Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I did not mean to offend anyone. I was simply expressing my hesitance to become part of a social group that generally isn't perceived in the most flattering light when it comes to being a woman. Moms work so hard and yet seem to be so undervalued. Everything they do is "uncool" or "embarrassing." I think there's something about being a youngish, in-the-know childless woman where people treat you better. That's what I am afraid of losing.

Society views moms as sexless frumpy and lame. I do a hobby where I hang out with millennials a lot and it is shocking how they perceive older women and especially moms. Even very feminist young women fall prey to thinking about moms in this stereotypical way. As if women are stripped of any value or creativity or interest once they have kids. It’s ridiculous.

So people who are actually procreating are perceived as sexless, but single women who live alone are super sexy? This is not how sex works.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So: I definitely don't think everyone should have kids (ie people who don't want to be parents should not have children), and I think there are plenty of perfectly valid reasons to decide against it. It's certainly not a decision to take lightly and yes, especially in the short term there are definitely sacrifices and lifestyle changes involved. I also think it's safe to say that, for the grand majority of parents, it's more than worth it. Hands down, tenfold. That said, I also agree with most PPs that YOU probably should not have kids (which is perfectly fine! Really.) and that if you do, you have a heck of a lot of mental growing up and emotional maturing to do first.

But: for the sake of argument, let's take YOUR reasoning. Your whole premise is based on how people perceive you. You don't like the idea of being looked at negatively or lesser than in public because you're a mom (...I'm sorry, a "mom") - which, sidenote, I can tell you I truly do not really encounter (...or if I do, I don't notice / care - it's much more freeing than spending all your time worried about what others think, trust me!) But you're placing this big importance on being perceived as youngish and with it, which in your mind is seen as cooler than "she's a mom." Wellllllll...as others have pointed out, your days of qualifying as even youngISH are numbered. And you know who society looks down on more than muffin-topped women with exposed roots wearing LL Bean and driving minivans (...or whatever it is you're so afraid of automatically becoming)? Aging spinsters, alone and trying desperately to cling to their long gone youths.

(For real though: even though I'm in The Club myself, I can't tell on appearance which women I encounter in public are moms or not (unless they have their children with them, obviously). A lack of children does not a gorgeous enviable stylish icon make, and there are plenty of hot, interesting, kickass women who also happen to be moms.)

yup
young people who are childless because they are young are cool, hip, in the know whatever. in contrast, childless old people are perceived as freaks or losers. the fact is that most people (80% or so) will have children. of those who don't, a vast majority failed to (seriously, there is research on this) despite wanting to. childless by choice is a fringe group... since you care so much how you are going to be perceived as you age, the fact is that, righty or wrongly, you will be perceived as a loser or a freak by a vast majority of people. you need to be insanely accomplished to compensate for that. i am very ambitious but i wouldn't want to bear that burden myself.

I had several great aunts who didn't have children. They were lovely, caring women and were cherished by our family. Noone though they were a "freak or loser." This poster is a jerk.

moms are adored by their children even more than your aunts were by their family. but according to OP that doesn't matter - what matters is how they are perceived by strangers, especially cool young ones. it's for this reason that I and the other poster are pointing out that childless older women are not a high status group.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So: I definitely don't think everyone should have kids (ie people who don't want to be parents should not have children), and I think there are plenty of perfectly valid reasons to decide against it. It's certainly not a decision to take lightly and yes, especially in the short term there are definitely sacrifices and lifestyle changes involved. I also think it's safe to say that, for the grand majority of parents, it's more than worth it. Hands down, tenfold. That said, I also agree with most PPs that YOU probably should not have kids (which is perfectly fine! Really.) and that if you do, you have a heck of a lot of mental growing up and emotional maturing to do first.

