Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 10:48     Subject: are AP exams really necessary?
Anonymous wrote:“Easier” shouldn’t be the question. “Most effective” is what you’re looking for. In either case, depends on the teacher and the student. There’s not a categorical answer. And if the student will be retaking (or using) Calc in college, the question may be what is the best prep/foundation for college-level Calc. Learning less Calc but understanding what you learned well could be more of use.


Agreed.

But if we're talking strictly rigor, I would say that a semester CC calc course is harder than AB Calc. Of course their are many variables involved, but in general I would say that is true.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 10:43     Subject: are AP exams really necessary?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Have you all seen the statistics on AP testing results? ABYSMAL. We are talking only 5-9% getting a 5 and that is with a curve.

I am not sure the point of AP classes in high school. High school teachers can not teach them like college professors and the kids don’t have the time to digest them.

Public’s really need to start follow private school lead and offer advanced honors courses that prepare the kids for college courses, not try to cram a college course in from Aug to April and having kids take multiple AP tests and missing other classes during school time to do it. It is just way too chaotic to have juniors taking SAT or ACT, SAT subject tests, AP finals, other finals, and term papers all in the span of 1-2 months. These kids aren’t LEARNING anything. It is anxiety induced memorization.


Agree about the teachers. You want college classes? Go to community college.


Community college classes at ours (MC) are easily less rigorous than the AP classes that I teach. I've had students in both. Think about the cohorts...


An AP course is usually taught over the course of 2 semesters, a CC course is generally only 1 semester. There are pros and cons to both. Certainly you have more of an opportunity to go into depth in a year long course than you would if the course was condensed into one semester.


Well if you take a non AP Calculus in high school and THEN take Calculus in college, you get a much more thorough teaching, correct? This is what almost the entire country did prior to AP’s.

So to now say that an AP Cal course goes slowly is actually incorrect. Many kids go from Pre-Calc in high school to one year of AP Calc BC. Then they try and skip Calc 1 and Calc 2 in college. There is no comparison. AP’s are trying to whiz thru Calc on multiple choice questions to get you ready for college? Please.



I'll pose this question: "Which is easier for a student who has never taken calculus before: year long AP Calc AB, Calculus 1 during fall semester community college or Calc 1 summer session at the community college?"



New poster here. Most kids in our school do not take Calc AB. Most skip right to BC like someone else mentioned. I would say 80% The only kids that may take AB are seniors who have no desire to go into anything science or math related and took a slower track. But most of those kids end up taking AP Stats as it is deemed easier and you can bypass a math course in college. Not sure how it is elsewhere.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 10:38     Subject: are AP exams really necessary?
“Easier” shouldn’t be the question. “Most effective” is what you’re looking for. In either case, depends on the teacher and the student. There’s not a categorical answer. And if the student will be retaking (or using) Calc in college, the question may be what is the best prep/foundation for college-level Calc. Learning less Calc but understanding what you learned well could be more of use.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 10:36     Subject: are AP exams really necessary?
I think that a kid who has had a year of AB Calc is going to have an easier time in Calc 1 in college than a kid who has never had an intro calc course.

If anything, a concept such as limits is not going to be brand new territory for them.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 10:09     Subject: are AP exams really necessary?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Have you all seen the statistics on AP testing results? ABYSMAL. We are talking only 5-9% getting a 5 and that is with a curve.

I am not sure the point of AP classes in high school. High school teachers can not teach them like college professors and the kids don’t have the time to digest them.

Public’s really need to start follow private school lead and offer advanced honors courses that prepare the kids for college courses, not try to cram a college course in from Aug to April and having kids take multiple AP tests and missing other classes during school time to do it. It is just way too chaotic to have juniors taking SAT or ACT, SAT subject tests, AP finals, other finals, and term papers all in the span of 1-2 months. These kids aren’t LEARNING anything. It is anxiety induced memorization.


Agree about the teachers. You want college classes? Go to community college.


Community college classes at ours (MC) are easily less rigorous than the AP classes that I teach. I've had students in both. Think about the cohorts...


An AP course is usually taught over the course of 2 semesters, a CC course is generally only 1 semester. There are pros and cons to both. Certainly you have more of an opportunity to go into depth in a year long course than you would if the course was condensed into one semester.


Well if you take a non AP Calculus in high school and THEN take Calculus in college, you get a much more thorough teaching, correct? This is what almost the entire country did prior to AP’s.

So to now say that an AP Cal course goes slowly is actually incorrect. Many kids go from Pre-Calc in high school to one year of AP Calc BC. Then they try and skip Calc 1 and Calc 2 in college. There is no comparison. AP’s are trying to whiz thru Calc on multiple choice questions to get you ready for college? Please.



