Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what? More students in DC public could hit the cut-off, or score higher, if we had GT ES programs, test in middle schools and more serious application high schools. No more excuses, thanks.

Maybe. But as was stated upthread, the test favors prolific readers. You don’t need a special GT ES program for that. But there is a limit to how many can get to the finalist round. It is a zero sum game and would have to be achieved by outpacing the private school kids.

So there is only 1 prolific reader at Basis? Only 1 at Latin? People say all the time how the majority of white students in DC are gifted. Why aren't there more semifinalists? There isn't something saying DC can only have 10 semifinalists or something -- it's a numerical cutoff.

I see 2 obvious, and serious, problems.

Problem #1: The reality is that most of the strongest DC public students have left the system by junior year in HS, when the PSAT is given. Without GT programming lower down the chain, or a strong commitment to supporting advanced humanities learners even in the highest-performing programs (Walls, Wilson, Latin, BASIS), a dearth of students of semifinalists is predictable. The clues aren't hard to find. English lit instruction, and facilities, at BASIS is sub-par. Honors for All at Wilson is watering down standards. Latin won't track in MS although a good many students arrive working below grade level. Walls' admissions process isn't transparent. Etc.

Problem #2: College counseling is weak or mediocre across the board in DC public. BASIS parents like to rave about the counseling their children receive, but we're mired in relativism in DC public. The BASIS counselors aren't as well-trained or experienced as those in top privates and suburban magnet problems. Latin's counselors don't tend to encourage students to aim high. Walls and Wilson don't hire nearly enough counselors.

What happens is that the potential semifinalists left in DC public schools by 11th grade don't take the PSAT because they aren't encouraged to, or don't prep adequately if they do take it for the same reason (at least to familiarize themselves with the format).

If that's the case then they've left the District period. The semifinalists at the DC privates are overwhelmingly from Maryland and Virginia. Only about 1, sometimes 2 per school are actual District residents. The rest come from across the entire DMV.

As to why? I don't know. I know my bright NWDC kids (two in DCPS, one is a top private) don't read much for fun and never have. Very, very few of their friends do either. They're all too busy playing travel sports, school sports, instruments, other extracurriculars, you-tubing, tik-tocking, instagramming, etc. Rarely if ever are they just sitting on a couch for hours just reading books.

In contrast I literally spent my ENTIRE CHILDHOOD READING. I read thousands of books by high school graduation. My kids will have read a small fraction of this. I have friends with kids in other areas of the country whose kids have much quieter lives than mine do. They spend a good deal more time at home and a good deal more time reading. None of the frenzy of 10 million activities, travel soccer practices and constant social events of my NWDC kids. I bet this is reflected in the PSAT scores. That or my kids (and the rest of us District residents) are just dumber. That could be it too.

To 8:42 — have you been on the College or MCPS boards lately?

Their college counseling ratios are on par with Wilson with counselors having more than 200 students each. No one is getting anything close to personalized in that scenario and the percentage of students attending selective colleges is not much greater than SWW or BASIS. Of course they have a strong in-state flagship which we do not.

Adding to the rest of your analysis - which I agree with - parents also leave DC toward the upper grades for affordable and solid in-state college options. No amount of GT or test-in options will fix that. DC TAG tries to, but the grant amount has not kept pace with college costs and it must be funded each year, adding uncertainty.

dearth of students of semifinalist caliber

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what? More students in DC public could hit the cut-off, or score higher, if we had GT ES programs, test in middle schools and more serious application high schools. No more excuses, thanks.

Maybe. But as was stated upthread, the test favors prolific readers. You don’t need a special GT ES program for that. But there is a limit to how many can get to the finalist round. It is a zero sum game and would have to be achieved by outpacing the private school kids.

So there is only 1 prolific reader at Basis? Only 1 at Latin? People say all the time how the majority of white students in DC are gifted. Why aren't there more semifinalists? There isn't something saying DC can only have 10 semifinalists or something -- it's a numerical cutoff.

I see 2 obvious, and serious, problems.

Problem #1: The reality is that most of the strongest DC public students have left the system by junior year in HS, when the PSAT is given. Without GT programming lower down the chain, or a strong commitment to supporting advanced humanities learners even in the highest-performing programs (Walls, Wilson, Latin, BASIS), a dearth of students of semifinalists is predictable. The clues aren't hard to find. English lit instruction, and facilities, at BASIS is sub-par. Honors for All at Wilson is watering down standards. Latin won't track in MS although a good many students arrive working below grade level. Walls' admissions process isn't transparent. Etc.

