Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since most pelvic floor damage occurs during pregnancy itself, I guess women should just stop having babies altogether.

Citation for that unsubstantiated generalization?

Anonymous wrote:Since most pelvic floor damage occurs during pregnancy itself, I guess women should just stop having babies altogether.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Glad to see we’ve drawn the attention away from c sections to vaginal birth.

Part of the reason women get shamed and judged so much for having a c section is because there is a total lack of understanding they vaginal birth has downsides.

The way nature intended it is now wrong.

This is the most idiotic thing I’ve ever read. “Downsides”? Do you mean complications? I don’t think anyone is that stupid around here to not realize vaginal delivery sometimes needs intervention.. We all know that sometimes modern medicine is needed, and thank goodness for that.

No I mean permanent life altering injuries that leave women with fistulas, permanently incontinent, etc. Mother Nature is not exactly kind—disease is “natural” too and we still treat it.

http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/03/birth-the-way-nature-intended-it-to-be.html

Oh my gosh. Life-altering birth injuries are exceedingly rare. As is death from c-section, but it’s definitely a risk. Absolutely everything in life carries risks. You are fear-mongering.

No, not at all rare. Instead of just making Unsubstantiated comments, Read the previous links to studies showing incidence of birth injuries from nature’s “perfect” method of vaginal birth is FAR higher than previously understood and most people are aware of. Sorry this doesn’t fit the “c sections are awful and vaginal birth is best” narrative you are trying to push. Don’t mansplain or minimize women’s injuries.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Glad to see we’ve drawn the attention away from c sections to vaginal birth.

Part of the reason women get shamed and judged so much for having a c section is because there is a total lack of understanding they vaginal birth has downsides.

The way nature intended it is now wrong.

This is the most idiotic thing I’ve ever read. “Downsides”? Do you mean complications? I don’t think anyone is that stupid around here to not realize vaginal delivery sometimes needs intervention.. We all know that sometimes modern medicine is needed, and thank goodness for that.

No I mean permanent life altering injuries that leave women with fistulas, permanently incontinent, etc. Mother Nature is not exactly kind—disease is “natural” too and we still treat it.

http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/03/birth-the-way-nature-intended-it-to-be.html

Oh my gosh. Life-altering birth injuries are exceedingly rare. As is death from c-section, but it’s definitely a risk. Absolutely everything in life carries risks. You are fear-mongering.

No, not at all rare. Instead of just making Unsubstantiated comments, Read the previous links to studies showing incidence of birth injuries from nature’s “perfect” method of vaginal birth is FAR higher than previously understood and most people are aware of. Sorry this doesn’t fit the “c sections are awful and vaginal birth is best” narrative you are trying to push. Don’t mansplain or minimize women’s injuries.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Glad to see we’ve drawn the attention away from c sections to vaginal birth.

Part of the reason women get shamed and judged so much for having a c section is because there is a total lack of understanding they vaginal birth has downsides.

The way nature intended it is now wrong.

This is the most idiotic thing I’ve ever read. “Downsides”? Do you mean complications? I don’t think anyone is that stupid around here to not realize vaginal delivery sometimes needs intervention.. We all know that sometimes modern medicine is needed, and thank goodness for that.

No I mean permanent life altering injuries that leave women with fistulas, permanently incontinent, etc. Mother Nature is not exactly kind—disease is “natural” too and we still treat it.

http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/03/birth-the-way-nature-intended-it-to-be.html

Oh my gosh. Life-altering birth injuries are exceedingly rare. As is death from c-section, but it’s definitely a risk. Absolutely everything in life carries risks. You are fear-mongering.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Glad to see we’ve drawn the attention away from c sections to vaginal birth.

Part of the reason women get shamed and judged so much for having a c section is because there is a total lack of understanding they vaginal birth has downsides.

The way nature intended it is now wrong.

This is the most idiotic thing I’ve ever read. “Downsides”? Do you mean complications? I don’t think anyone is that stupid around here to not realize vaginal delivery sometimes needs intervention.. We all know that sometimes modern medicine is needed, and thank goodness for that.

