Anonymous
01/06/2020 17:10
Subject: United Methodist Church schism
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Well, I thought it would come to this and it has. The UMC will split into two denominations with the UMC maintaining the reconciling ministry allowing LGBT clergy and allowing clergy to perform gay marriages.
A new "traditional Methodist" denomination will spin off that will follow the traditional plan that was voted on last year and set to be implemented starting yesterday that would bar clergy from conducting gay marriages and ordaining gay clergy.
I really think it is for the best. Much like this country, the UMC has been sharply divided and polarized by this difference in opinion with predominantly the non-US churches wanting to follow the traditional plan and about 3/4 of the American churches that wanted to continue with the former policies. The non-US churches and the smaller demographic of conservative US churches will spin off.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/01/03/united-methodist-church-is-expected-split-over-gay-marriage-disagreement-fracturing-nations-third-largest-denomination/
I remember when this happened to the Episcopalians. I would not be opposed to it in my own faith, Catholicism, if it mean that my daughter did not have to leave to marry the woman she loves some day.
Your daughter can marry legally in a court of law. The Catholic sacrament of marriage is between a man and woman. There are sacraments that not everyone gets — the sacrament of ordination, as an obvious example. Your daughter doesn’t have to leave Catholicism over it.
Are you from the DC area? I’ve had friends be asked to leave the Catholic Church or not take communion (this was me)over the fact that they weren’t married in the church. You’re kidding yourself if you think Catholics would allow them to attend.
I’m in Maryland. I wasn’t married in Catholic Church and no one’s asked me to leave or denied me communion. I’m not LGBT, to clarify, I was just married by a judge to a non-Catholic.
I’m a catholic married to a non catholic and was told in a letter either not to attend or to attend and not take communion (dh never took communion but I even gave confession still). . This was last year. My dh is very religious and had no issue attending, tithing, sending our kids to catholic schools but drew the line at RCIA or saying new vows.. They sent the letter when I had a baby I wanted baptized. I remember crying for weeks over it. This was in the Arlington diocese.
That's interesting. i had the opposite experience in the Arlington diocese. i was not married in the catholic church, but had both of my kids baptized in 2 different diocese of arlington churches -- most recent being 3 years ago. neither told me not to take communion. (Although my husband and I did later do the sacrament of marriage.) i think it depends on the church.
Anonymous
01/06/2020 14:40
Subject: Re:United Methodist Church schism
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would they subject their kids to such dated, slow changing, backwards institutions like a conservative organized religions? These places are lost in time.
I mean look at the Catholics...it is doctrine that females cant even hold positions of leadership. I am going to immerse my little girls in that? why?
Women and men have different roles; it doesn’t mean women’s roles are any less important. I am a woman, the breadwinner for my family, and a practicing and faithful Catholic who will raise my boys AND girls Catholic.
Luckily, you're in the minority and by the time your kids grow up, maybe they won't be catholic anymore or will have trouble finding a nearby Catholic church to indoctrinate your grandchildren
I may be in the minority in the US, but it’s a big world out there, most of which does not agree that women can have penises and all the other nonsense liberals are currently embracing.
Most of the world also does not agree that only clergy should have penises and that they cannot be used for procreation.
Anonymous
01/06/2020 14:37
Subject: Re:United Methodist Church schism
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would they subject their kids to such dated, slow changing, backwards institutions like a conservative organized religions? These places are lost in time.
I mean look at the Catholics...it is doctrine that females cant even hold positions of leadership. I am going to immerse my little girls in that? why?
Women and men have different roles; it doesn’t mean women’s roles are any less important. I am a woman, the breadwinner for my family, and a practicing and faithful Catholic who will raise my boys AND girls Catholic.
Luckily, you're in the minority and by the time your kids grow up, maybe they won't be catholic anymore or will have trouble finding a nearby Catholic church to indoctrinate your grandchildren
I may be in the minority in the US, but it’s a big world out there, most of which does not agree that women can have penises and all the other nonsense liberals are currently embracing.
What the Catholic Church does not seem to get is that you don't need a penis to hold positions of leadership, responsibility, power and prestige
Plus it's a penis that is allowed to be used for only one of its intended functions - urination.
Anonymous
01/06/2020 13:11
Subject: United Methodist Church schism
Anonymous wrote:I was raised in the United Methodist church, but I haven’t been attending as much lately. In the past, I think the Methodist church was tolerant and accepting of people with different sexual orientation in the congregation but they were not permitted leadership roles in the denomination. However, there has been a movement to change from tolerating to embracing alternative lifestyles within the church that is “a bridge too far” for many United Methodists who were taught to be tolerant of differences but not celebrate and flaunt them as a desirable way of being.
OP here. I'm amused by the several tangents that have come out of the thread, but it's nice to see people talking nicely (mostly) to each other about religion. Religion has always been a volatile topic, but it seems to be even moreso in the current very divisive atmosphere.
