Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 18:25     Subject: How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Apparently no one is allowed to post any opinions against buying from a breeder on the labradoodle thread, so I'm starting a new thread here. I'm seriously interested in hearing how anyone can justify buying a designer dog when so many beautiful dogs are available for adoption in shelters. How do you sleep at night?

This is like asking how someone can justify having their own children when so many are waiting to be adopted.


Seriously. If I'm going to lose sleep over something, it will be kids that need a "forever home", not dogs that need one. (And I really, really love dogs.)

I do find it really irritating that I am expected to rescue a dog to support the bad habits of lots of people that should know better and yet refuse to neuter/spay their pets. I would, however, support donating money towards a program that provides free spay/neuter for people in the South (which is where almost all these dogs come from), and also would support laws that give you a discount on pet licenses for spayed/neutered dogs, or other regulatory efforts that would incentivize spaying and neutering pets. As it is, the current social pressure to rescue dogs enables two groups of people that I have no desire to enable: 1) people who let their dogs roam around without bothering to fix them (most of whom do not live in my neck of the woods); and 2) puppy mills that dump their excess product on rescue organizations.

Decent people that need to rehome a pet fro a good reason (like military families that get posted abroad, or families where there's a medical issue that prevents them from keeping the pet) can almost always re-home their pet through neighrborhood or social circles.
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 18:19     Subject: How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In my county, rescues are all pit and/or boxer mixes. I don't want a pit or boxer so why should I feel obligated to rescue?


Really - I find that hard to believe. Any well run shelter will keep up to date posts of their available dogs - so tell us what county you live in because this will be an easy one to prove or disprove.


I live in Pima County. Of course, "all" is hyperbole. But at least 90% are - and the others are in high demand, so going in on a Sunday morning is likely not going to get the one you pick for me on the internet. But thanks for playing.


Hmmm....I grew up in Pima County and have family there. They've been able to get lovely lab mixes from the shelters. FWIW, I think you should make your own choices. I have a full-bred that I got from a breeder because I preferred a specific breed that is rarely found in shelters (because they are so awesome no one gives them up).
And by the way, boxers are lovely family dogs that shouldn't be lumped in with pits.
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 18:11     Subject: How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
OP, it’s pretty clear you know nothing about the dog industry, and that significantly diminishes your credibility.

Please read The Dog Merchants. It’s a landmark report on the puppy mill industry, how bad it is, and the sometimes unethical and ultimately enabling shelters who buy (“rescue”) puppies from auctions and perpetuate the cycle.

This why we need to push through legislation that will give more rights to animal companions and prohibit inhumane practices. This leads to broader philosophical questions about pet ownership too.

Rescueing individual pets from shelters who buy puppies, directly or indirectly, is WORSE than doing nothing, if you consider the number of lives that will suffer in the future because the puppy mill was able to stay in business.

Instead of spending your time talking to us, participate in anti-puppy mill campaigns.
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 17:55     Subject: How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
I want a low shedding or non shedding dog.
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 17:54     Subject: How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Apparently no one is allowed to post any opinions against buying from a breeder on the labradoodle thread, so I'm starting a new thread here. I'm seriously interested in hearing how anyone can justify buying a designer dog when so many beautiful dogs are available for adoption in shelters. How do you sleep at night?

This is like asking how someone can justify having their own children when so many are waiting to be adopted.


Or how can you justify a fancy anything when there are starving people in the world. Why are you going on vacation instead of donating that money.
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 17:53     Subject: Re:How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Newsflash: most rescues nowadays use their donor money to purchase dogs from auctions i.e. puppy mills, or to import dogs from out of state and country shelters which reinforces a supply chain.

.

Yes, I read an article about that recently! ironic.

I looked at petfinders just now. Ther are 1,200 dogs listed within 100 miles of my zip code. 700 of them are Pit Bulls.


