Anonymous
05/10/2018 08:28
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Everyone who thinks this torture is all right should have the same thing done to them starting with her.
Yeah, torturing random people is the exact same thing as torturing terrorists responsible for murdering thousands of people
Can you prove that ALL of the people they tortured were terrorists? It’s not like there was a trial held before they were tortured. I think torture is wrong and ineffective regardless, but find it hard to believe there weren’t any innocent people swept up in it.
There were.
Source?
https://www.propublica.org/article/gina-haspel-black-site-cia-nashiri-interrogation-cable
That publication should be called “propropaganda.” It was linked upthread and is so inaccurate that it should be removed.
But, regardless..... I will post one quote from the article. You claim this article proves that non-terrorists were tortured? The man featured in this article ADMITS to being a terrorist.
"Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, a 37-year-old Saudi, did not deny having been a terrorist operative for Osama bin Laden. He admitted his role in the bombing of the USS Cole in 2000, an attack that killed 17 Navy sailors. Captured two years later in Dubai, he talked openly about planning more attacks."
It's quite long. Read to the end.
Anonymous
05/10/2018 08:25
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Everyone who thinks this torture is all right should have the same thing done to them starting with her.
Yeah, torturing random people is the exact same thing as torturing terrorists responsible for murdering thousands of people
Can you prove that ALL of the people they tortured were terrorists? It’s not like there was a trial held before they were tortured. I think torture is wrong and ineffective regardless, but find it hard to believe there weren’t any innocent people swept up in it.
There were.
Source?
https://www.propublica.org/article/gina-haspel-black-site-cia-nashiri-interrogation-cable
That publication should be called “propropaganda.” It was linked upthread and is so inaccurate that it should be removed.
But, regardless..... I will post one quote from the article. You claim this article proves that non-terrorists were tortured? The man featured in this article ADMITS to being a terrorist.
"Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, a 37-year-old Saudi, did not deny having been a terrorist operative for Osama bin Laden. He admitted his role in the bombing of the USS Cole in 2000, an attack that killed 17 Navy sailors. Captured two years later in Dubai, he talked openly about planning more attacks."
Anonymous
05/10/2018 08:17
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Everyone who thinks this torture is all right should have the same thing done to them starting with her.
Yeah, torturing random people is the exact same thing as torturing terrorists responsible for murdering thousands of people
Can you prove that ALL of the people they tortured were terrorists? It’s not like there was a trial held before they were tortured. I think torture is wrong and ineffective regardless, but find it hard to believe there weren’t any innocent people swept up in it.
There were.
Source?
https://www.propublica.org/article/gina-haspel-black-site-cia-nashiri-interrogation-cable
Anonymous
05/10/2018 08:13
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Everyone who thinks this torture is all right should have the same thing done to them starting with her.
Yeah, torturing random people is the exact same thing as torturing terrorists responsible for murdering thousands of people
These same folk would be screaming for torture if it was their own loved one. Our military goes through waterboarding as part of their training. Same tortured prisoners had access to the World Cup in their own language while in Guantanamo.
Anonymous
05/10/2018 08:10
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Gina Haspel oversaw the torture of a pregnant woman. They punched Ms. Boudchar in her gravid uterus and chained her to hooks. The baby miraculously survived but was born severely underweight at just 4 pounds. Tell me again how Haspel is a feminist. The GOP is pro-life?
Please cite your source on this. It is not true.
Yes, it is true. Read the woman's story.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/opinion/gina-haspel-questions-cia.html
I think YOU need to read this woman’s story. The NY Times published it precisely for people like you - who wouldn’t bother to read and comprehend it - timing it with the confirmation of Gina Haspel. Here, I will help you comprehend so you don’t mistakenly claim that Haspel “oversaw” what happened to this woman...........
Quote from the article:
"I don’t know what Ms. Haspel’s part in what happened to me was or what she thinks about it.”
And, for the record..... some of the statements this woman makes is not true..... specifically....."All I know is what I read: she was involved in destroying evidence of torture.”