Problem #2: College counseling is weak or mediocre across the board in DC public. BASIS parents like to rave about the counseling their children receive, but we're mired in relativism in DC public. The BASIS counselors aren't as well-trained or experienced as those in top privates and suburban magnet problems. Latin's counselors don't tend to encourage students to aim high. Walls and Wilson don't hire nearly enough counselors.

What happens is that the potential semifinalists left in DC public schools by 11th grade don't take the PSAT because they aren't encouraged to, or don't prep adequately if they do take it for the same reason (at least to familiarize themselves with the format).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what? More students in DC public could hit the cut-off, or score higher, if we had GT ES programs, test in middle schools and more serious application high schools. No more excuses, thanks.

Maybe. But as was stated upthread, the test favors prolific readers. You don’t need a special GT ES program for that. But there is a limit to how many can get to the finalist round. It is a zero sum game and would have to be achieved by outpacing the private school kids.

So there is only 1 prolific reader at Basis? Only 1 at Latin? People say all the time how the majority of white students in DC are gifted. Why aren't there more semifinalists? There isn't something saying DC can only have 10 semifinalists or something -- it's a numerical cutoff.

Yes, and there is only 1 prolific reader DC resident at NCS (my child is there and only one of the semifinalists lives in DC) and only 1 prolific DC resident at GDS (again, only one lives in DC).
Why are there not more high scoring DC residents at those schools either?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what? More students in DC public could hit the cut-off, or score higher, if we had GT ES programs, test in middle schools and more serious application high schools. No more excuses, thanks.

Maybe. But as was stated upthread, the test favors prolific readers. You don’t need a special GT ES program for that. But there is a limit to how many can get to the finalist round. It is a zero sum game and would have to be achieved by outpacing the private school kids.

So there is only 1 prolific reader at Basis? Only 1 at Latin? People say all the time how the majority of white students in DC are gifted. Why aren't there more semifinalists? There isn't something saying DC can only have 10 semifinalists or something -- it's a numerical cutoff.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what? More students in DC public could hit the cut-off, or score higher, if we had GT ES programs, test in middle schools and more serious application high schools. No more excuses, thanks.

Nope. It would still be about .05%.

Huh? The vast majority of DC semifinalists attend independent schools. PP is arguing that the public system could produce more semifinalists if it bothered to try, not that the overall number would change.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what? More students in DC public could hit the cut-off, or score higher, if we had GT ES programs, test in middle schools and more serious application high schools. No more excuses, thanks.

Nope. It would still be about .05%.

Actually DC gets a higher number: 1%. In all other states it is .5%

Actually we are both wrong: https://www.compassprep.com/national-merit-semifinalists-by-state/

your link is from 2015. the percentages change every year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what? More students in DC public could hit the cut-off, or score higher, if we had GT ES programs, test in middle schools and more serious application high schools. No more excuses, thanks.

Nope. It would still be about .05%.

Actually DC gets a higher number: 1%. In all other states it is .5%

Actually we are both wrong: https://www.compassprep.com/national-merit-semifinalists-by-state/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what? More students in DC public could hit the cut-off, or score higher, if we had GT ES programs, test in middle schools and more serious application high schools. No more excuses, thanks.

Nope. It would still be about .05%.

Actually DC gets a higher number: 1%. In all other states it is .5%

Anonymous wrote:So what? More students in DC public could hit the cut-off, or score higher, if we had GT ES programs, test in middle schools and more serious application high schools. No more excuses, thanks.

Nope. It would still be about .05%.

That's what happens in Boston, NYC and Chicago - wealthy parents fighting to get their kids not into pricey privates but into academically superior public schools. These programs are packed with high-performing Asian immigrants and their children. What a dream.

Anonymous wrote:So what? More students in DC public could hit the cut-off, or score higher, if we had GT ES programs, test in middle schools and more serious application high schools. No more excuses, thanks.

Maybe. But as was stated upthread, the test favors prolific readers. You don’t need a special GT ES program for that. But there is a limit to how many can get to the finalist round. It is a zero sum game and would have to be achieved by outpacing the private school kids.

So what? More students in DC public could hit the cut-off, or score higher, if we had GT ES programs, test in middle schools and more serious application high schools. No more excuses, thanks.

NJ, MA and DC are the highest in country at 223.