But: for the sake of argument, let's take YOUR reasoning. Your whole premise is based on how people perceive you. You don't like the idea of being looked at negatively or lesser than in public because you're a mom (...I'm sorry, a "mom") - which, sidenote, I can tell you I truly do not really encounter (...or if I do, I don't notice / care - it's much more freeing than spending all your time worried about what others think, trust me!) But you're placing this big importance on being perceived as youngish and with it, which in your mind is seen as cooler than "she's a mom." Wellllllll...as others have pointed out, your days of qualifying as even youngISH are numbered. And you know who society looks down on more than muffin-topped women with exposed roots wearing LL Bean and driving minivans (...or whatever it is you're so afraid of automatically becoming)? Aging spinsters, alone and trying desperately to cling to their long gone youths.

(For real though: even though I'm in The Club myself, I can't tell on appearance which women I encounter in public are moms or not (unless they have their children with them, obviously). A lack of children does not a gorgeous enviable stylish icon make, and there are plenty of hot, interesting, kickass women who also happen to be moms.)

yup
young people who are childless because they are young are cool, hip, in the know whatever. in contrast, childless old people are perceived as freaks or losers. the fact is that most people (80% or so) will have children. of those who don't, a vast majority failed to (seriously, there is research on this) despite wanting to. childless by choice is a fringe group... since you care so much how you are going to be perceived as you age, the fact is that, righty or wrongly, you will be perceived as a loser or a freak by a vast majority of people. you need to be insanely accomplished to compensate for that. i am very ambitious but i wouldn't want to bear that burden myself.

I had several great aunts who didn't have children. They were lovely, caring women and were cherished by our family. Noone though they were a "freak or loser." This poster is a jerk.

moms are adored by their children even more than your aunts were by their family. but according to OP that doesn't matter - what matters is how they are perceived by strangers, especially cool young ones. it's for this reason that I and the other poster are pointing out that childless older women are not a high status group.

I think the point is, NOBODY should be making childbearing decisions based on perceived social status that is based on animus against women.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So: I definitely don't think everyone should have kids (ie people who don't want to be parents should not have children), and I think there are plenty of perfectly valid reasons to decide against it. It's certainly not a decision to take lightly and yes, especially in the short term there are definitely sacrifices and lifestyle changes involved. I also think it's safe to say that, for the grand majority of parents, it's more than worth it. Hands down, tenfold. That said, I also agree with most PPs that YOU probably should not have kids (which is perfectly fine! Really.) and that if you do, you have a heck of a lot of mental growing up and emotional maturing to do first.

But: for the sake of argument, let's take YOUR reasoning. Your whole premise is based on how people perceive you. You don't like the idea of being looked at negatively or lesser than in public because you're a mom (...I'm sorry, a "mom") - which, sidenote, I can tell you I truly do not really encounter (...or if I do, I don't notice / care - it's much more freeing than spending all your time worried about what others think, trust me!) But you're placing this big importance on being perceived as youngish and with it, which in your mind is seen as cooler than "she's a mom." Wellllllll...as others have pointed out, your days of qualifying as even youngISH are numbered. And you know who society looks down on more than muffin-topped women with exposed roots wearing LL Bean and driving minivans (...or whatever it is you're so afraid of automatically becoming)? Aging spinsters, alone and trying desperately to cling to their long gone youths.

(For real though: even though I'm in The Club myself, I can't tell on appearance which women I encounter in public are moms or not (unless they have their children with them, obviously). A lack of children does not a gorgeous enviable stylish icon make, and there are plenty of hot, interesting, kickass women who also happen to be moms.)

yup
young people who are childless because they are young are cool, hip, in the know whatever. in contrast, childless old people are perceived as freaks or losers. the fact is that most people (80% or so) will have children. of those who don't, a vast majority failed to (seriously, there is research on this) despite wanting to. childless by choice is a fringe group... since you care so much how you are going to be perceived as you age, the fact is that, righty or wrongly, you will be perceived as a loser or a freak by a vast majority of people. you need to be insanely accomplished to compensate for that. i am very ambitious but i wouldn't want to bear that burden myself.

