Anonymous
07/02/2020 15:53
Subject: NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
What kind of childcare? Provided by who? Why is that a “men step up” issue? What do you want me, a man who is not the CEO and has no great power or control in my company, to step up and do?
Pre-COVID: Who schedules doctor appointments and takes the kids in your house? Who monitors the kids homework and all the paperwork that comes home from school? Who researches, selects, registers, and arranges transportation for the kids to get summer camp every year?
Post-COVID: Who is responsible for providing childcare during the days the kids aren't at school?
"Stepping up" means don't leave it all for the mom to make it work. Pre-COVID moms did the vast majority of this work but they largely were able to balance it with paid work. That isn't possible post-COVID and it means for most dual income families, that someone is going to have to sacrifice. It shouldn't always be the mom.
And before you default to "well, my job pays more", you should take a second to appreciate that many women are paid less because they do the vast majority of the unpaid work and the gender pay gap itself is tied to parental leave (in countries with equitable parental leave policies, the gender pay gap closes).
This isn’t just a wage gap issue. My husband makes less than half what I do and yet still refuses to acknowledge the looming child care issue for next fall or take steps to request accommodations with his office, partly because he’s convinced « something will work out ». In the meantime I am scrambling to rearrange my work schedule and considering requesting to temporarily reduce my work hours [for an accompanying reduction in pay]. I know many would say this a husband problem, and believe me I have tried to tell him he needs to step up but absent divorce not sure what more I can do. For better or worse I think this situation is often the norm for husband/wife partnerships regardless of the wage distribution and the fact that my husband’s (military) supervisory chain basically assumes his wife will handle any child care issues definitely doesn’t help.
This is PP. I did not mean that it was a wage issue, but that wage differences are often used as an excuse to continue foisting childcare responsibilities onto women. Also the irony that women being responsible for childcare in the first place results in wage differences.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 15:41
Subject: Re:NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We know a family where the grandparents, parents and kids all live in one household. They are the ones who have been able to continue without the issue of childcare because there are 4 adults to two kids. Parents work in IT and medical field. Both grandparents had prestigious careers too before retiring. Before COVID they had outsourced cleaning etc, so I am sure that cooking, cleaning and laundry is not easier than before COVID.
Perhaps we should think not of women opting out of workplace but recognizing that multigenerational households have some positives for working parents. We are too screwed as a planet and species to now worry about the cons of joint families.
+1 My parents are moving in with us next month. Multigenerational household makes sense to us right now and we are looking forward to it.
It's great that you are able to get that sort of help. Just don't start arguing for DL now because you have vulnerable people in your household. Not everybody has parents who are able or willing to do this. Multigenerational households are a double-edged sword in times of Covid.
Yeah, you should only have your elderly parents move in if you are committed to quarantining heavily and doing distance learning. Otherwise you are just using them and might kill them.
I realize we are extremely lucky. We actually made these plans before COVID so it was more a right time situation and are not "using them." They are relatively young (under 65) and healthy and we are already heavily quarantining because DH has diabetes. We aren't arguing at all for DL and we all agree that in person is an acceptable risk with precautions. It's not for everyone and I realize a lot of families can't do this right now, but we have tons of local friends who have tapped in grandparents so I'm not sure why all living together is any higher risk than that.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 15:39
Subject: NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.
No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.
Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.
Do you realize that you are completely reinforcing the point of the article? Working parents are being rolled over and considered nonessential.
We are very financially fortunate and have also made choices to not pick a lifestyle that has golden handcuffs. We could afford DH (high earner) to scale back and survive on both our incomes (or just mine if we stopped saving). I work because I am a better mom and more fulfilled person when I work. That is a valid choice which is being devalued by the response to this pandemic.
Not every family can afford to have a SAHP and not every family wants a SAHP. There should be choice on both sides. You don’t know what is better for all families.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 15:36
Subject: NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So true. Woman will be set back by this for sure.
or men will finally step up.
And do what? They have precisely the dilemma described in the article - they need to send their kids to school and they need to go back to work - and the article did not propose any solutions.
It is idiotic to make this a men vs women problem, because it isn’t.
Women disproportionally do the vast bulk of childcare in this country.
SO. WHAT.
You’re totally missing the point.
WHAT DO YOU WANT MEN TO DO?
More childcare? Isn't that obvious? What are you missing here?
What kind of childcare? Provided by who? Why is that a “men step up” issue? What do you want me, a man who is not the CEO and has no great power or control in my company, to step up and do?
Pre-COVID: Who schedules doctor appointments and takes the kids in your house? Who monitors the kids homework and all the paperwork that comes home from school? Who researches, selects, registers, and arranges transportation for the kids to get summer camp every year?
Post-COVID: Who is responsible for providing childcare during the days the kids aren't at school?
"Stepping up" means don't leave it all for the mom to make it work. Pre-COVID moms did the vast majority of this work but they largely were able to balance it with paid work. That isn't possible post-COVID and it means for most dual income families, that someone is going to have to sacrifice. It shouldn't always be the mom.
