Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:54
Subject: ICE announcement
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:How many colleges are exclusively online?
I may have some school’s plans wrong. I’m not looking up every plan and plans are evolving. Bit I’ve been following because I have a college freshman.
Lots of Big State Us are teaching 100% online, but inviting some or all student back to campus. I think Michigan just announced this.
Many state Us are putting large electives on line, but having recitations in person. Purdue is doing this.
Many State Us are only letting limited students who must do hands on meet in person— sciences labs and hands on fine arts. If you major in politics, you will likely be entirely online in these schools. But many of the students at these school can live online. can live on campus.
At the flagship school for RI, you only get housing if you are OOS. In state is on their own for housing. Mix of on online and in person.
Harvard is letting freshmen come on campus in the fall and Seniors in the spring, but all classes on line. I think Princeton is also all online, tuition discount given. Yale is looking at getting everyone on in person.
Last I saw, UCs are moving to all classes online except specialties like nursing practicals and some senior lab students. The parallel CA State U system is online, most kids not welcome to live on campus.
SLACs are trying hard to get kids back and in live classes, but getting creative to get kids into single room and planning to test aggressively.. But some are only inviting a limited number of kids back (e.g. freshmen, seniors and lab sciences). Some are only inviting one class of kids at a time for short periods, like Grinnell. Some, like Oberlin, are moving to a trimester system (Freshmen and seniors in fall and spring. Sophomores in fall And summer. Juniors in spring and summer), single rooms, lots of testing and 90% of classes in person or hybrid.
Since SLACs are such a small percent of students, most students will learn 100% online, even if they live on campus. Some will get a class or two in person. A few— mostly in SLACs, are scheduled to get at least one semester with the majority of teaching online. But that could change at anytime, as it did in the spring. What then, deport students partway through.
It runs the gamit. And colleges in FL, AZ, etc may be saying everyone can come back, but that may not be realistic.
But what happen if and when a student who finds a college with in person classes has to go online because COVID spikes? The kid gets deported mid semester?
Single rooms (so no roommates), online classes, grab and go food, and no activities. Sounds like a joy! Totally willing to pay $25-75k/yr for that!
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:53
Subject: ICE announcement
Harvard and the CAL states are exclusively online. What other colleges have made this decision?
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:52
Subject: ICE announcement
Anonymous wrote:How many colleges are exclusively online?
I may have some school’s plans wrong. I’m not looking up every plan and plans are evolving. Bit I’ve been following because I have a college freshman.
Lots of Big State Us are teaching 100% online, but inviting some or all student back to campus. I think Michigan just announced this.
Many state Us are putting large electives on line, but having recitations in person. Purdue is doing this.
Many State Us are only letting limited students who must do hands on meet in person— sciences labs and hands on fine arts. If you major in politics, you will likely be entirely online in these schools. But many of the students at these school can live online. can live on campus.
At the flagship school for RI, you only get housing if you are OOS. In state is on their own for housing. Mix of on online and in person.
Harvard is letting freshmen come on campus in the fall and Seniors in the spring, but all classes on line. I think Princeton is also all online, tuition discount given. Yale is looking at getting everyone on in person.
Last I saw, UCs are moving to all classes online except specialties like nursing practicals and some senior lab students. The parallel CA State U system is online, most kids not welcome to live on campus.
SLACs are trying hard to get kids back and in live classes, but getting creative to get kids into single room and planning to test aggressively.. But some are only inviting a limited number of kids back (e.g. freshmen, seniors and lab sciences). Some are only inviting one class of kids at a time for short periods, like Grinnell. Some, like Oberlin, are moving to a trimester system (Freshmen and seniors in fall and spring. Sophomores in fall And summer. Juniors in spring and summer), single rooms, lots of testing and 90% of classes in person or hybrid.
Since SLACs are such a small percent of students, most students will learn 100% online, even if they live on campus. Some will get a class or two in person. A few— mostly in SLACs, are scheduled to get at least one semester with the majority of teaching online. But that could change at anytime, as it did in the spring. What then, deport students partway through.