Yes, the Methodist church has always been tolerant. And I think most of the reconciling ministries that are out there would be fine with continuing as things were with some churches holding a more tolerant attitude and some holding a more conservative attitude. Each church allowed to worship as they see fit. The problem is that the conservative faction pushed for the highly restrictive Traditional Plan that would require all of the churches to adhere to the very intolerant conservative practices. They are the ones that forced the issue by upsetting the compromise.
Not allowing gay parishioners to join the clergy, not allowing churches to perform gay marriages and even penalizing clergy who perform gay marriages is really the "bridge too far" practice. It's the conservatives who decided to go with the nuclear option and to have the have these restrictions codified in the Book of Discipline with very draconian penalties for violations.
So, as you say, many UMC members have been taught to be tolerant of differences but not celebrate or flaunt them. And yet, the Traditional Plan has essentially codified an intolerance of differences. I, myself, am not gay, but am in an interracial marriage. I have been in churches where the congregations are unwelcoming to "people like us" and I fully embrace and appreciate our church for their welcoming attitude. Neither our gay clergy member or our gay members flaunt their sexual orientation. And the only celebration we have about sexual orientation is that they are welcome to our church. As one of our clergy says, our table is open to any and everyone who wishes to share the word of the Lord and the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the attitude and behavior that I approve of and want to be a part of. I admire and respect our one gay minister as much as the rest of our ministers. I appreciate and am happy for our gay members who participate in the church and are waiting to be married this Fall (assuming that they are allowed to marry in the church). I don't make a big issue about gay rights, but I want them welcomed and accepted for who they are. I spent enough of my life as a minority who was never fully tolerated to know how much that attitude hurts and would not want anyone to feel that. I would hope that over 50 years of civil rights have taught us to treat others equally, but as far as we have come, it seems we still have oh, so far to go.
Anonymous
01/06/2020 08:28
Subject: Re:United Methodist Church schism
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would they subject their kids to such dated, slow changing, backwards institutions like a conservative organized religions? These places are lost in time.
I mean look at the Catholics...it is doctrine that females cant even hold positions of leadership. I am going to immerse my little girls in that? why?
Women and men have different roles; it doesn’t mean women’s roles are any less important. I am a woman, the breadwinner for my family, and a practicing and faithful Catholic who will raise my boys AND girls Catholic.
Luckily, you're in the minority and by the time your kids grow up, maybe they won't be catholic anymore or will have trouble finding a nearby Catholic church to indoctrinate your grandchildren
I may be in the minority in the US, but it’s a big world out there, most of which does not agree that women can have penises and all the other nonsense liberals are currently embracing.
What the Catholic Church does not seem to get is that you don't need a penis to hold positions of leadership, responsibility, power and prestige
Anonymous
01/06/2020 08:11
Subject: Re:United Methodist Church schism
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would they subject their kids to such dated, slow changing, backwards institutions like a conservative organized religions? These places are lost in time.
I mean look at the Catholics...it is doctrine that females cant even hold positions of leadership. I am going to immerse my little girls in that? why?
Women and men have different roles; it doesn’t mean women’s roles are any less important. I am a woman, the breadwinner for my family, and a practicing and faithful Catholic who will raise my boys AND girls Catholic.
Luckily, you're in the minority and by the time your kids grow up, maybe they won't be catholic anymore or will have trouble finding a nearby Catholic church to indoctrinate your grandchildren
I may be in the minority in the US, but it’s a big world out there, most of which does not agree that women can have penises and all the other nonsense liberals are currently embracing.
Anonymous
01/05/2020 23:01
Subject: Re:United Methodist Church schism
I have had the opportunity to attend different churches over the years as a resident of several different cities. The one with the largest gay congregation was by far the most actively engaged in following Christ's example of loving their brother's and sisters...very large and active soup kitchen serving hundreds of hungry people three times a week every single week and a homeless shelter as well as many other ministries. Wonderful place. I was so sorry to have to leave it when moving. That church was and is doing God's work all day, every day.
Anonymous
01/05/2020 22:59
Subject: Re:United Methodist Church schism
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would they subject their kids to such dated, slow changing, backwards institutions like a conservative organized religions? These places are lost in time.
I mean look at the Catholics...it is doctrine that females cant even hold positions of leadership. I am going to immerse my little girls in that? why?
Women and men have different roles; it doesn’t mean women’s roles are any less important. I am a woman, the breadwinner for my family, and a practicing and faithful Catholic who will raise my boys AND girls Catholic.
Luckily, you're in the minority and by the time your kids grow up, maybe they won't be catholic anymore or will have trouble finding a nearby Catholic church to indoctrinate your grandchildren
Anonymous
01/05/2020 22:56
Subject: Re:United Methodist Church schism
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I wonder what the future holds for the UMC. If they go the route of Episcopal churches, then it will be a slow death. Is liberalism the death of many mainline Protestant churches? I see so many beautiful and historical churches with empty seats. It seems like many mainline Christian denominations are loosing membership besides their converts in Africa and in Asia. However, mega conservative churches and prosperity preaching churches are growing like weeds all over the country.