I had several great aunts who didn't have children. They were lovely, caring women and were cherished by our family. Noone though they were a "freak or loser." This poster is a jerk.

moms are adored by their children even more than your aunts were by their family. but according to OP that doesn't matter - what matters is how they are perceived by strangers, especially cool young ones. it's for this reason that I and the other poster are pointing out that childless older women are not a high status group.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I did not mean to offend anyone. I was simply expressing my hesitance to become part of a social group that generally isn't perceived in the most flattering light when it comes to being a woman. Moms work so hard and yet seem to be so undervalued. Everything they do is "uncool" or "embarrassing." I think there's something about being a youngish, in-the-know childless woman where people treat you better. That's what I am afraid of losing.

Society views moms as sexless frumpy and lame. I do a hobby where I hang out with millennials a lot and it is shocking how they perceive older women and especially moms. Even very feminist young women fall prey to thinking about moms in this stereotypical way. As if women are stripped of any value or creativity or interest once they have kids. It’s ridiculous.

So people who are actually procreating are perceived as sexless, but single women who live alone are super sexy? This is not how sex works.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So: I definitely don't think everyone should have kids (ie people who don't want to be parents should not have children), and I think there are plenty of perfectly valid reasons to decide against it. It's certainly not a decision to take lightly and yes, especially in the short term there are definitely sacrifices and lifestyle changes involved. I also think it's safe to say that, for the grand majority of parents, it's more than worth it. Hands down, tenfold. That said, I also agree with most PPs that YOU probably should not have kids (which is perfectly fine! Really.) and that if you do, you have a heck of a lot of mental growing up and emotional maturing to do first.

But: for the sake of argument, let's take YOUR reasoning. Your whole premise is based on how people perceive you. You don't like the idea of being looked at negatively or lesser than in public because you're a mom (...I'm sorry, a "mom") - which, sidenote, I can tell you I truly do not really encounter (...or if I do, I don't notice / care - it's much more freeing than spending all your time worried about what others think, trust me!) But you're placing this big importance on being perceived as youngish and with it, which in your mind is seen as cooler than "she's a mom." Wellllllll...as others have pointed out, your days of qualifying as even youngISH are numbered. And you know who society looks down on more than muffin-topped women with exposed roots wearing LL Bean and driving minivans (...or whatever it is you're so afraid of automatically becoming)? Aging spinsters, alone and trying desperately to cling to their long gone youths.

(For real though: even though I'm in The Club myself, I can't tell on appearance which women I encounter in public are moms or not (unless they have their children with them, obviously). A lack of children does not a gorgeous enviable stylish icon make, and there are plenty of hot, interesting, kickass women who also happen to be moms.)

yup
young people who are childless because they are young are cool, hip, in the know whatever. in contrast, childless old people are perceived as freaks or losers. the fact is that most people (80% or so) will have children. of those who don't, a vast majority failed to (seriously, there is research on this) despite wanting to. childless by choice is a fringe group... since you care so much how you are going to be perceived as you age, the fact is that, righty or wrongly, you will be perceived as a loser or a freak by a vast majority of people. you need to be insanely accomplished to compensate for that. i am very ambitious but i wouldn't want to bear that burden myself.

I had several great aunts who didn't have children. They were lovely, caring women and were cherished by our family. Noone though they were a "freak or loser." This poster is a jerk.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So: I definitely don't think everyone should have kids (ie people who don't want to be parents should not have children), and I think there are plenty of perfectly valid reasons to decide against it. It's certainly not a decision to take lightly and yes, especially in the short term there are definitely sacrifices and lifestyle changes involved. I also think it's safe to say that, for the grand majority of parents, it's more than worth it. Hands down, tenfold. That said, I also agree with most PPs that YOU probably should not have kids (which is perfectly fine! Really.) and that if you do, you have a heck of a lot of mental growing up and emotional maturing to do first.

But: for the sake of argument, let's take YOUR reasoning. Your whole premise is based on how people perceive you. You don't like the idea of being looked at negatively or lesser than in public because you're a mom (...I'm sorry, a "mom") - which, sidenote, I can tell you I truly do not really encounter (...or if I do, I don't notice / care - it's much more freeing than spending all your time worried about what others think, trust me!) But you're placing this big importance on being perceived as youngish and with it, which in your mind is seen as cooler than "she's a mom." Wellllllll...as others have pointed out, your days of qualifying as even youngISH are numbered. And you know who society looks down on more than muffin-topped women with exposed roots wearing LL Bean and driving minivans (...or whatever it is you're so afraid of automatically becoming)? Aging spinsters, alone and trying desperately to cling to their long gone youths.

