucson case—the parents were very upset that there was not a way for them to get the son on a “no purchase” list unless he was convicted of something. In most cases, the people close to them know something is wrong but we refuse to give them the tools to protect themselves or the community.

I don't understand why the college roommate or even the college didnt try to reach out to the family that their son planned on killing them????

The one son lost his dorm room obviously well before Covid, and I doubt one of the murderers ever told anyone besides the other brother about their plans. Certainly the school must have let the parents know whatever he did to get kicked out. I feel terrible for the parents, it seems like they tried to help according to that skin-crawling note.

I think your assumption is wrong. Between FErpa and hippa schools don’t have a lot of leeway to tell parents. My sister was on faculty at a college and was stalked by a mentally ill student—the college would not tell the parents without the student’s consent because student was an adult. I had a roommate in grad school that had a schizophrenic break. We practically begged the student health services to call her family and to intervene. They would not tell us whether they had done anything but I don’t believe they called the family. We figured out a way to reach them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honest question - could the parents have had him involuntarily committed as an adult once he was kicked out of dorm?
He even said his family tried so many ways to help him.
What can we, as a society, do about people like this?

Involuntary holds are only if you're a serious threat to yourself or others. Doesn't sound like he did any of that until this week. Even then the holds are only a few weeks.

Perhaps we need something less than that. More than a welfare check but less than an involuntary hold.

Putting people in that category on a “no sell” list would be a great first start! Also free mental health treatment for them. Currently a lot of insurance will pay for an inpatient hospitalization but not ongoing treatment or outpatient.

Also, I’m interested in what % of the mentally ill do engage in violence, if 1% is not the right number. (I think it’s pretty much dead on the money when the denominator is all diagnoses, but would agree, as I have said above, that more robust pre-incident indicators are available).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honest question - could the parents have had him involuntarily committed as an adult once he was kicked out of dorm?
He even said his family tried so many ways to help him.
What can we, as a society, do about people like this?

Involuntary holds are only if you're a serious threat to yourself or others. Doesn't sound like he did any of that until this week. Even then the holds are only a few weeks.

Perhaps we need something less than that. More than a welfare check but less than an involuntary hold.

Yes exactly — something in the middle ground.

DCUM mental health policy pros, what are some mental health treatment and safety/prevention protocols y’all talk about? I’m genuinely curious.

What exactly do you think "more than a welfare check but less than an involuntary hold" would consist of? Bottom line, is the person being checked/held at liberty to depart or not? And who decides that?

I have NO idea -- which is why I asked someone who knows a lot about mental health care policy and advocacy, knowledge of development/trends in the field, etc, to weigh in. They talk about this stuff.

The reason no one who does know is going to jump in with a middle-ground answer is because there is no middle ground. Either the patient is free to leave or not.

What could happen, cf the above poster’s answer, is that treatment options could be made much more diverse and more attractive. That’s not about finding a middle ground between welfare checks and involuntary holds; that’s about spending money on us crazy people.

I used to defend clients against involuntary commitments and later as the state’s attorney I was the advocate seeking involuntary commitments. I know a lot about the system which is different from state to state but has a lot of uniform best practices that most states follow.

Involuntary holds initiated by medical professionals at the behest of law enforcement or family members last only days - usually around 72 hours - and may be lengthened only after a court hearing with counsel appointed for the subject of the hold. Even if a longer involuntary hold is authorized by the court it is usually limited to a set period of time and must be further reviewed by the court if a longer commitment is sought by medical professionals. In my experience the longer holds are rarely sought in the absence of a criminal act having been committed by the mentally ill person - and from what I’ve seen that’s usually because the resources just aren’t there. I can’t tell you how many suicidal people I’ve seen discharged from care within two weeks because the bed was needed by someone else. In theory the patient gets aftercare in the community, but in reality that often doesn’t happen.


The problem with the mental health system in the USA is that it is horrifically under resourced. AND, we have an abhorrent history of abusing the mentally ill, and of people who weren’t actually mentally ill being involuntarily committed and subject to terrible abuses - ‘difficult’ people whose families didn’t want to deal with them. In that respect the very strong protections of persons in the commitment system are well justified, but those protections coupled with a terribly broken community based mental healthcare system creates the perfect storm for the horrors we often see perpetrated by people experiencing UNSTABLE mental illness. (I emphasize unstable for the posters who keep trying to argue that mentally ill people are harmless and less than 1% engage in violence - very naive and wrong statements that ignore an extensive body of evidence studied exhaustively by mental health professionals all over the country.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honest question - could the parents have had him involuntarily committed as an adult once he was kicked out of dorm?
He even said his family tried so many ways to help him.
What can we, as a society, do about people like this?

Involuntary holds are only if you're a serious threat to yourself or others. Doesn't sound like he did any of that until this week. Even then the holds are only a few weeks.

Perhaps we need something less than that. More than a welfare check but less than an involuntary hold.

Yes exactly — something in the middle ground.

DCUM mental health policy pros, what are some mental health treatment and safety/prevention protocols y’all talk about? I’m genuinely curious.

What exactly do you think "more than a welfare check but less than an involuntary hold" would consist of? Bottom line, is the person being checked/held at liberty to depart or not? And who decides that?

