Tons of Americans care about securing our borders.

Which Democrat candidate (out of the 2 dozen+) has put forth a platform to secure our border?

Assuming that either of you is being sincere - what would turn you from voting from Clinton to voting for Trump? I am asking this sincerely. To me he is an unmitigated disaster, a wannabe Duterte-type without the smarts to actually be Duterte. What is the appeal to someone who previously didn't fall for his strong man schtick?

(Please don't say illegals or wall.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So to make sure I understand this right: you are blaming Obama for the fact that Trump and his Republicans in the House and Senate failed to take up immigration in any real, substantive way while they held control of the WH and both houses?

No, I am blaming Obama and Dems for the fact that they betrayed immigrants. They promised one thing, and delivered the opposite -- Mr. Deporter-in-Chief broke millions of families and the media gave him a free pass, making the bad worse.

Some other PP blamed both parties (rightly so) for not working hard enough to solve the issue.

While you are trying to not answer the question posted above -- would you support a merit-based system like Canada's?

I am the PP you are responding to. I am a tried and true Democrat. I also once wrote a published white paper about our immigration system being dysfunctional and broken. I would welcome changes that make the system fairer, more manageable, and give people more certain ways to come and stay here. I'm fine with that being skills based if it means we can get rid of this insane system that is currently full of uncertainty and incentivizes lawbreaking. Our current system, as you and I and everyone can see, is broken.

I think there are reasons why this is unlikely to happen. A big one is that we are in horrible times when we can't even really talk about immigration without dividing into our partisan corners. There's zero trust between the sides - and zero incentives for compromise or cooperation. But yes, I would favor a system that was clear, fair, easy, manageable, had standards and rules that could be followed and understood, and that promoted social cohesion and harmony. I'm open to a variety of fixes. Skills based immigration seems like one system that could work.

Now a question for you: Are you pissed that Trump and his Republicans didn't take the opportunity to *actually* get into immigration reform while they had control over every body of government? They didn't even hold hearings, or draft any bills that they could hold up as embodying their ideas. They did nothing.

Thank you very much for the thoughtful response. I couldn't agree more with the bolded (and with most of what you wrote).

Happy to answer your questions, but let me start by saying that I did not vote for Trump in 2016 -- may well do so in 2020, as I generally think the country is in better shape now than in 2016.

I am sad, but not pissed or disappointed, that Trump/ GOP didn't prioritize immigration reform while they had both houses. Why? Because they never promised they would.

On the contrary, I was gladly surprised when Trump proposed a quite sensible plan in 2018 (path to citizenship for close to 3 million in exchange for Wall funding and a move towards a merit-based system), and then pissed and disappointed when Dems refused to even consider it (it was clear that some Republicans would never vote for it, so the vote had to be bipartisan).

DP

Wanted to chime in that I feel the same way as you. Voted for Hillary last time and will likely vote for Trump in 2020.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that the Democrats have no desire to resolve the challenges relating to immigration.

They think it would be politically advantageous to let it fester and use it against the Republicans. If they really wanted to come up with legislation they could have done so in 2009 when they had commanding leads in the Senate and the House as well as the presidency. They did nothing and the Hispanic lobby was very upset at the time that nothing was done.

I ask this sincerely, though I understand it sounds like snark: Do you remember in 2016 when Republicans were in charge of the WH, the House, and the Senate? Why do you think it is that they did not engage in a good faith, substantive effort to overhaul the immigration system then?

I'm not asking you why you don't like Democrats. I am asking why you think Republicans declined the opportunity to take up this effort when they had the ability to do it.

Because that was NOT one of their campaign promises. They promised tax reform....and delivered it. They promised a conservative in the SC...and delivered it.

Obama promised immigration reform in his first year....and he didn't deliver it.

Actually he didn't even move a finger until he had lost both the Senate and the House so it was obvious he couldn't do anything serious and lasting.

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. They ABSOLUTELY ran on immigration. Furthermore, you're being disingenuous when you say Democrats have "no desire to resolve immigration." They have plans and proposals. They are at odds with teh GOP's. But instead of, you know, legislating like used to happen, the Senate is just stonewalling. (Just in general, the House has passed something like 100 bills that the Senate has not touched. I don't call that governing.)