No I mean permanent life altering injuries that leave women with fistulas, permanently incontinent, etc. Mother Nature is not exactly kind—disease is “natural” too and we still treat it.

http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/03/birth-the-way-nature-intended-it-to-be.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Glad to see we’ve drawn the attention away from c sections to vaginal birth.

Part of the reason women get shamed and judged so much for having a c section is because there is a total lack of understanding they vaginal birth has downsides.

The way nature intended it is now wrong.

This is the most idiotic thing I’ve ever read. “Downsides”? Do you mean complications? I don’t think anyone is that stupid around here to not realize vaginal delivery sometimes needs intervention.. We all know that sometimes modern medicine is needed, and thank goodness for that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Glad to see we’ve drawn the attention away from c sections to vaginal birth.

Part of the reason women get shamed and judged so much for having a c section is because there is a total lack of understanding they vaginal birth has downsides.

Anonymous wrote:Glad to see we’ve drawn the attention away from c sections to vaginal birth.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition to this, how about a natural birth awareness month where we can talk about all the ways your vagina, bladder, rectum, and pelvis can be destroyed by vaginal birth. We can talk about chronic/permanent fissures, cystocele, rectocele, uterine prolapse, urinary incontinence, flatal incontinence, fecal incontinence, vaginal laxity, scar tissue, levator avulsion, broken tailbones, coccydynia, tears to the anal sphincter, hypertonic pelvic floors, etc.

What sort of misogynistic culture are we to think that somehow vaginal birth is somehow superior to c section? Human Birth is a crappy evolutionary compromise (the massive human head has to come out of a tiny opening on the bottom of the female torso, from the same part that is also tasked with holding our inside pelvic organs up, maintaining our continence and sexual function, absorbing impact, etc.) that women can pay dearly for. The idea of natural being “better” when it results in so much damage to women is insulting.

Well vaginal birth doesn't come with its own set of potentially life-threatening risks, except infection if you have a severe tear (which the majority of women do not). So there's that.

Uh, preeclampsia? Placental abruption? Shoulder dystocia? Postpartum hemorrhage? Placenta previa? Pretty sure those are life threatening. Also—a lot of the aforementioned conditions caused by vaginal birth result in surgery to fix the issue (ie hysterectomy, mesh repairs, sacrocolpopexy, mesh bladder slings, sacral nerve stimulators, etc) which are a whole hell of a lot riskier than a planned c section and fail pretty often. There is a cost to all forms of birth.

Well, preeclampsia, abruption, hemorrhage, and previa can all happen AS PART OF PREGNANCY. These are not unique to vagina birth. Dystocia is also not unheard of in c section delivery. Hysterectomy, bowel and bladder perforation, etc. are also not unheard of in c section.

This isn’t a competition.

Here’s the thing... most c section parents are already dealing with a complication or they wouldn’t be having a c section. Baby is coming out of an area created not by nature, but by surgery.

Oh STFU. Anyone who has studied this understands that Mother Nature made a massive compromise in human birth. Human heads are utterly massive when compared to primates. The pelvic anatomy and musculature of primates are hugely different. Their pelvises have room to spare and primates can give birth quickly and easily. In contrast, the levator hiatus of a primiparous woman is 15 cm square and has to undergo a puborectalis muscle stretch to over 90 cm to deliver a fetal head. In about half of all women, this is successful. In the other half, there is levator ani damage, up to and including full avulsion of the muscle from the bone - which is basically the pelvic floor version of a full Achilles tear. That injury results in all sorts of problems for women that I mentioned previously. Yet OBs are not taught pelvic floor anatomy in med school and don’t have any clue how to look for this injury, and are largely taught that these injuries are just part of what happens when you have a baby.

I am all for awareness—of the risks of all delivery modes.

How about awareness of your grasp on facts and figures? Half of women do not suffer levator injuries.

Really? Research says the opposite. Since virtually 100 percent of OBs are not looking for this injury and do not know how to assess for it, it goes routinely undiagnosed. The sad fact is that biologically we were not meant to have our first babies at age 30, 35, and 40. There is a cost for being AMA at first delivery, and women pay dearly for it.