It runs the gamit. And colleges in FL, AZ, etc may be saying everyone can come back, but that may not be realistic.
But what happen if and when a student who finds a college with in person classes has to go online because COVID spikes? The kid gets deported mid semester?
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:51
Subject: ICE announcement
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Have they provided *any* rationale for this, other than just being dickwipes?
Nope! Dickwipes indeed!
Isn't the rationale that this was essentially a pre-existing rule? That is, you can't get a visa to go to an online school. This is consistent with that approach but it is applying to high profile "good" schools, not the existing on-line only schools.
Doesn't make it any better, of course, but that seems to be the reasoning. Treat Harvard like U Phoenix.
And I don't think the quote above applies to hybrid schools that then shut down because of COVID. There, the student has the VISA and is properly enrolled then all shifts online. I don't think there is any guidance there, which is a big problem for those trying to make plans.
TO be clear, I think this sucks but I see the thought process.
1. NO it is not a preexisting rule.
2. Harvard is not Phoenix U ... but elitism aside, online Harvard is a different model than Phoenix U ... Harvard will have live lectures and discussions. Phoenix U generally does not.
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:47
Subject: Re:ICE announcement
There was also an article in the NY Times a couple weeks ago saying that flights to China were costing 3-4 times the usual cost which is already pretty high.
Many students cannot afford paying $7000-10,000 for one flight. I feel terrible for international students and their parents right now. What an absolutely horrible situation to be in.
Many students cannot afford paying $7000-10,000 for one flight. I feel terrible for international students and their parents right now. What an absolutely horrible situation to be in.
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:44
Subject: ICE announcement
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So, we now think it’s a good idea to force a few hundred thousand international students who are now in the US, a current covid hot spot, onto airplanes to scatter their germs around the world?
There may not even be flights to their home countries. What do they do then?
DP. Eventually we'll see some of those students end up arrested by ICE and put into detention facilities where there is spread of the virus. Like the many other immigrants in those facilities whose plight we seem no longer to recognize. I can only pray that their stories get out and are highly publicized everywhere.
+1. Those students who can’t be immediately deported to their home countries will be detained indefinitely by ICE. The virus will continue to spread in those detention facilities, and some students will die. It is inevitable.
If you support this policy, you also support the utterly avoidable deaths of those students. You can’t separate the two.
Oh sweet Jesus. Stop your overdramatic speculation. They are not going to detain, jail, and mark for death all students who have no flights available as a first line response. There are flights out of the country.
DP. There are flights out but do they go to every country? No. So people sit in detention.
It is not "overdramatic" to understand that if ICE is issuing a policy that students will be removed unless they remove themselves, those students will also be subject to arrest and detention and deportation. It's not dramatic to know that detention of any kind is a perfect environment for spreading any illness, especially a highly contagious one that we now know spreads through the air. You understand the workings of neither ICE nor viruses.
I suspect you think that detention and deportation are only for the lowest of the low, impoverished, illegal border-crossers. Because they deserve it, right?
Nope, detention is an equal opportunity problem. Students can and probably will end up there and end up sick.
Does everyone need a direct flight? There may not be a flight directly from JFK to everywhere, but the student can catch a connecting flight. You are making a lot of unnecessary assumptions about me that actually just make a statement about you, seeing as how I shared no information about myself or my beliefs. I fully support international students, but if they must leave, I believe they will be able to do so safely.
RE: the bold: You are extremely ill-informed. Go back and read the post at 10:26 responding to you. It is not as simple as "just get on a flight to your home country." The fact that you think it is, indicates you really need to go look at what 10:26 is saying.
And if you start posts with "Sweet Jesus stop your overdramatic speculation" you get posters making assumptions. It is not dramatic to know that ICE can and does arrest, detain and deport, and it is ignorant to be unaware that many people languish in detention and don't get popped onto convenient flights to countries waiting with open arms. Why think that students, if they end up in ICE's hands, will be treated with more consideration than anyone else? There are professionals with long histories of work and community service in the US who have been arrested, detained and deported (or just held) despite whole communities fighting to keep them here. Students won't be treated any better than those people have been.