Obama had "both houses" for a fleeting period of time. FAR LESS than what Trump had. And he did nothing but show how inept he was as passing a budget.

So, it's fair to say you don't agree with how the Democrats approach immigration. It's a lie to say they don't care, have no proposals. You just want what you want with no compromise. Just like trump and the Senate. And that's not governing. There are two houses of Congress.

You remind me of a playground bully.

Grow up and learn how to have an intelligent debate.

Will simply point out the obvious -- Trump ran on PREVENTING immigration (ever heard of the Wall?), not on passing an immigration reform that would legalize millions of immigrants.

Fyi, I do not agree with his ideas on this, but I can recognize that's what he promised.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So to make sure I understand this right: you are blaming Obama for the fact that Trump and his Republicans in the House and Senate failed to take up immigration in any real, substantive way while they held control of the WH and both houses?

No, I am blaming Obama and Dems for the fact that they betrayed immigrants. They promised one thing, and delivered the opposite -- Mr. Deporter-in-Chief broke millions of families and the media gave him a free pass, making the bad worse.

Some other PP blamed both parties (rightly so) for not working hard enough to solve the issue.

While you are trying to not answer the question posted above -- would you support a merit-based system like Canada's?

I am the PP you are responding to. I am a tried and true Democrat. I also once wrote a published white paper about our immigration system being dysfunctional and broken. I would welcome changes that make the system fairer, more manageable, and give people more certain ways to come and stay here. I'm fine with that being skills based if it means we can get rid of this insane system that is currently full of uncertainty and incentivizes lawbreaking. Our current system, as you and I and everyone can see, is broken.

I think there are reasons why this is unlikely to happen. A big one is that we are in horrible times when we can't even really talk about immigration without dividing into our partisan corners. There's zero trust between the sides - and zero incentives for compromise or cooperation. But yes, I would favor a system that was clear, fair, easy, manageable, had standards and rules that could be followed and understood, and that promoted social cohesion and harmony. I'm open to a variety of fixes. Skills based immigration seems like one system that could work.

Now a question for you: Are you pissed that Trump and his Republicans didn't take the opportunity to *actually* get into immigration reform while they had control over every body of government? They didn't even hold hearings, or draft any bills that they could hold up as embodying their ideas. They did nothing.

Thank you very much for the thoughtful response. I couldn't agree more with the bolded (and with most of what you wrote).

Happy to answer your questions, but let me start by saying that I did not vote for Trump in 2016 -- may well do so in 2020, as I generally think the country is in better shape now than in 2016.

I am sad, but not pissed or disappointed, that Trump/ GOP didn't prioritize immigration reform while they had both houses. Why? Because they never promised they would.

On the contrary, I was gladly surprised when Trump proposed a quite sensible plan in 2018 (path to citizenship for close to 3 million in exchange for Wall funding and a move towards a merit-based system), and then pissed and disappointed when Dems refused to even consider it (it was clear that some Republicans would never vote for it, so the vote had to be bipartisan).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that the Democrats have no desire to resolve the challenges relating to immigration.

They think it would be politically advantageous to let it fester and use it against the Republicans. If they really wanted to come up with legislation they could have done so in 2009 when they had commanding leads in the Senate and the House as well as the presidency. They did nothing and the Hispanic lobby was very upset at the time that nothing was done.

I ask this sincerely, though I understand it sounds like snark: Do you remember in 2016 when Republicans were in charge of the WH, the House, and the Senate? Why do you think it is that they did not engage in a good faith, substantive effort to overhaul the immigration system then?

I'm not asking you why you don't like Democrats. I am asking why you think Republicans declined the opportunity to take up this effort when they had the ability to do it.

Because that was NOT one of their campaign promises. They promised tax reform....and delivered it. They promised a conservative in the SC...and delivered it.

Obama promised immigration reform in his first year....and he didn't deliver it.

Actually he didn't even move a finger until he had lost both the Senate and the House so it was obvious he couldn't do anything serious and lasting.

