Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, it sucks to have a dumb lazy kid isn’t it? Better to know her limitations now than later.

OP said her kid isn't pre-med.

Not any longer. Now we know why don’t we!?!?!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My cousins went to medical school in a foreign country. They paid $0 for college and medical school and are track to make 300k+ (after working VERY hard for many years of course). They got into medical school after taking their country's equivalent of the SATs and were on a 6 year track, not the 4 years of pre med + 4 years of med school that we have. Plus, they were able to emigrate from their deteriorating country to the US because of their skills. They are very intelligent and ace every test.

Not a bad deal for them or for the country that got them while spending $0 on their education.

Oh, and I forgot to add, my cousins did not have to worry about being "weeded out." Two years worth of exams in high school determined whether they were going to be a doctor or not, and only failing would have stopped them. If we let our top 99% of SAT takers go to medical school for free in 6 years I imagine the cohort of doctors would look much different. As for their skill, I think one is a pretty good doctor and I think the other is a jerk and is probably a jerk to patients too.

++++

Anonymous wrote:IMO one of the largest factors is that medical school (like law school) does not screen for the factors that make for a good practitioner and over relies on grades and test scores. This tends to lead to a glut of medical students with astronomical scores and low social skills / emotional IQ. I don’t care as much about the role of foreign trained physicians as the fact that the structure of premedical and medical education weeds out kids who would be truly terrific doctors, particularly in primary care / peds / geriatrics (where the need is highest and “soft skills” are hugely important. I just finished a non-medical masters program at a top medical school. I was horrified at the utter lack of social skills amongst the so called best and brightest and it wasn’t just the international students by a long shot. Truly, it was so bad I worried for my future medical care. I think something has to change!

This x1,000. Students are weeded out simply because there is not enough space in the medical schools, and they need to make decisions about who gets in somehow. However, the classes that we use to weed out the students have very little to do with how good a doctor the student will become. Not only with regard to interpersonal skills, but real world analytical and problem solving skills, as well.

Anonymous wrote:My cousins went to medical school in a foreign country. They paid $0 for college and medical school and are track to make 300k+ (after working VERY hard for many years of course). They got into medical school after taking their country's equivalent of the SATs and were on a 6 year track, not the 4 years of pre med + 4 years of med school that we have. Plus, they were able to emigrate from their deteriorating country to the US because of their skills. They are very intelligent and ace every test.

Not a bad deal for them or for the country that got them while spending $0 on their education.

Oh, and I forgot to add, my cousins did not have to worry about being "weeded out." Two years worth of exams in high school determined whether they were going to be a doctor or not, and only failing would have stopped them. If we let our top 99% of SAT takers go to medical school for free in 6 years I imagine the cohort of doctors would look much different. As for their skill, I think one is a pretty good doctor and I think the other is a jerk and is probably a jerk to patients too.

"What do you call the person who graduated last in their class in med school?"
"Doctor."

Personally, I'd rather the standard for being the last in the class to be as high as possible. And yes, that probably means they got all As and not Bs in their pre-med classes.

Sorry, not sorry.

Anonymous wrote:Every student at every top 20 US college has the IQ and standardized test chops to become a pediatrician, at least, yet STEM departments and college administrators get off on weeding out 50-75% of them. From pre-med -> consulting, law and finance. Then we fill half of our hospitals up with doctors from Egypt, Pakistan, and India? My parents last few visits to the hospital were awful experiences with rude foreign doctors who treated them like trash.

First, the obvious fact that many at top 20 colleges are not focused on STEM. And of those who are, many are into economics/finance, CS or engineering rather than the natural sciences. So far from all of them have the intellectual inclination to do the course work needed to be a primary care doctor.

Second, a more subtle point. Med schools like to accept from as wide and diverse set of schools as possible and there are limited slots. Many of the bigger and higher ranked schools have med school committees that effectively decide who gets the good med school recommendations that they feel will uphold their reputation with those schools and those who will not. Weeding out through course work allows them to limit the extent to which they have to give half-hearted or worse recommendations. (I admit no sources for this except a lot of perusal of Student Doctor Network forums.)

Third, the number of med school graduates is only sufficient to fill 75% to 80% of the available residencies. The rest are filled with foreign med school graduates who have, nonetheless, passed the USMLEs. We need the residencies to have sufficient doctors so cutting back on them to limit foreign graduates is not really an option. Most of the foreign graduates are going into the much needed primary care residencies. The only other solution would be to expand the number of slots at US medical schools. But this is difficult for a number of reasons and expensive as well.

Anonymous wrote:Op, it sucks to have a dumb lazy kid isn’t it? Better to know her limitations now than later.