Of course students will try to get out and get home on their own so they don't end up in the ICE system at all. But-- well, go read 10:26. Those students still may have difficulty getting to their home countries.
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:37
Subject: ICE announcement
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So, we now think it’s a good idea to force a few hundred thousand international students who are now in the US, a current covid hot spot, onto airplanes to scatter their germs around the world?
There may not even be flights to their home countries. What do they do then?
DP. Eventually we'll see some of those students end up arrested by ICE and put into detention facilities where there is spread of the virus. Like the many other immigrants in those facilities whose plight we seem no longer to recognize. I can only pray that their stories get out and are highly publicized everywhere.
+1. Those students who can’t be immediately deported to their home countries will be detained indefinitely by ICE. The virus will continue to spread in those detention facilities, and some students will die. It is inevitable.
If you support this policy, you also support the utterly avoidable deaths of those students. You can’t separate the two.
Oh sweet Jesus. Stop your overdramatic speculation. They are not going to detain, jail, and mark for death all students who have no flights available as a first line response. There are flights out of the country.
DP. There are flights out but do they go to every country? No. So people sit in detention.
It is not "overdramatic" to understand that if ICE is issuing a policy that students will be removed unless they remove themselves, those students will also be subject to arrest and detention and deportation. It's not dramatic to know that detention of any kind is a perfect environment for spreading any illness, especially a highly contagious one that we now know spreads through the air. You understand the workings of neither ICE nor viruses.
I suspect you think that detention and deportation are only for the lowest of the low, impoverished, illegal border-crossers. Because they deserve it, right?
Nope, detention is an equal opportunity problem. Students can and probably will end up there and end up sick.
Does everyone need a direct flight? There may not be a flight directly from JFK to everywhere, but the student can catch a connecting flight. You are making a lot of unnecessary assumptions about me that actually just make a statement about you, seeing as how I shared no information about myself or my beliefs. I fully support international students, but if they must leave, I believe they will be able to do so safely.
Pp, I don’t if you’re really this ignorant or just pretending. The airports IN MANY OF THEIR HOME COUNTRIES are closed. So, no, no airline is going to allow them to board a flight to Paris or Amsterdam or London when there is no flight to their home country. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Sure they can leave when the airports reopen, but you must acknowledge the difficulty this is putting students in. Do they sell their things or do they put them in storage? Do they give up on their student housing / rented apartments or keep them in case studies in person resume in spring? They would need to spend additional money on return tickets. And then again to come back and reestablish their living logistics. They are not tourists, these students had life established here and they are being thrown needlessly in turmoil. It’s one thing not to issue visas to new students whose universities will be teaching only online, but it’s a completely different ballgame kicking students out during a pandemic.
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:30
Subject: ICE announcement
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Have they provided *any* rationale for this, other than just being dickwipes?
Yes -- the whole point of the F-1 visa is to come to the US to study in a university. If you can no longer study _in_ the university, then there is no need to come to the US.
This is about students who are already here. They are being asked to leave in the midst of a pandemic.
+1. They came in good faith to learn in classrooms. When the pandemic is under control, they will go back to learning in classes. Many universities are trying to get some in person classes this fall. At Oberlin, I know the number is about 45% fully in person, 40% hybrid (class meets twice a week, and you attend live one day and attend remotely the other) and 12-15% online (older faculty with medical issues). But that’s the hope.
These students didn’t commit fraud. They didn’t get an in person student visa intending to go to a fully online school. COViD happened and everything changed. But not being flexible, the US is:
Being an a**hole country
Creating conditions where these kids may not have the ability to finish their degrees from their home country
Discouraging international students from applying in the future if crap like this can happen. And as a parent of a kid in college, I know we need these kids to hold tuition down (even if it is insane now) and because they add value to class discussions and residence halls when American kids who may have not grown up in the DMV are exposed to different cultures, religions, lifestyles. They broadens their education and prepares them for a global workplace.