And before you default to "well, my job pays more", you should take a second to appreciate that many women are paid less because they do the vast majority of the unpaid work and the gender pay gap itself is tied to parental leave (in countries with equitable parental leave policies, the gender pay gap closes).
This isn’t just a wage gap issue. My husband makes less than half what I do and yet still refuses to acknowledge the looming child care issue for next fall or take steps to request accommodations with his office, partly because he’s convinced « something will work out ». In the meantime I am scrambling to rearrange my work schedule and considering requesting to temporarily reduce my work hours [for an accompanying reduction in pay]. I know many would say this a husband problem, and believe me I have tried to tell him he needs to step up but absent divorce not sure what more I can do. For better or worse I think this situation is often the norm for husband/wife partnerships regardless of the wage distribution and the fact that my husband’s (military) supervisory chain basically assumes his wife will handle any child care issues definitely doesn’t help.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 15:17
Subject: NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.
Which family values?
We live in the society that does not value families. If we did there would be a much better social safety net
family values to instill:
#1 - Teach our kids to help others. Rather than spend all our money and time on extracurriculars, working to afford huge houses, etc., donate time and resources to families in need. Open our homes to help single mothers. Prepare extra food for families who don't have time. The first step is for you to teach your children to value family and become a social safety net.
This is really rich, because single mothers are suffering terribly right now.
And also shows how out of touch you are because most dual-income parents are not working for the reasons you profess. But keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel special. Bye bye.
Those with resources are the ones that are supposed to be helping those you're mentioning. But keep making excuses about why YOU aren't able to help anyone else and just complain about lack of social safety nets. People want fixes but aren't willing to sacrifice to help. It's unfortunate. There is absolutely no reason for people to live in mil $ homes, spend thousands on club teams then complain about how hard it would be to live on one income. I know plenty of families making sacrifices to have a parent stay home pre-covid.
My parents made a lot of sacrifices to raise us on one modest income. But no, not luxury sacrifices like you seem to think- real ones, like any appreciable retirement savings (also no college savings but we all made it through and paid back our loans). As a result, my dad worked through his mid-70s when his body couldn’t take it anymore, and my salary supports them. Because social security and Medicare alone are not enough.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 14:56
Subject: NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.
No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.
Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.
If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.
They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.
But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.
I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.
We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?
And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.
We are a dual income family of 5 living in a 1300sq TH. I'm not complaining because we have one parent who works from home and can monitor our ES aged kids on the days they're home. But acting like we could magically downsize or move Grandma into a non-existent spare bedroom is pretty hilarious.
You chose to have three kids, right?
Sure, Karen, I'll downsize a kid.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 14:54
Subject: NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.
No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.
Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.
If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.
They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.
But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.
I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.
We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?
And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.
We are a dual income family of 5 living in a 1300sq TH. I'm not complaining because we have one parent who works from home and can monitor our ES aged kids on the days they're home. But acting like we could magically downsize or move Grandma into a non-existent spare bedroom is pretty hilarious.
You chose to have three kids, right?
Well this thread devolved quickly. Good job you, I'm sure you'll weather this pandemic just fine and am not sure why you are even here.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 14:49
Subject: NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.
No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.
Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.
If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.
They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.
But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.
I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.
We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?
And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.
We are a dual income family of 5 living in a 1300sq TH. I'm not complaining because we have one parent who works from home and can monitor our ES aged kids on the days they're home. But acting like we could magically downsize or move Grandma into a non-existent spare bedroom is pretty hilarious.
You chose to have three kids, right?
Anonymous
07/02/2020 14:48
Subject: NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.
No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.
Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.
If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.
I follow the real estate forums closely. I saw so many families maxing out their mortgages on $1.2 - $1.8 million homes in McLean. Homes they could only afford so long as both incomes totaling $300K - $400K kept rolling in.
Now the schools they were all gushing over are closed for 10-12 months and they’re screwed. Can’t quit because mortgage and can’t hire help because they stretched in the first place.
Golden handcuffs.
DCUM real estate forums are not equivalent to even a representative number of families in the area, let alone a representative number of families nationwide. Do not mistake anecdata for actual stats.
Jeez.
Honestly that PP sounds very ignorant, and not worth engaging.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 14:33
Subject: NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.
No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.
Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.
If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.
They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.
But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.
I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.
We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?
And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.
We are a dual income family of 5 living in a 1300sq TH. I'm not complaining because we have one parent who works from home and can monitor our ES aged kids on the days they're home. But acting like we could magically downsize or move Grandma into a non-existent spare bedroom is pretty hilarious.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 14:27
Subject: NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.
No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.
Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.
If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.
They can downsize. Rent an apartment to live in and rent out the SFH. The rent from the SFH might not entirely offset the lost second income, but it is better than nothing. We’re currently looking for a 3 br, 2 BA SFH in 20910 and am struggling to find a place under $2200/mo. Many places are going for $3-5000/mo. They should rent in Western MD or some other COLA for a year and things will probably be much better by then.
But stop crying over things that poor families have always faced.
I am a dual-income familiy IN A RENTAL. We have never been able to afford a SFH.