Now you're just embarrassing yourself. They ABSOLUTELY ran on immigration. Furthermore, you're being disingenuous when you say Democrats have "no desire to resolve immigration." They have plans and proposals. They are at odds with teh GOP's. But instead of, you know, legislating like used to happen, the Senate is just stonewalling. (Just in general, the House has passed something like 100 bills that the Senate has not touched. I don't call that governing.)

Obama had "both houses" for a fleeting period of time. FAR LESS than what Trump had. And he did nothing but show how inept he was as passing a budget.

So, it's fair to say you don't agree with how the Democrats approach immigration. It's a lie to say they don't care, have no proposals. You just want what you want with no compromise. Just like trump and the Senate. And that's not governing. There are two houses of Congress.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So to make sure I understand this right: you are blaming Obama for the fact that Trump and his Republicans in the House and Senate failed to take up immigration in any real, substantive way while they held control of the WH and both houses?

No, I am blaming Obama and Dems for the fact that they betrayed immigrants. They promised one thing, and delivered the opposite -- Mr. Deporter-in-Chief broke millions of families and the media gave him a free pass, making the bad worse.

Some other PP blamed both parties (rightly so) for not working hard enough to solve the issue.

While you are trying to not answer the question posted above -- would you support a merit-based system like Canada's?

I am the PP you are responding to. I am a tried and true Democrat. I also once wrote a published white paper about our immigration system being dysfunctional and broken. I would welcome changes that make the system fairer, more manageable, and give people more certain ways to come and stay here. I'm fine with that being skills based if it means we can get rid of this insane system that is currently full of uncertainty and incentivizes lawbreaking. Our current system, as you and I and everyone can see, is broken.

I think there are reasons why this is unlikely to happen. A big one is that we are in horrible times when we can't even really talk about immigration without dividing into our partisan corners. There's zero trust between the sides - and zero incentives for compromise or cooperation. But yes, I would favor a system that was clear, fair, easy, manageable, had standards and rules that could be followed and understood, and that promoted social cohesion and harmony. I'm open to a variety of fixes. Skills based immigration seems like one system that could work.

Now a question for you: Are you pissed that Trump and his Republicans didn't take the opportunity to *actually* get into immigration reform while they had control over every body of government? They didn't even hold hearings, or draft any bills that they could hold up as embodying their ideas. They did nothing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that the Democrats have no desire to resolve the challenges relating to immigration.

They think it would be politically advantageous to let it fester and use it against the Republicans. If they really wanted to come up with legislation they could have done so in 2009 when they had commanding leads in the Senate and the House as well as the presidency. They did nothing and the Hispanic lobby was very upset at the time that nothing was done.

I ask this sincerely, though I understand it sounds like snark: Do you remember in 2016 when Republicans were in charge of the WH, the House, and the Senate? Why do you think it is that they did not engage in a good faith, substantive effort to overhaul the immigration system then?

I'm not asking you why you don't like Democrats. I am asking why you think Republicans declined the opportunity to take up this effort when they had the ability to do it.

Both parties are guilty, this is why congress has such low approval ratings. Trump did try to push for immigration related action - remember the travel bans, how well did that work out? Remember negotiating for DACA amnesty in exchange for border wall? How did that go? Even though Republicans had majorities in congress, it was not enough of a majority to get this legislation through. The debate kept getting side tracked with the "family separation" and "children in cages" issues. Congress took no action because it had gotten used to taking no action, instead leaving it up to the executive branch to practice overreach, and waiting for the Judiciary to do a smack-down. This is not the right way to govern. It is the responsibility of congress to legislate, to establish and amend our laws that regulate the functions of our society.

This is perhaps the one area of the US government that really has me depressed because I just don't see how congress can find it within itself to take back the power that it so willingly gave away in the past century.

The travel bans were supposed to be about national security, not immigration. Immigration generally refers to developing a body of law and regulations that govern the legal entry into the United States, and then the ways that someone can remain here and for how long. That generally includes those who came into the US illegally at some point but have now been here for a long time. But not short term travel bans, or what to do about those trying to cross the border illegally now.

+1.

Trump promised more security, via the travel ban and the destruction of ISIS, and he has delivered both.

He also promised the Wall and, fortunately IMO, he hasn't delivered on it.

Anonymous wrote:So to make sure I understand this right: you are blaming Obama for the fact that Trump and his Republicans in the House and Senate failed to take up immigration in any real, substantive way while they held control of the WH and both houses?