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:29
Subject: ICE announcement
How many colleges are exclusively online?
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:28
Subject: ICE announcement
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So, we now think it’s a good idea to force a few hundred thousand international students who are now in the US, a current covid hot spot, onto airplanes to scatter their germs around the world?
There may not even be flights to their home countries. What do they do then?
DP. Eventually we'll see some of those students end up arrested by ICE and put into detention facilities where there is spread of the virus. Like the many other immigrants in those facilities whose plight we seem no longer to recognize. I can only pray that their stories get out and are highly publicized everywhere.
+1. Those students who can’t be immediately deported to their home countries will be detained indefinitely by ICE. The virus will continue to spread in those detention facilities, and some students will die. It is inevitable.
If you support this policy, you also support the utterly avoidable deaths of those students. You can’t separate the two.
Oh sweet Jesus. Stop your overdramatic speculation. They are not going to detain, jail, and mark for death all students who have no flights available as a first line response. There are flights out of the country.
DP. There are flights out but do they go to every country? No. So people sit in detention.
It is not "overdramatic" to understand that if ICE is issuing a policy that students will be removed unless they remove themselves, those students will also be subject to arrest and detention and deportation. It's not dramatic to know that detention of any kind is a perfect environment for spreading any illness, especially a highly contagious one that we now know spreads through the air. You understand the workings of neither ICE nor viruses.
I suspect you think that detention and deportation are only for the lowest of the low, impoverished, illegal border-crossers. Because they deserve it, right?
Nope, detention is an equal opportunity problem. Students can and probably will end up there and end up sick.
Does everyone need a direct flight? There may not be a flight directly from JFK to everywhere, but the student can catch a connecting flight. You are making a lot of unnecessary assumptions about me that actually just make a statement about you, seeing as how I shared no information about myself or my beliefs. I fully support international students, but if they must leave, I believe they will be able to do so safely.
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:26
Subject: ICE announcement
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So, we now think it’s a good idea to force a few hundred thousand international students who are now in the US, a current covid hot spot, onto airplanes to scatter their germs around the world?
There may not even be flights to their home countries. What do they do then?
DP. Eventually we'll see some of those students end up arrested by ICE and put into detention facilities where there is spread of the virus. Like the many other immigrants in those facilities whose plight we seem no longer to recognize. I can only pray that their stories get out and are highly publicized everywhere.
+1. Those students who can’t be immediately deported to their home countries will be detained indefinitely by ICE. The virus will continue to spread in those detention facilities, and some students will die. It is inevitable.
If you support this policy, you also support the utterly avoidable deaths of those students. You can’t separate the two.
Oh sweet Jesus. Stop your overdramatic speculation. They are not going to detain, jail, and mark for death all students who have no flights available as a first line response. There are flights out of the country.
Many airports are still closed pp with limited evacuation / repatriation flights. I hope your 18 or 19 year old child is not stuck some day in a foreign country that changed his status to illegal post fact and is put in a situation of scrambling to find a way back home. Look at this map and see how many countries still have their airports closed:
https://www.iatatravelcentre.com/international-travel-document-news/1580226297.htm?pub=autodetect
The universities and the host country have responsibility towards these students and may be you don’t see it this way, but how the US as a whole (including universities, ICE and so on) treats their foreign students will have a reputational impact on the US. If the US doesn’t want foreign students, then change policies and stop accepting them and they will go elsewhere, but treating students who are already in the country like $*** (and this is what it’s called pulling their visas during a pandemic no less after they came into the country).
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:23
Subject: Re:ICE announcement
Anonymous wrote:The Trumpers on this thread remind me of the types who think UVa should be almost all instate kids. Those dummies fail to realize that if that happens, it won’t be nearly as coveted a University.
And it will cost twice as much.