OP said her kid isn't pre-med.

Every student at every top 20 US college has the IQ and standardized test chops to become a pediatrician, at least, yet STEM departments and college administrators get off on weeding out 50-75% of them. From pre-med -> consulting, law and finance. Then we fill half of our hospitals up with doctors from Egypt, Pakistan, and India? My parents last few visits to the hospital were awful experiences with rude foreign doctors who treated them like trash.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO one of the largest factors is that medical school (like law school) does not screen for the factors that make for a good practitioner and over relies on grades and test scores. This tends to lead to a glut of medical students with astronomical scores and low social skills / emotional IQ. I don’t care as much about the role of foreign trained physicians as the fact that the structure of premedical and medical education weeds out kids who would be truly terrific doctors, particularly in primary care / peds / geriatrics (where the need is highest and “soft skills” are hugely important. I just finished a non-medical masters program at a top medical school. I was horrified at the utter lack of social skills amongst the so called best and brightest and it wasn’t just the international students by a long shot. Truly, it was so bad I worried for my future medical care. I think something has to change!

This is your opinion. I would rather go to a doctor who is on top of their knowledge, up to date on latest research in their field, good diagnostician, and is thorough. So called “soft skills” rank below all of the above. I would also prefer to trust my life in the hands of an A student rather than a B student.

Thé piece you’re missing, that an earlier poster alluded to, is that a good diagnostician has the soft skills. They are ones with the patience and manner that get honest responses from their patients. Can’t be a good diagnostician with partial information.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO one of the largest factors is that medical school (like law school) does not screen for the factors that make for a good practitioner and over relies on grades and test scores. This tends to lead to a glut of medical students with astronomical scores and low social skills / emotional IQ. I don’t care as much about the role of foreign trained physicians as the fact that the structure of premedical and medical education weeds out kids who would be truly terrific doctors, particularly in primary care / peds / geriatrics (where the need is highest and “soft skills” are hugely important. I just finished a non-medical masters program at a top medical school. I was horrified at the utter lack of social skills amongst the so called best and brightest and it wasn’t just the international students by a long shot. Truly, it was so bad I worried for my future medical care. I think something has to change!

This is your opinion. I would rather go to a doctor who is on top of their knowledge, up to date on latest research in their field, good diagnostician, and is thorough. So called “soft skills” rank below all of the above. I would also prefer to trust my life in the hands of an A student rather than a B student.

+1. Soft skills are okay as long as you are getting a flu shot or being treated for a simple sickness. When a patient is facing life or death situation as in a cancer patient, soft skills at the expense of top notch research knowledge is no good. The doctor in the later case needs to be thoroughly aware of latest research, cutting-edge cancer treatments, latest drugs, even latest clinical trials underway, etc. It doesn't cut to say "as long as the doctors are republicans" a la Ronald Reagan.

And yet few of them are.

Op, it sucks to have a dumb lazy kid isn’t it? Better to know her limitations now than later.

Anonymous wrote:Because it is hard and kids are NOT willing to put in required work. My kid is in premed and about to take her MCAT... it's been a long and hard journey for her. she's been up and studying as i type this

+1

My cousins went to medical school in a foreign country. They paid $0 for college and medical school and are track to make 300k+ (after working VERY hard for many years of course). They got into medical school after taking their country's equivalent of the SATs and were on a 6 year track, not the 4 years of pre med + 4 years of med school that we have. Plus, they were able to emigrate from their deteriorating country to the US because of their skills. They are very intelligent and ace every test.

Not a bad deal for them or for the country that got them while spending $0 on their education.

Anonymous wrote:From a social perspective, it is very expensive to train a doctor (medical school is net loser), so as a country, it is better off for the USA to not train enough doctors and then import doctors trained at the cost of their home countries.

Exactly. The brain drain we talk about in India is attributed to the brilliant kids who study at the IITs and government run medical schools. The fees are really low and their education is highly subsidized by the govt. However, they leave the country and enrich the American economy. So the PP is right, America is benefiting from the brain drain of other countries.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to the person who said they have encountered doctors "from places you have never heard of".....speak for yourself.

Not all Americans are insular and ignorant.

+1. What place have you "never heard of?"

Can you name the top colleges and medical schools in Iraq and India and Bangladesh?
How do they stack up to the Ivies, the ACC and BigTen?

IIT is as good as the top Us schools.

Better, actually. It you asked me to pick between an IIT grad and a US University grad as to who would treat me, I would pick up the IIT grad.

Before the racists start screaming, I am white, born in the US.

IIT is true meritocracy. The sharpest kids get in there and are discovering and running major parts of Silicon Valley. They are not good at the graduate level hence not much research comes out of there.