I began witnessing the division of the UMC 22 years ago. I am just surprised that it took this long for a schism to occur.
I think it will follow the trend of the divided Presbyterians — the conservative PCA is thriving while the liberal PCUSA is losing members.
I am in a liberal Presbyterian church that is absolutely thriving.
I assume you’re in this area? This super-liberal area is not representative.
I am now in the Midwest, actually.
Where, exactly? You know you’re not representative.
In a state that went for Donald Trump. I actually think my church's model of being very inclusive is the exact model to bring people back to church. People are seeking us out who live an hour away. The model is relentlessly positive and thoughtful. I feel every week like I've gone to a great college lecture on the history of Christianity. Gay families are welcomed wholeheartedly, as are foster families and families with kids with all kinds of special needs, from mild to severe. Their are unique special needs worship services that are shorter and more interactive for the group homes in our area.
Our church is almost 200 years old, and so there's a lot of old guard Presbyterians there. A few left when the session decided to be purposely inclusive (the churches are run by its members, not the Pastor) but more came. So you'll see in our pews a lot of white haired folks sitting next to a gay family with biracial foster children and another couple with the son on the ASD spectrum who was never welcomed at other churches because he was too "noisy."
I think this is what Jesus would have wanted.
Statistics are hard, I know, but I’m not sure why you seem to think that the existence of YOUR church negates or counters the sharp downward trend of mainline Protestantism.
Yes but it's millennials who are leaving organized religion. You're not getting them back by offering anti-gay, any-woman conservative churches.
This, however, might be a way to get them back.
They’ll come back once they grow up and have kids and have the overdue realization that relativist secularism is bankrupt. And if not their loss.
Is "reativist secularism" a fancy term for people who don't go to church anymore?
Anonymous
01/05/2020 22:50
Subject: United Methodist Church schism
Anonymous wrote:I was raised in the United Methodist church, but I haven’t been attending as much lately. In the past, I think the Methodist church was tolerant and accepting of people with different sexual orientation in the congregation but they were not permitted leadership roles in the denomination. However, there has been a movement to change from tolerating to embracing alternative lifestyles within the church that is “a bridge too far” for many United Methodists who were taught to be tolerant of differences but not celebrate and flaunt them as a desirable way of being.
So they can be less than, second-class, marginalized citizens in your church. Charming, and so Christlike!
Anonymous
01/05/2020 22:34
Subject: United Methodist Church schism
I was raised in the United Methodist church, but I haven’t been attending as much lately. In the past, I think the Methodist church was tolerant and accepting of people with different sexual orientation in the congregation but they were not permitted leadership roles in the denomination. However, there has been a movement to change from tolerating to embracing alternative lifestyles within the church that is “a bridge too far” for many United Methodists who were taught to be tolerant of differences but not celebrate and flaunt them as a desirable way of being.
Anonymous
01/05/2020 22:22
Subject: Re:United Methodist Church schism
Anonymous wrote:^^^ to change
I don't think any of these Catholics feel "bad" because the theology is out of step with modern life and advances. They just focus on the theology that is useful and productive and beneficial to themselves, their families and to other others.
And I know conservative Catholics very focused on issues like abortion that I can not appreciate at all.
The groups seem to just coexist by gravitating towards different parishes as best I can tell.
Anonymous
01/05/2020 22:14
Subject: Re:United Methodist Church schism
^^^ to change
Anonymous
01/05/2020 22:14
Subject: Re:United Methodist Church schism
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Inherent to the entire structure of the Catholic church is that women are not equal to men. Different is fine, lesser and unequal is not fine.
This Catholic disagrees. In any event, time will tell whether the Methodists who adopt your liberal positions survive in any meaningful way.
Surely you know that many millions of Catholics use birth control, millions of Catholics are gay and have terminated pregnancies. You still likely call these sins but millions and millions of Catholics just think the church is hopelessly behind the times and will perhaps catch up one day. Some abandon going to church regulatory or giving a lot of money etc.
It is not a monolith at all dn there are some very very progressive parishes out here.
So what? Use all the birth control you want, but don’t expect the Church to celebrate it. That’s what you don’t seem to get. We are all sinners by I’m not demanding the theology to chance to make myself feel good.
Anonymous
01/05/2020 21:58
Subject: Re:United Methodist Church schism
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Inherent to the entire structure of the Catholic church is that women are not equal to men. Different is fine, lesser and unequal is not fine.
This Catholic disagrees. In any event, time will tell whether the Methodists who adopt your liberal positions survive in any meaningful way.
Surely you know that many millions of Catholics use birth control, millions of Catholics are gay and have terminated pregnancies. You still likely call these sins but millions and millions of Catholics just think the church is hopelessly behind the times and will perhaps catch up one day. Some abandon going to church regulatory or giving a lot of money etc.
It is not a monolith at all dn there are some very very progressive parishes out here.