No, I am blaming Obama and Dems for the fact that they betrayed immigrants. They promised one thing, and delivered the opposite -- Mr. Deporter-in-Chief broke millions of families and the media gave him a free pass, making the bad worse.

Some other PP blamed both parties (rightly so) for not working hard enough to solve the issue.

While you are trying to not answer the question posted above -- would you support a merit-based system like Canada's?

So to make sure I understand this right: you are blaming Obama for the fact that Trump and his Republicans in the House and Senate failed to take up immigration in any real, substantive way while they held control of the WH and both houses?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that the Democrats have no desire to resolve the challenges relating to immigration.

They think it would be politically advantageous to let it fester and use it against the Republicans. If they really wanted to come up with legislation they could have done so in 2009 when they had commanding leads in the Senate and the House as well as the presidency. They did nothing and the Hispanic lobby was very upset at the time that nothing was done.

I ask this sincerely, though I understand it sounds like snark: Do you remember in 2016 when Republicans were in charge of the WH, the House, and the Senate? Why do you think it is that they did not engage in a good faith, substantive effort to overhaul the immigration system then?

I'm not asking you why you don't like Democrats. I am asking why you think Republicans declined the opportunity to take up this effort when they had the ability to do it.

Both parties are guilty, this is why congress has such low approval ratings. Trump did try to push for immigration related action - remember the travel bans, how well did that work out? Remember negotiating for DACA amnesty in exchange for border wall? How did that go? Even though Republicans had majorities in congress, it was not enough of a majority to get this legislation through. The debate kept getting side tracked with the "family separation" and "children in cages" issues. Congress took no action because it had gotten used to taking no action, instead leaving it up to the executive branch to practice overreach, and waiting for the Judiciary to do a smack-down. This is not the right way to govern. It is the responsibility of congress to legislate, to establish and amend our laws that regulate the functions of our society.

This is perhaps the one area of the US government that really has me depressed because I just don't see how congress can find it within itself to take back the power that it so willingly gave away in the past century.

Agreed. There should be plenty of space for a workable solution (what Trump proposed in 2017 was very reasonable) but I don't see either party taking a brave lead. They just prefer to kick the hot potato.

Some relevant history here:

"Univision anchor Jorge Ramos held Obama accountable for a promise the former Illinois senator made during his 2008 bid for office, when he said, “I can guarantee that we will have, in the first year, an immigration bill that I strongly support.”

“I want to emphasize ‘the first year,’ ” Ramos said. “At the beginning of your governing, you had control of both chambers of Congress, and yet you did not introduce immigration reform. And before I continue, I want for you to acknowledge that you did not keep your promise.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/obamas-failed-promise-of-a-first-year-immigration-overhaul/2012/09/25/06997958-0721-11e2-a10c-fa5a255a9258_blog.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that the Democrats have no desire to resolve the challenges relating to immigration.

They think it would be politically advantageous to let it fester and use it against the Republicans. If they really wanted to come up with legislation they could have done so in 2009 when they had commanding leads in the Senate and the House as well as the presidency. They did nothing and the Hispanic lobby was very upset at the time that nothing was done.

I ask this sincerely, though I understand it sounds like snark: Do you remember in 2016 when Republicans were in charge of the WH, the House, and the Senate? Why do you think it is that they did not engage in a good faith, substantive effort to overhaul the immigration system then?

I'm not asking you why you don't like Democrats. I am asking why you think Republicans declined the opportunity to take up this effort when they had the ability to do it.

Both parties are guilty, this is why congress has such low approval ratings. Trump did try to push for immigration related action - remember the travel bans, how well did that work out? Remember negotiating for DACA amnesty in exchange for border wall? How did that go? Even though Republicans had majorities in congress, it was not enough of a majority to get this legislation through. The debate kept getting side tracked with the "family separation" and "children in cages" issues. Congress took no action because it had gotten used to taking no action, instead leaving it up to the executive branch to practice overreach, and waiting for the Judiciary to do a smack-down. This is not the right way to govern. It is the responsibility of congress to legislate, to establish and amend our laws that regulate the functions of our society.