I'll pose this question: "Which is easier for a student who has never taken calculus before: year long AP Calc AB, Calculus 1 during fall semester community college or Calc 1 summer session at the community college?"

Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 10:00     Subject: are AP exams really necessary?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Have you all seen the statistics on AP testing results? ABYSMAL. We are talking only 5-9% getting a 5 and that is with a curve.

I am not sure the point of AP classes in high school. High school teachers can not teach them like college professors and the kids don’t have the time to digest them.

Public’s really need to start follow private school lead and offer advanced honors courses that prepare the kids for college courses, not try to cram a college course in from Aug to April and having kids take multiple AP tests and missing other classes during school time to do it. It is just way too chaotic to have juniors taking SAT or ACT, SAT subject tests, AP finals, other finals, and term papers all in the span of 1-2 months. These kids aren’t LEARNING anything. It is anxiety induced memorization.


Agree about the teachers. You want college classes? Go to community college.


Community college classes at ours (MC) are easily less rigorous than the AP classes that I teach. I've had students in both. Think about the cohorts...


An AP course is usually taught over the course of 2 semesters, a CC course is generally only 1 semester. There are pros and cons to both. Certainly you have more of an opportunity to go into depth in a year long course than you would if the course was condensed into one semester.


Well if you take a non AP Calculus in high school and THEN take Calculus in college, you get a much more thorough teaching, correct? This is what almost the entire country did prior to AP’s.

So to now say that an AP Cal course goes slowly is actually incorrect. Many kids go from Pre-Calc in high school to one year of AP Calc BC. Then they try and skip Calc 1 and Calc 2 in college. There is no comparison. AP’s are trying to whiz thru Calc on multiple choice questions to get you ready for college? Please.

Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 09:53     Subject: are AP exams really necessary?
^Same can be said about summer CC classes which cover the same material in about half the time of a regular fall/spring course.

There is the opportunity to spend more time on any one given topic during a regular semester course than there is during a summer semester when everything comes at you at a quick, rapid fire pace.

Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 09:20     Subject: are AP exams really necessary?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Have you all seen the statistics on AP testing results? ABYSMAL. We are talking only 5-9% getting a 5 and that is with a curve.

I am not sure the point of AP classes in high school. High school teachers can not teach them like college professors and the kids don’t have the time to digest them.

Public’s really need to start follow private school lead and offer advanced honors courses that prepare the kids for college courses, not try to cram a college course in from Aug to April and having kids take multiple AP tests and missing other classes during school time to do it. It is just way too chaotic to have juniors taking SAT or ACT, SAT subject tests, AP finals, other finals, and term papers all in the span of 1-2 months. These kids aren’t LEARNING anything. It is anxiety induced memorization.


Agree about the teachers. You want college classes? Go to community college.


Community college classes at ours (MC) are easily less rigorous than the AP classes that I teach. I've had students in both. Think about the cohorts...


An AP course is usually taught over the course of 2 semesters, a CC course is generally only 1 semester. There are pros and cons to both. Certainly you have more of an opportunity to go into depth in a year long course than you would if the course was condensed into one semester.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 09:16     Subject: are AP exams really necessary?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Have you all seen the statistics on AP testing results? ABYSMAL. We are talking only 5-9% getting a 5 and that is with a curve.

I am not sure the point of AP classes in high school. High school teachers can not teach them like college professors and the kids don’t have the time to digest them.

Public’s really need to start follow private school lead and offer advanced honors courses that prepare the kids for college courses, not try to cram a college course in from Aug to April and having kids take multiple AP tests and missing other classes during school time to do it. It is just way too chaotic to have juniors taking SAT or ACT, SAT subject tests, AP finals, other finals, and term papers all in the span of 1-2 months. These kids aren’t LEARNING anything. It is anxiety induced memorization.


Agree about the teachers. You want college classes? Go to community college.


Community college classes at ours (MC) are easily less rigorous than the AP classes that I teach. I've had students in both. Think about the cohorts...
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 09:09     Subject: are AP exams really necessary?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Hmmm. Would a student who took and passed General Chem at their local CC be able to get a 4 or 5 on the AP Chem test w/o additional study?

Would a student who took AP Chem and achieved or 4 or 5 on the AP exam be able to take and pass the Gen Chem final at their local CC w/o any additional study?

Are the courses truly interchangeable? Are the exams of equal difficulty? I wonder if anyone has studied this?