We cannot give up the second job. Something would have to give. Here, I'll let you choose. Should we give up health insurance, the rent, or our groceries?
And before you start screaming about luxuries: we have one smartphone and one 10-year-old car between three people. Our last vacation was in 2015.
I'm so sorry you're struggling. I wish I could help organize small pods made up of those in your situation, along with more fortunate families, to help you out during this rough time. I wish more families would reach out and help where they can. I'm putting the word out here in my area, and I encourage those on this board that are lucky enough to do so in their areas too. That is if they'll be honest with themselves and make the sacrifices to allow them to help.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 14:24
Subject: Re:NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We know a family where the grandparents, parents and kids all live in one household. They are the ones who have been able to continue without the issue of childcare because there are 4 adults to two kids. Parents work in IT and medical field. Both grandparents had prestigious careers too before retiring. Before COVID they had outsourced cleaning etc, so I am sure that cooking, cleaning and laundry is not easier than before COVID.
Perhaps we should think not of women opting out of workplace but recognizing that multigenerational households have some positives for working parents. We are too screwed as a planet and species to now worry about the cons of joint families.
+1 My parents are moving in with us next month. Multigenerational household makes sense to us right now and we are looking forward to it.
I hope you are going to commit to distance learning and not socializing with anyone outside your household. Otherwise, you are putting your parents at risk.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 14:23
Subject: NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.
Which family values?
We live in the society that does not value families. If we did there would be a much better social safety net
family values to instill:
#1 - Teach our kids to help others. Rather than spend all our money and time on extracurriculars, working to afford huge houses, etc., donate time and resources to families in need. Open our homes to help single mothers. Prepare extra food for families who don't have time. The first step is for you to teach your children to value family and become a social safety net.
This is really rich, because single mothers are suffering terribly right now.
And also shows how out of touch you are because most dual-income parents are not working for the reasons you profess. But keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel special. Bye bye.
Those with resources are the ones that are supposed to be helping those you're mentioning. But keep making excuses about why YOU aren't able to help anyone else and just complain about lack of social safety nets. People want fixes but aren't willing to sacrifice to help. It's unfortunate. There is absolutely no reason for people to live in mil $ homes, spend thousands on club teams then complain about how hard it would be to live on one income. I know plenty of families making sacrifices to have a parent stay home pre-covid.
1. You don't know anything about PP's level of volunteerism.
2. Volunteerism cannot ever compensate for lack of a comprehensive, nationwide social safety net.
3. Dual-income families, with rare exceptions, HAVE TO BE DUAL-INCOME to afford a home, food, and healthcare. Not luxuries. The basics.
Do you think anything is going to fix this overnight? Instead of complaining, teach your children the value of bolded and maybe they'll grow up with ideas about how to enact a comprehensive, nationwide social net.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 14:22
Subject: Re:NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:We know a family where the grandparents, parents and kids all live in one household. They are the ones who have been able to continue without the issue of childcare because there are 4 adults to two kids. Parents work in IT and medical field. Both grandparents had prestigious careers too before retiring. Before COVID they had outsourced cleaning etc, so I am sure that cooking, cleaning and laundry is not easier than before COVID.
Perhaps we should think not of women opting out of workplace but recognizing that multigenerational households have some positives for working parents. We are too screwed as a planet and species to now worry about the cons of joint families.
+1 My parents are moving in with us next month. Multigenerational household makes sense to us right now and we are looking forward to it.
It's great that you are able to get that sort of help. Just don't start arguing for DL now because you have vulnerable people in your household. Not everybody has parents who are able or willing to do this. Multigenerational households are a double-edged sword in times of Covid.
Yeah, you should only have your elderly parents move in if you are committed to quarantining heavily and doing distance learning. Otherwise you are just using them and might kill them.
Anonymous
07/02/2020 14:17
Subject: NYT: In the Covid-19 Economy, You Can Have a Kid or a Job. You Can’t Have Both.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Unpopular opinion, I know. But maybe having more parents at home will bring back family values.
No, if anything, a lot of marriages are going through unprecedented stress right now and probably won't make it or will be dealing with the negative consequences for years.
Yes, it's so sad too. They're trying to maintain pre-covid lives and it's causing unneeded stress. If only they could downsize, simplify and enjoy what they have.
If only they could downsize (= happily lose their job and health insurance, and give up those pesky mortgage and grocery payments) and enjoy what they have, everything would be rosy.
I follow the real estate forums closely. I saw so many families maxing out their mortgages on $1.2 - $1.8 million homes in McLean. Homes they could only afford so long as both incomes totaling $300K - $400K kept rolling in.
Now the schools they were all gushing over are closed for 10-12 months and they’re screwed. Can’t quit because mortgage and can’t hire help because they stretched in the first place.
Golden handcuffs.
DCUM real estate forums are not equivalent to even a representative number of families in the area, let alone a representative number of families nationwide. Do not mistake anecdata for actual stats.
Jeez.
And yet...there's nothing untrue about that statement.
And yet it's entirely useless as an argument about what parents in general (not wealthy parents on a small website) should do, because that website is not representative. Stories do not equal data.
In your next life, pay attention in class.