(For real though: even though I'm in The Club myself, I can't tell on appearance which women I encounter in public are moms or not (unless they have their children with them, obviously). A lack of children does not a gorgeous enviable stylish icon make, and there are plenty of hot, interesting, kickass women who also happen to be moms.)

yup
young people who are childless because they are young are cool, hip, in the know whatever. in contrast, childless old people are perceived as freaks or losers. the fact is that most people (80% or so) will have children. of those who don't, a vast majority failed to (seriously, there is research on this) despite wanting to. childless by choice is a fringe group... since you care so much how you are going to be perceived as you age, the fact is that, righty or wrongly, you will be perceived as a loser or a freak by a vast majority of people. you need to be insanely accomplished to compensate for that. i am very ambitious but i wouldn't want to bear that burden myself.

I had several great aunts who didn't have children. They were lovely, caring women and were cherished by our family. Noone though they were a "freak or loser." This poster is a jerk.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I did not mean to offend anyone. I was simply expressing my hesitance to become part of a social group that generally isn't perceived in the most flattering light when it comes to being a woman. Moms work so hard and yet seem to be so undervalued. Everything they do is "uncool" or "embarrassing." I think there's something about being a youngish, in-the-know childless woman where people treat you better. That's what I am afraid of losing.

Society views moms as sexless frumpy and lame. I do a hobby where I hang out with millennials a lot and it is shocking how they perceive older women and especially moms. Even very feminist young women fall prey to thinking about moms in this stereotypical way. As if women are stripped of any value or creativity or interest once they have kids. It’s ridiculous.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So: I definitely don't think everyone should have kids (ie people who don't want to be parents should not have children), and I think there are plenty of perfectly valid reasons to decide against it. It's certainly not a decision to take lightly and yes, especially in the short term there are definitely sacrifices and lifestyle changes involved. I also think it's safe to say that, for the grand majority of parents, it's more than worth it. Hands down, tenfold. That said, I also agree with most PPs that YOU probably should not have kids (which is perfectly fine! Really.) and that if you do, you have a heck of a lot of mental growing up and emotional maturing to do first.

But: for the sake of argument, let's take YOUR reasoning. Your whole premise is based on how people perceive you. You don't like the idea of being looked at negatively or lesser than in public because you're a mom (...I'm sorry, a "mom") - which, sidenote, I can tell you I truly do not really encounter (...or if I do, I don't notice / care - it's much more freeing than spending all your time worried about what others think, trust me!) But you're placing this big importance on being perceived as youngish and with it, which in your mind is seen as cooler than "she's a mom." Wellllllll...as others have pointed out, your days of qualifying as even youngISH are numbered. And you know who society looks down on more than muffin-topped women with exposed roots wearing LL Bean and driving minivans (...or whatever it is you're so afraid of automatically becoming)? Aging spinsters, alone and trying desperately to cling to their long gone youths.

(For real though: even though I'm in The Club myself, I can't tell on appearance which women I encounter in public are moms or not (unless they have their children with them, obviously). A lack of children does not a gorgeous enviable stylish icon make, and there are plenty of hot, interesting, kickass women who also happen to be moms.)

yup
young people who are childless because they are young are cool, hip, in the know whatever. in contrast, childless old people are perceived as freaks or losers. the fact is that most people (80% or so) will have children. of those who don't, a vast majority failed to (seriously, there is research on this) despite wanting to. childless by choice is a fringe group... since you care so much how you are going to be perceived as you age, the fact is that, righty or wrongly, you will be perceived as a loser or a freak by a vast majority of people. you need to be insanely accomplished to compensate for that. i am very ambitious but i wouldn't want to bear that burden myself.