While not a perfect system, it is important for rescues to buy the puppy mill rejects. Otherwise, what do you think would happen to these dogs when their reproductive lives are over? They will be thrown away like garbage.
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 17:48     Subject: How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
Anonymous wrote:Apparently no one is allowed to post any opinions against buying from a breeder on the labradoodle thread, so I'm starting a new thread here. I'm seriously interested in hearing how anyone can justify buying a designer dog when so many beautiful dogs are available for adoption in shelters. How do you sleep at night?

This is like asking how someone can justify having their own children when so many are waiting to be adopted.
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 17:44     Subject: Re:How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
I want a pet without trauma and who was well-looked after by a breeder. Besides, if breeders cannot sell the dogs they will either kill them or send them to shelters. It all boils down to the same thing.

Spending time, money and resources on cats and dogs is dumb. Might as well send money to save endangered animals. But, do you all even care?
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 17:40     Subject: How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't justify it. Why do I need to justify it? DH and kids wanted a golden, I didn't want a dog. As a matter of fact, they never even thought about a rescue. Now, I am stuck with the lovely, well behaved, adorable yellow bear and he is 100% my dog. Heck, he only listens to me. I don't have some savior or high moral ground complex and clearly nor does my DH. I used to drive a Suburban too. And I live in a house, not a condo, so wasteful too. And I eat meat, but also plants, and I feed my dog pork chops sometimes. And I feed deer, and give money to beggars, and donate cars to charities, and donate ton of stuff to used store that is a charity for animals. You do you honey, and find a job or a hobby.


Your kids wouldn't know what a golden was except for DH. Shame in him for not educating them on the value of rescuing.


Wasn't sure it was possible, but I like you less with each passing moment.


Was the PP wrong? Do you think certain breeds are more loving than others? Or does the golden just look better in your SUV?


My dog doesn't go in my SUV, he has his own driver and his own car. You think I am trash that would risk her dog by allowing him to stick his head out of the window?
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 17:39     Subject: Re:How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
Anonymous wrote:Newsflash: most rescues nowadays use their donor money to purchase dogs from auctions i.e. puppy mills, or to import dogs from out of state and country shelters which reinforces a supply chain.

Getting a dog, like anything else in this country, is an industry. Money is exchanged for a commodity. I contacted multiple rescues, didn't pass the sniff test to get one of their precious rescues, so I took my business elsewhere.

I sleep great at night. With my best bud at the foot of the bed warming my toes.

I heard the same thing. Why would I support a rescue who in turn may be supporting puppy mills?

I also needed a specific breed due to allergies. So as I looked at hypoallergenic dogs and researched personalities, trainability, and temperament and based on all this, we chose a poodle. We could not be happier. Our dog’s personality, temperament, trainability, etc was as researched.

That is why people choose a specific breed rather than go through a rescue. It’s not as much of a crap shoot. I had a rescue dog for 15 years, and she was wonderful. I loved her to bits, however, she shed a lot! After she passed I met and married a man who has dog allergies and we had children who also have dog allergies. No one has a negative allergic reaction to my dog.
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 17:11     Subject: Re:How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
Anonymous wrote:Newsflash: most rescues nowadays use their donor money to purchase dogs from auctions i.e. puppy mills, or to import dogs from out of state and country shelters which reinforces a supply chain.

.

Yes, I read an article about that recently! ironic.

I looked at petfinders just now. Ther are 1,200 dogs listed within 100 miles of my zip code. 700 of them are Pit Bulls.
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 16:57     Subject: Re:How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
We're another family who is seriously limited in what breeds we can get due to allergies.

Fortunately there are breed specific rescues that can help those of us who need specific breeds, but that's limited too, since the breed specific rescues will often pick up mixes.

Dog rescue people can also be nuts. We were looking for a dog, after having lost our previous dog to a terrible (genetic) illness about a year before. We had spent a fortune keeping her happy and with us as long as possible, got notes of recommendation from our vet, and so on. And the rescue people were still very suspicious and weird. It's not always due to owner negligence that a dog dies at a younger age. You'd think the recommendation from the vet and providing the health records would have been enough. I got the impression the rescue people weren't particularly interested in placing their dogs. We ended up getting a pet-quality dog from a breeder and he's been a wonderful addition to our family.