Haspel played no part in destroying the tapes. Listen to her testimony.
Anonymous
05/10/2018 08:03
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What was illegal about destroying those tapes?
18 USC 1519 - Destruction of Evidence
It's a federal crime to destroy or tamper with evidence. Those tapes were evidence of a crime. Torture is illegal under US law - 18 USC 2340. The US also signed and ratified the UN Convertion against Torture. And the US Constitution's 8th Amendment prohibts "cruel and unusual punishment".
BTW, 18 USC 2340 (Torture) subjects perpetrators to a fine and/or up to 20 years in prison, except where the victim died as a result of torture, in which case, the perpetrator may be subject to life in prison or a death sentence. One can also be charged for conspiracy under this statute, thus sweeping many more CIA and other administration officials into potentially being charged.
And the Torture Victim Prevention Act allows victims to sue perpetrators in US court, potentially exposing people like Gina Haspel to financial ruin in addition to long jail terms.
So, you can now understand why they destroyed the evidence....
By the way, some people think that torture didn't happen because Haspel did what she did "legally" based on the justifications provided by the Bybee and Yoo memos. Some also think that because these acts happened outside the US, they are not crimes under US law. Both of these assertions are wrong.
18 USC 2340 specifically contemplates that torture may be done "under color of law" and prohibits it even when done "under color of law". That is because, historically, torturers have often used the law to justify their torture. See the definition of the law embedded in this section of the code, "“torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control". This means if a person inflicts severe physical or mental pain or suffering upon a person in custody or physical control, they have committed torture, even if they think it is legally justified. Per the statute, there is no way to legally justify torture. This is why the Bybee/Yoo memos (if my memory serves me correctly) tried to assert that permitted "enhanced interrogation" techniques did not cause the "severe mental or physical pain or suffering" that is part of the definition of torture in the statute. The memos attempted to evade the torture statute by saying what was done was not torture, because the attorneys clearly knew that asserting it may have been torture but it was authorized or ordered was not a viable legal justification.
18 USC 2340A specifically addresses the location of the offense, jurisdiction --
"Offense.—
Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
(b)Jurisdiction.—There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender."
This means that a US national can be prosecuted for torture even where that torture took place outside the US. The place of torture and the nationality of the victim is irrelevant.
A torture perpetrator who is not a US national can also be prosecuted in US courts if the perpetrator is present in the US. This means those non-US nationals torture perpetrators to whom we rendered detainees that were then subsequently tortured can also be prosecuted in US courts if they ever are caught setting foot in the US. Plus, probably any US nationals who participated in rendition could be prosecuted for conspiracy to torture per the statute.
Yeah? What does it say about this???
And your point is what? That we throw out our prohibitions on toture because of the 9-11 acts? That we jettison the core values that make us us ? Who has really won then?
Or do you think that somehow if we just found and tortured the right people we could have prevented 9-11? the evidence doesn't support that idea. Torture isn't necessary to prevent such acts, and, in fact, may be counter-productive and part of what drives radicalization.
It is a fallacy the torture helps or protects. It does not.
Anonymous
05/10/2018 08:00
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Gina Haspel oversaw the torture of a pregnant woman. They punched Ms. Boudchar in her gravid uterus and chained her to hooks. The baby miraculously survived but was born severely underweight at just 4 pounds. Tell me again how Haspel is a feminist. The GOP is pro-life?
Please cite your source on this. It is not true.
Yes, it is true. Read the woman's story.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/opinion/gina-haspel-questions-cia.html
Anonymous
05/10/2018 07:54
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Everyone who thinks this torture is all right should have the same thing done to them starting with her.
Yeah, torturing random people is the exact same thing as torturing terrorists responsible for murdering thousands of people
Can you prove that ALL of the people they tortured were terrorists? It’s not like there was a trial held before they were tortured. I think torture is wrong and ineffective regardless, but find it hard to believe there weren’t any innocent people swept up in it.