I have NO idea -- which is why I asked someone who knows a lot about mental health care policy and advocacy, knowledge of development/trends in the field, etc, to weigh in. They talk about this stuff.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:gun control. gun control. gun control.

good luck with that. What reform would have prevented this?

Gun control. Like, real gun control. Court decisions that don't run roughshod over the actual Second Amendment because the judges are beholden to the NRA. Getting a gun should be infinitely more difficult than getting a driver's license and should take six months to a year of vetting, testing, and training. I realize that's not likely to happen, but that's what we need and I'm in favor of it. This kid and his brother should have been deemed mentally unstable to own a gun.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honest question - could the parents have had him involuntarily committed as an adult once he was kicked out of dorm?
He even said his family tried so many ways to help him.
What can we, as a society, do about people like this?

Involuntary holds are only if you're a serious threat to yourself or others. Doesn't sound like he did any of that until this week. Even then the holds are only a few weeks.

Perhaps we need something less than that. More than a welfare check but less than an involuntary hold.

Yes exactly — something in the middle ground.

DCUM mental health policy pros, what are some mental health treatment and safety/prevention protocols y’all talk about? I’m genuinely curious.

What exactly do you think "more than a welfare check but less than an involuntary hold" would consist of? Bottom line, is the person being checked/held at liberty to depart or not? And who decides that?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honest question - could the parents have had him involuntarily committed as an adult once he was kicked out of dorm?
He even said his family tried so many ways to help him.
What can we, as a society, do about people like this?

Involuntary holds are only if you're a serious threat to yourself or others. Doesn't sound like he did any of that until this week. Even then the holds are only a few weeks.

Perhaps we need something less than that. More than a welfare check but less than an involuntary hold.

Yes exactly — something in the middle ground.

DCUM mental health policy pros, what are some mental health treatment and safety/prevention protocols y’all talk about? I’m genuinely curious.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honest question - could the parents have had him involuntarily committed as an adult once he was kicked out of dorm?
He even said his family tried so many ways to help him.
What can we, as a society, do about people like this?

Involuntary holds are only if you're a serious threat to yourself or others. Doesn't sound like he did any of that until this week. Even then the holds are only a few weeks.

Perhaps we need something less than that. More than a welfare check but less than an involuntary hold.

Anonymous wrote:Honest question - could the parents have had him involuntarily committed as an adult once he was kicked out of dorm?
He even said his family tried so many ways to help him.
What can we, as a society, do about people like this?

Involuntary holds are only if you're a serious threat to yourself or others. Doesn't sound like he did any of that until this week. Even then the holds are only a few weeks.

Honest question - could the parents have had him involuntarily committed as an adult once he was kicked out of dorm?
He even said his family tried so many ways to help him.
What can we, as a society, do about people like this?

Anonymous wrote:I don't think any self-respecting South Asian immigrant family would have been okay with not just one but TWO college dropouts in the family! But what is crazy is that this was orchestrated by both brothers in the family, and what are the odds that two brothers in the same family would be okay with the idea of this? It's got to be genetic. I have a long family history of mental illness and it's one of the many reasons I'm choosing to not have children.

I know plenty of South Asian families with sons who are basically disgraces. The trick is the son works for the parents in the business they own or run. And some of them are too lazy to even do that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It reminds me of the Tucson shooting—that young man has also been asked to leave his college due to specific concerns about violent statements made. It’s not just the mental health disorder—it’s that for this specific person, the mental health disorder is manifesting as violent tendencies.
I think some of the “red flag” laws that some states are enacting help get at this problem, but only if the educational or other institutions make a report. I bet him dad and grandmother also had an idea of what was going on, and if there had been any mechanism for them to tell the state “please don’t allow my kid to get a gun” they would have. That was true in the Tucson case—the parents were very upset that there was not a way for them to get the son on a “no purchase” list unless he was convicted of something. In most cases, the people close to them know something is wrong but we refuse to give them the tools to protect themselves or the community.

I don't understand why the college roommate or even the college didnt try to reach out to the family that their son planned on killing them????

The one son lost his dorm room obviously well before Covid, and I doubt one of the murderers ever told anyone besides the other brother about their plans. Certainly the school must have let the parents know whatever he did to get kicked out. I feel terrible for the parents, it seems like they tried to help according to that skin-crawling note.

Yeah, that is not on the roommate. Presumably the family who raised him knows what type of son they had.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It reminds me of the Tucson shooting—that young man has also been asked to leave his college due to specific concerns about violent statements made. It’s not just the mental health disorder—it’s that for this specific person, the mental health disorder is manifesting as violent tendencies.
I think some of the “red flag” laws that some states are enacting help get at this problem, but only if the educational or other institutions make a report. I bet him dad and grandmother also had an idea of what was going on, and if there had been any mechanism for them to tell the state “please don’t allow my kid to get a gun” they would have. That was true in the Tucson case—the parents were very upset that there was not a way for them to get the son on a “no purchase” list unless he was convicted of something. In most cases, the people close to them know something is wrong but we refuse to give them the tools to protect themselves or the community.

I don't understand why the college roommate or even the college didnt try to reach out to the family that their son planned on killing them????

The one son lost his dorm room obviously well before Covid, and I doubt one of the murderers ever told anyone besides the other brother about their plans. Certainly the school must have let the parents know whatever he did to get kicked out. I feel terrible for the parents, it seems like they tried to help according to that skin-crawling note.