We had a previous experience with a breed specific rescue that wasn't anywhere near as weird, and in retrospect I wonder if it's because the first time we were looking for an older (5+ years old) dog, and this more recent time we were looking for a younger (under 3 years old) dog.
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 16:55     Subject: How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
1. We needed one of a very limited list of specific breeds known for being less allergenic (less dander). None of them could be found at local shelters or rescues.

2. Temperament is largely inherited, and we wanted to be sure of getting a sociable, friendly dog. One of the many duties of a good breeder is make the lineage characteristics known to prospective buyers. Our dog's parents and grandparents are all very social, and so is he and his littermates.


You appear to be confused about the differences between puppy mills, backyard breeders and reputable breeders. The first is by definition unethical. The second may not place the dogs' interest first, either through ignorance, lack of means, or cruelty. The third should be the only genetically and ethically sound solution to pet ownership.

Reputable breeders are passionate about their work and it usually costs them much more than any income from dog sales or stud fees. Call it an expensive second job, if you will. They attach great importance to weeding out genetically-inherited diseases that have developed through the decades by poor breeding programs, by testing every single dog they own and entering all results - both good and bad - in the national dog health database (CHIC). They do not breed unhealthy carriers.

Our breeder set a camera 24/7 in the whelping pen she had constructed in her bedroom, so that we could check on the puppies and dam at any moment, right from birth.

We saw the breeder handle the puppies every single day, as she should, to habituate them to human handling. I can clean my dog's ears, clip his nails, take away embedded thorns in his pads, clean very sensitive areas, take away his food, clean his teeth, place medication down his throat, and he will not flinch. That is a result of proper handling.

The breeder exposed them to all kinds of city and farm noises, so they wouldn't be jumpy creatures.
She leash-trained and started to potty-train them before we picked up our puppy at 9 weeks.

We visited her home, and the dogs were well cared for. Good breeders care for a small number of dogs, which live inside the home and not in a kennel. They do not breed mothers often. Our breeder manages a birth once every two years and allows two pregnancies per dam.



There is some wishful thinking in your post but I think most people can agree there are some responsible breeders.

But I also think it is indisputable that hundreds of thousands of perfectly good dogs are euthanized every year in this country.

And that rational people ignore the silly person(s) who keep posting that if you adopt a shelter dog it is going to turn out to be a pit bull and kill your family in the middle of the night.

So how do you justify contributing to the avoidable murder of dogs?

How is getting a dog from a breeder contributing to murder? If I didn’t get a dog from a breeder, I just wouldn’t have a dog at all.


Because if you didn't get a dog at all, you'd help put breeders out of business.


I'm the first PP in this chain. Let me point out that:

A. I would never adopt a dog whose antecedents I didn't know and who wasn't part of the list of less allergenic dogs.
B. We should all SUPPORT the best breeders in their work to clean up dog lines from years of unhealthy breeding. They produce dogs that are healthy in mind and body. As I have said before on this forum, they should receive a national certification to identify themselves to the public and distinguish themselves from the rest. Then the rest should be progressively outlawed.
C. This country is very successful in its spay and neuter campaign, so if we crack down on puppy mills, we should see shelter populations decrease rapidly.
D. We MUST reinforce and implement laws against unethical and cruel breeding practices, ie, puppy mills. This is FAR more impactful for the future than focusing on adopting one dog at a time. Only math-challenged people cannot see this.

We should think in terms of public health, OP. Just like for humans. There are long-term goals we need to articulate as a country for animals.


Using a reputable breeder is clearly better than getting a dog from a puppy mill or other source of unknown provenance.

But it is also still clearly better to get a dog from a shelter than even a reputable breeder.