There were.
Source?
Anonymous
05/10/2018 07:51
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Everyone who thinks this torture is all right should have the same thing done to them starting with her.
Yeah, torturing random people is the exact same thing as torturing terrorists responsible for murdering thousands of people
Can you prove that ALL of the people they tortured were terrorists? It’s not like there was a trial held before they were tortured. I think torture is wrong and ineffective regardless, but find it hard to believe there weren’t any innocent people swept up in it.
There were.
Anonymous
05/10/2018 07:51
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Everyone who thinks this torture is all right should have the same thing done to them starting with her.
Yeah, torturing random people is the exact same thing as torturing terrorists responsible for murdering thousands of people
Can you prove that ALL of the people they tortured were terrorists? It’s not like there was a trial held before they were tortured. I think torture is wrong and ineffective regardless, but find it hard to believe there weren’t any innocent people swept up in it.
Anonymous
05/10/2018 06:56
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Gina Haspel oversaw the torture of a pregnant woman. They punched Ms. Boudchar in her gravid uterus and chained her to hooks. The baby miraculously survived but was born severely underweight at just 4 pounds. Tell me again how Haspel is a feminist. The GOP is pro-life?
Please cite your source on this. It is not true.
Anonymous
05/10/2018 06:49
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Gina Haspel oversaw the torture of a pregnant woman. They punched Ms. Boudchar in her gravid uterus and chained her to hooks. The baby miraculously survived but was born severely underweight at just 4 pounds. Tell me again how Haspel is a feminist. The GOP is pro-life?
Anonymous
05/10/2018 02:29
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What was illegal about destroying those tapes?
18 USC 1519 - Destruction of Evidence
It's a federal crime to destroy or tamper with evidence. Those tapes were evidence of a crime. Torture is illegal under US law - 18 USC 2340. The US also signed and ratified the UN Convertion against Torture. And the US Constitution's 8th Amendment prohibts "cruel and unusual punishment".
BTW, 18 USC 2340 (Torture) subjects perpetrators to a fine and/or up to 20 years in prison, except where the victim died as a result of torture, in which case, the perpetrator may be subject to life in prison or a death sentence. One can also be charged for conspiracy under this statute, thus sweeping many more CIA and other administration officials into potentially being charged.
And the Torture Victim Prevention Act allows victims to sue perpetrators in US court, potentially exposing people like Gina Haspel to financial ruin in addition to long jail terms.
So, you can now understand why they destroyed the evidence....
Considering that what they did wasn't illegal, it's not evidence. It's a moot point, though I'm sure you'd love to see those protecting you prosecuted.
Anonymous
05/10/2018 00:23
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What was illegal about destroying those tapes?
18 USC 1519 - Destruction of Evidence
It's a federal crime to destroy or tamper with evidence. Those tapes were evidence of a crime. Torture is illegal under US law - 18 USC 2340. The US also signed and ratified the UN Convertion against Torture. And the US Constitution's 8th Amendment prohibts "cruel and unusual punishment".
BTW, 18 USC 2340 (Torture) subjects perpetrators to a fine and/or up to 20 years in prison, except where the victim died as a result of torture, in which case, the perpetrator may be subject to life in prison or a death sentence. One can also be charged for conspiracy under this statute, thus sweeping many more CIA and other administration officials into potentially being charged.
And the Torture Victim Prevention Act allows victims to sue perpetrators in US court, potentially exposing people like Gina Haspel to financial ruin in addition to long jail terms.
So, you can now understand why they destroyed the evidence....
Well now, didn't seem to work against Hillary and her merry band of data deleters and cell phone smashers now did it?
Anonymous
05/09/2018 23:03
Subject: Who is the new CIA head, Gina Haspel
Anonymous wrote:Everyone who thinks this torture is all right should have the same thing done to them starting with her.
Yeah, torturing random people is the exact same thing as torturing terrorists responsible for murdering thousands of people