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:23
Subject: ICE announcement
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So, we now think it’s a good idea to force a few hundred thousand international students who are now in the US, a current covid hot spot, onto airplanes to scatter their germs around the world?
There may not even be flights to their home countries. What do they do then?
DP. Eventually we'll see some of those students end up arrested by ICE and put into detention facilities where there is spread of the virus. Like the many other immigrants in those facilities whose plight we seem no longer to recognize. I can only pray that their stories get out and are highly publicized everywhere.
+1. Those students who can’t be immediately deported to their home countries will be detained indefinitely by ICE. The virus will continue to spread in those detention facilities, and some students will die. It is inevitable.
If you support this policy, you also support the utterly avoidable deaths of those students. You can’t separate the two.
Oh sweet Jesus. Stop your overdramatic speculation. They are not going to detain, jail, and mark for death all students who have no flights available as a first line response. There are flights out of the country.
DP. There are flights out but do they go to every country? No. So people sit in detention.
It is not "overdramatic" to understand that if ICE is issuing a policy that students will be removed unless they remove themselves, those students will also be subject to arrest and detention and deportation. It's not dramatic to know that detention of any kind is a perfect environment for spreading any illness, especially a highly contagious one that we now know spreads through the air. You understand the workings of neither ICE nor viruses.
I suspect you think that detention and deportation are only for the lowest of the low, impoverished, illegal border-crossers. Because they deserve it, right?
Nope, detention is an equal opportunity problem. Students can and probably will end up there and end up sick.
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:22
Subject: ICE announcement
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:A lot of internationals are “full pay” and SLACs, in particular, rely on that $. We all saw this coming. Are you living under a rock? Our American rising seniors will not have to compete with that sector, but many SLACs may go under.
That so many international students are full pay means they'll have no problem with access to internet or computers in their home county. These are not impoverished students living in a shack without running water.
Universities have already been planning for a steep drop in enrollment. US-based students are taking gap years or going to community college so they don't have to pay the high fees for a distance-learning only environment.
Just because someone is full pay doesn't mean they have access to the internet from their home country. You realize, someone could be a coal heir in West Virginia and not have internet access at home, right?
We went to visit my in-laws in rural GA. We make 300k. My in-laws aren’t wealthy, but have enough in retirement to gift both of my kids $10k a year for undergrad. No cell service at their home from any provider. They are landline only. Very weak and spotty internet. We were essentially cut off for the week, hoping we could get email downloaded once a day. And this is Georgia, USA, UMC people.
Just because the UMC has great reliable internet in the DMV does not mean it is available all over the IS— and certainly not all over the world.
Anonymous
07/07/2020 10:15
Subject: ICE announcement
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Have they provided *any* rationale for this, other than just being dickwipes?
Nope! Dickwipes indeed!
Isn't the rationale that this was essentially a pre-existing rule? That is, you can't get a visa to go to an online school. This is consistent with that approach but it is applying to high profile "good" schools, not the existing on-line only schools.
Doesn't make it any better, of course, but that seems to be the reasoning. Treat Harvard like U Phoenix.
And I don't think the quote above applies to hybrid schools that then shut down because of COVID. There, the student has the VISA and is properly enrolled then all shifts online. I don't think there is any guidance there, which is a big problem for those trying to make plans.
TO be clear, I think this sucks but I see the thought process.
But Harvard is Phoenix U. And forcing colleges to open up when they don’t they can do so safely during a once in a century pandemic to offer something in person for foreign kids is ridiculous. Normal people see that colleges are pushing to get back to in person as fast as possible. But in some places, at some schools, it’s not possible to do this safely.
You clearly have a gripe against brilliant (way more prepared than US kids) international students.
*Harvard is not Phoenix U*. And just the opposite. Re-read. I think school should make accommodations like a one credit class to help students stay. But that it’s ridiculous for Trumpworld to force Universities to do this during a pandemic when it may not be possible to do it safely. IOW, the Trump Admin should get it’s head out of its ass and leave these kids alone. They are forcing a workaround, and the workaround will make people less safe.