But the rest of this post is just pure silliness.

You really think your breeder has some great intel on the antecedents of where the dog came from?

But more importantly you think it actually matters? There is nothing inherently unhealthy or problematic about mutts.

You actually think there is a public health issue here that you are solving by using breeders? Please tell us what that public health issue is.
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 16:48     Subject: How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
Anonymous wrote:Op, I do dog rescue. The nasty tone of your post helps no one. Instead of posts like these, get involved as a dog foster.


Sometimes you need to get militant. Dogs' lives are literally at stake, all because of people's vanity.
Anonymous
Post 10/30/2018 16:48     Subject: How do you justify buying from a breeder instead of rescuing a mutt?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
1. We needed one of a very limited list of specific breeds known for being less allergenic (less dander). None of them could be found at local shelters or rescues.

2. Temperament is largely inherited, and we wanted to be sure of getting a sociable, friendly dog. One of the many duties of a good breeder is make the lineage characteristics known to prospective buyers. Our dog's parents and grandparents are all very social, and so is he and his littermates.


You appear to be confused about the differences between puppy mills, backyard breeders and reputable breeders. The first is by definition unethical. The second may not place the dogs' interest first, either through ignorance, lack of means, or cruelty. The third should be the only genetically and ethically sound solution to pet ownership.

Reputable breeders are passionate about their work and it usually costs them much more than any income from dog sales or stud fees. Call it an expensive second job, if you will. They attach great importance to weeding out genetically-inherited diseases that have developed through the decades by poor breeding programs, by testing every single dog they own and entering all results - both good and bad - in the national dog health database (CHIC). They do not breed unhealthy carriers.

Our breeder set a camera 24/7 in the whelping pen she had constructed in her bedroom, so that we could check on the puppies and dam at any moment, right from birth.

We saw the breeder handle the puppies every single day, as she should, to habituate them to human handling. I can clean my dog's ears, clip his nails, take away embedded thorns in his pads, clean very sensitive areas, take away his food, clean his teeth, place medication down his throat, and he will not flinch. That is a result of proper handling.

The breeder exposed them to all kinds of city and farm noises, so they wouldn't be jumpy creatures.
She leash-trained and started to potty-train them before we picked up our puppy at 9 weeks.

We visited her home, and the dogs were well cared for. Good breeders care for a small number of dogs, which live inside the home and not in a kennel. They do not breed mothers often. Our breeder manages a birth once every two years and allows two pregnancies per dam.



There is some wishful thinking in your post but I think most people can agree there are some responsible breeders.

But I also think it is indisputable that hundreds of thousands of perfectly good dogs are euthanized every year in this country.

And that rational people ignore the silly person(s) who keep posting that if you adopt a shelter dog it is going to turn out to be a pit bull and kill your family in the middle of the night.

So how do you justify contributing to the avoidable murder of dogs?

How is getting a dog from a breeder contributing to murder? If I didn’t get a dog from a breeder, I just wouldn’t have a dog at all.


Because if you didn't get a dog at all, you'd help put breeders out of business.


I'm the first PP in this chain. Let me point out that:

A. I would never adopt a dog whose antecedents I didn't know and who wasn't part of the list of less allergenic dogs.
B. We should all SUPPORT the best breeders in their work to clean up dog lines from years of unhealthy breeding. They produce dogs that are healthy in mind and body. As I have said before on this forum, they should receive a national certification to identify themselves to the public and distinguish themselves from the rest. Then the rest should be progressively outlawed.
C. This country is very successful in its spay and neuter campaign, so if we crack down on puppy mills, we should see shelter populations decrease rapidly.
D. We MUST reinforce and implement laws against unethical and cruel breeding practices, ie, puppy mills. This is FAR more impactful for the future than focusing on adopting one dog at a time. Only math-challenged people cannot see this.

We should think in terms of public health, OP. Just like for humans. There are long-term goals we need to articulate as a country for animals.