“In about half of all women after vaginal childbirth, there is substantial alteration of functional anatomy affecting the puborectalis component of the levator ani muscle.”

https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ajo.12059

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is such a sad thread. Women need to wake up. This isn't about choice - we don't have good choices when we're giving birth. The awareness should be about questioning the status quo, questioning the medical establishment's assumption that c-section is always a safe alternative to vaginal birth when it's not, or that medical practitioners are doing everything they can to prevent them. Or the HUGE assumption that the way labor is managed is totally safe and effective, and which leaves women feeling like they had the power to prevent a c-section, because modern medicine couldn't possibly have been wrong. Stop blaming women! Stop perpetuating this misogyny and start questioning what you're being told.

But... YOU seem to be blaming women: "women need to wake up!" No. If c-sections are a public health issue, then doctors and medical schools should be tackling it. Don't make it about individual women questioning and doubting their healthcare providers during a very vulnerable time.

What do you mean "if"?!?!?
Of course it's a public health crisis.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition to this, how about a natural birth awareness month where we can talk about all the ways your vagina, bladder, rectum, and pelvis can be destroyed by vaginal birth. We can talk about chronic/permanent fissures, cystocele, rectocele, uterine prolapse, urinary incontinence, flatal incontinence, fecal incontinence, vaginal laxity, scar tissue, levator avulsion, broken tailbones, coccydynia, tears to the anal sphincter, hypertonic pelvic floors, etc.

What sort of misogynistic culture are we to think that somehow vaginal birth is somehow superior to c section? Human Birth is a crappy evolutionary compromise (the massive human head has to come out of a tiny opening on the bottom of the female torso, from the same part that is also tasked with holding our inside pelvic organs up, maintaining our continence and sexual function, absorbing impact, etc.) that women can pay dearly for. The idea of natural being “better” when it results in so much damage to women is insulting.

Well vaginal birth doesn't come with its own set of potentially life-threatening risks, except infection if you have a severe tear (which the majority of women do not). So there's that.

Uh, preeclampsia? Placental abruption? Shoulder dystocia? Postpartum hemorrhage? Placenta previa? Pretty sure those are life threatening. Also—a lot of the aforementioned conditions caused by vaginal birth result in surgery to fix the issue (ie hysterectomy, mesh repairs, sacrocolpopexy, mesh bladder slings, sacral nerve stimulators, etc) which are a whole hell of a lot riskier than a planned c section and fail pretty often. There is a cost to all forms of birth.

Well, preeclampsia, abruption, hemorrhage, and previa can all happen AS PART OF PREGNANCY. These are not unique to vagina birth. Dystocia is also not unheard of in c section delivery. Hysterectomy, bowel and bladder perforation, etc. are also not unheard of in c section.

This isn’t a competition.

Here’s the thing... most c section parents are already dealing with a complication or they wouldn’t be having a c section. Baby is coming out of an area created not by nature, but by surgery.

Oh STFU. Anyone who has studied this understands that Mother Nature made a massive compromise in human birth. Human heads are utterly massive when compared to primates. The pelvic anatomy and musculature of primates are hugely different. Their pelvises have room to spare and primates can give birth quickly and easily. In contrast, the levator hiatus of a primiparous woman is 15 cm square and has to undergo a puborectalis muscle stretch to over 90 cm to deliver a fetal head. In about half of all women, this is successful. In the other half, there is levator ani damage, up to and including full avulsion of the muscle from the bone - which is basically the pelvic floor version of a full Achilles tear. That injury results in all sorts of problems for women that I mentioned previously. Yet OBs are not taught pelvic floor anatomy in med school and don’t have any clue how to look for this injury, and are largely taught that these injuries are just part of what happens when you have a baby.

I am all for awareness—of the risks of all delivery modes.

How about awareness of your grasp on facts and figures? Half of women do not suffer levator injuries.

Really? Research says the opposite. Since virtually 100 percent of OBs are not looking for this injury and do not know how to assess for it, it goes routinely undiagnosed. The sad fact is that biologically we were not meant to have our first babies at age 30, 35, and 40. There is a cost for being AMA at first delivery, and women pay dearly for it.

“In about half of all women after vaginal childbirth, there is substantial alteration of functional anatomy affecting the puborectalis component of the levator ani muscle.”

https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ajo.12059