This is perhaps the one area of the US government that really has me depressed because I just don't see how congress can find it within itself to take back the power that it so willingly gave away in the past century.

The travel bans were supposed to be about national security, not immigration. Immigration generally refers to developing a body of law and regulations that govern the legal entry into the United States, and then the ways that someone can remain here and for how long. That generally includes those who came into the US illegally at some point but have now been here for a long time. But not short term travel bans, or what to do about those trying to cross the border illegally now.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that the Democrats have no desire to resolve the challenges relating to immigration.

They think it would be politically advantageous to let it fester and use it against the Republicans. If they really wanted to come up with legislation they could have done so in 2009 when they had commanding leads in the Senate and the House as well as the presidency. They did nothing and the Hispanic lobby was very upset at the time that nothing was done.

I ask this sincerely, though I understand it sounds like snark: Do you remember in 2016 when Republicans were in charge of the WH, the House, and the Senate? Why do you think it is that they did not engage in a good faith, substantive effort to overhaul the immigration system then?

I'm not asking you why you don't like Democrats. I am asking why you think Republicans declined the opportunity to take up this effort when they had the ability to do it.

Because that was NOT one of their campaign promises. They promised tax reform....and delivered it. They promised a conservative in the SC...and delivered it.

Obama promised immigration reform in his first year....and he didn't deliver it.

Actually he didn't even move a finger until he had lost both the Senate and the House so it was obvious he couldn't do anything serious and lasting.

Huh - I remember immigration being one of the top things that Trump ran on. Am I remembering that wrong? Or you think he was ONLY talking about the wall and deportations - nothing else?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that the Democrats have no desire to resolve the challenges relating to immigration.

They think it would be politically advantageous to let it fester and use it against the Republicans. If they really wanted to come up with legislation they could have done so in 2009 when they had commanding leads in the Senate and the House as well as the presidency. They did nothing and the Hispanic lobby was very upset at the time that nothing was done.

I ask this sincerely, though I understand it sounds like snark: Do you remember in 2016 when Republicans were in charge of the WH, the House, and the Senate? Why do you think it is that they did not engage in a good faith, substantive effort to overhaul the immigration system then?

I'm not asking you why you don't like Democrats. I am asking why you think Republicans declined the opportunity to take up this effort when they had the ability to do it.

Both parties are guilty, this is why congress has such low approval ratings. Trump did try to push for immigration related action - remember the travel bans, how well did that work out? Remember negotiating for DACA amnesty in exchange for border wall? How did that go? Even though Republicans had majorities in congress, it was not enough of a majority to get this legislation through. The debate kept getting side tracked with the "family separation" and "children in cages" issues. Congress took no action because it had gotten used to taking no action, instead leaving it up to the executive branch to practice overreach, and waiting for the Judiciary to do a smack-down. This is not the right way to govern. It is the responsibility of congress to legislate, to establish and amend our laws that regulate the functions of our society.

This is perhaps the one area of the US government that really has me depressed because I just don't see how congress can find it within itself to take back the power that it so willingly gave away in the past century.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is that the Democrats have no desire to resolve the challenges relating to immigration.

They think it would be politically advantageous to let it fester and use it against the Republicans. If they really wanted to come up with legislation they could have done so in 2009 when they had commanding leads in the Senate and the House as well as the presidency. They did nothing and the Hispanic lobby was very upset at the time that nothing was done.

I ask this sincerely, though I understand it sounds like snark: Do you remember in 2016 when Republicans were in charge of the WH, the House, and the Senate? Why do you think it is that they did not engage in a good faith, substantive effort to overhaul the immigration system then?

I'm not asking you why you don't like Democrats. I am asking why you think Republicans declined the opportunity to take up this effort when they had the ability to do it.

Because that was NOT one of their campaign promises. They promised tax reform....and delivered it. They promised a conservative in the SC...and delivered it.

Obama promised immigration reform in his first year....and he didn't deliver it.

Actually he didn't even move a finger until he had lost both the Senate and the House so it was obvious he couldn't do anything serious and lasting.

LOL didn't Trump run in 2016 on fixing our immigration problems and securing our borders?

WTF are you talking about. The GOP completely ran on immigration in 2016. Are you legit insane?