My nephew went to a SLAC and tried to bypass Calc 1 and 2 after taking AP Calc BC. Huge mistake. One year of BC will never ever get you past two rigorous Calc courses. He had to withdrawl and start over. Lost a semester. Kids skipping Calc AB are having the worst issues with it b


My oldest, based on similar advice, opted to retake Second semester calculus in college and said it was a waste of his time, everything was review. The only bonus was an easy A. Our younger son took BC Calculus his junior year in HS and the GMU co-curriular class for Matrix Algebra and Multivariable Calculus. He took differential equations fall freshman year and he was fine- got an A. I have heard similar experiences from parents of their peers. I think our HS must be exceptional in their math prep.


Okay Depends on the student and the school they matriculate too. Most struggle. Very little get easy A’s. Many top SLAC’s test you on your level too. That can and can not work.


There aren't too many multiple choice calculus tests in college. So the students need to adjust to writing all of the answers out and showing all of their work. Professors can be very picky graders and that can be difficult for a student until they get used to taking the tests.

Same thing with Gen Chem, Physics, etc.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 08:32     Subject: Re:are AP exams really necessary?

And later, when they accept, the college will ask for the AP scores to determine placement. They will ask, and it will matter.


Not necessarily. If you aren’t trying to skip a required class or prerequisite in college, then college has no interest in your AP scores. And if you do want to skip intro classes at the college level, the school’s own placement tests are often an alternative (and sometimes an additional requirement) for doing so.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 08:24     Subject: Re:are AP exams really necessary?
Anonymous wrote:"I teach history and it's the same thing. Kids come into my 200 and occasionally 300 level classes their very first semester and think they're hotshots. They are often brutally unprepared for college level work, unaware that there will not be hand-holding, and completely unable to write coherently."

Are you a professor or a lecturer?

If you are a professor, you need to talk to your colleagues about raising the prerequisites, not taking AP/only taking 5s or creating a first semester College Level Work Seminar/Bootcamp.


NP. 5s don’t solve the problem, at least wrt history. The level/type of analysis that the AP rewards is pretty shallow/formulaic by college standards. Kids who get 5s have mastered and internalized that approach and expect to be rewarded for it. And, on one level, they will. Most will get Bs rather than Cs, but the definition of excellence in college is (or should be) really different.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 08:24     Subject: Re:are AP exams really necessary?





Anonymous wrote:





Anonymous




"The problem with APs, is that it has become the de facto “most rigorous” course load at a high school.

Although a college may not accept the credits, most still make the “rigorous” consideration (for admissions) based on how many your student took while in high school."

So don't take the exams.


This strategy won't work if the APs were taken sophomore or junior year. The colleges will want to know how the student fared.

You don't have to send your scores with your application. It is not part of the common ap. They will just see the class on the transcript.



And later, when they accept, the college will ask for the AP scores to determine placement. They will ask, and it will matter.

Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 08:07     Subject: are AP exams really necessary?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Hmmm. Would a student who took and passed General Chem at their local CC be able to get a 4 or 5 on the AP Chem test w/o additional study?

Would a student who took AP Chem and achieved or 4 or 5 on the AP exam be able to take and pass the Gen Chem final at their local CC w/o any additional study?

Are the courses truly interchangeable? Are the exams of equal difficulty? I wonder if anyone has studied this?

My nephew went to a SLAC and tried to bypass Calc 1 and 2 after taking AP Calc BC. Huge mistake. One year of BC will never ever get you past two rigorous Calc courses. He had to withdrawl and start over. Lost a semester. Kids skipping Calc AB are having the worst issues with it b


My oldest, based on similar advice, opted to retake Second semester calculus in college and said it was a waste of his time, everything was review. The only bonus was an easy A. Our younger son took BC Calculus his junior year in HS and the GMU co-curriular class for Matrix Algebra and Multivariable Calculus. He took differential equations fall freshman year and he was fine- got an A. I have heard similar experiences from parents of their peers. I think our HS must be exceptional in their math prep.


Okay Depends on the student and the school they matriculate too. Most struggle. Very little get easy A’s. Many top SLAC’s test you on your level too. That can and can not work.
Anonymous
Post 05/16/2018 08:02     Subject: Re:are AP exams really necessary?
"I teach history and it's the same thing. Kids come into my 200 and occasionally 300 level classes their very first semester and think they're hotshots. They are often brutally unprepared for college level work, unaware that there will not be hand-holding, and completely unable to write coherently."

Are you a professor or a lecturer?

If you are a professor, you need to talk to your colleagues about raising the prerequisites, not taking AP/only taking 5s or creating a first semester College Level Work Seminar/Bootcamp.