Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How are black and Latino kids being denied access?

Read the darn Metis report. (Your taxes paid for it, the least you can do is try to get your money's worth out of it.) You can do a search on "barriers to access", if you don't want to read the whole thing.

Here's a great example of the type of reasoning contained in the Metis report:

"Data on applications and acceptances to elementary centers and secondary magnet and application programs show that Hispanic/Latino, Black/African American, Limited English Proficient (LEP), special education, and low-income students are less likely than White, Asian, and higher income students to be selected and enroll in these programs[u]. [u]As a result, Hispanic/Latino, Black/African American, LEP, special education, and low-income students are underrepresented in academically selective programs when compared with districtwide enrollment data."

Seriously, just apply some simple logical reasoning to the quoted text. They argue in the first sentence that data on applications and acceptances shows that certain groups are less likely to be selected and enroll. As a result, these groups are underrepresented.

So the reason for the underrepresentation of these groups in the program is that... wait for it... data shows these groups are selected and enroll less. Circular reasoning at its best.

Not really. Here are some possible reasons for underrepresentation by Group X: they apply less, they're selected less, they enroll less. Metis is saying here that it's all three. But it wouldn't have to be all three. And different reasons require different solutions.

The report doesn't differentiate between select and enroll - that's one aggregated concept. However, that's not a cause, that's an effect. The reason that these populations get selected and enroll less can't be because they get selected and enroll less.

With respect to them applying less... the report doesn't actually make that conclusion based on any statistical data, as far as I can tell. They theorize it might be true based on things like focus groups, but there doesn't appear to be any robust statistical finding.

Either way though, the report makes clear that those aren't the only reasons for the underrepresentations. The report goes on in that place to say: "[T]he lack of diversity and underrepresentation of some student subgroups in these programs suggests that the process may rely too heavily on one or more indicators or may need to consider additional measures of student ability. These indicators may include broadening the definition of gifted to include noncognitive measures such as motivation and persistence, using group-specific norms that benchmark student performance against school peers with comparable backgrounds, offering automatic admissions for students in the top 5-10% of sending elementary or middle schools in the district, or using other methods that are outlined in the report and utilized in other districts across the country."

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with where they're going here from a policy standpoint, but I just want to make sure everyone understands what the report is saying. It is not that the underrepresented groups have test scores that warrant inclusion (even if you assume all "barriers to access," like knowledge of the program and transportation issues, are removed) - it's actually the exact opposite. They're saying that if those groups don't test as well (and the report strongly suggests that they do not), then the county needs to use something other than test scores to ensure that the selection outcomes have proportionate distributions. In other words, "equitable" in this context doesn't necessarily mean equal access; it means equal outcomes, by whatever means are necessary to achieve them.

I know there are a lot of folks on this thread, so we cannot expect a common voice, but it would be great if folks could figure out what they REALLY want and advocate for it.

Or, rather, they need to figure out what is necessary vs. what would be great, and fight for that first.

Do they want a program with ONLY the top 1% or so of kids in the county?

Do they want access to specialized classes?

What if they could have access to specialized classes but those classes would be open to all interested students?

What if they could have access to specialized classes, but with the top 33% of students?

What is the actual goal? Is it the peer group or the specialized classes?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the magnets considered gifted programs? If not, I would think that like college, more than test scores would come into play.

More than test scores do come into play, which is clearly disclosed on the MCPS website, some parents believe acceptance should be based solely on the test. Some parents from certain schools are upset that there are more students this year. Last year only 800 applied whereas this year 4000+.

Well all this shows is there is a HUGE group of high achieving kids getting screwed. Just make it lottery instead. Or better yet, stop the stupid programs that bus these kids everywhere. Why do the gifted kids always get screwed. The6 usually have to decide between a magnet and a sport or music or other activity that can’t do because their school day is longer

Could you imagine if we bussed ESOL kids instead?

Anne Arundel County uses a lottery for its magnet programs. You still have to apply and qualify, but if there are more qualified kids than spots (which there usually are) then they just do a lottery rather than trying to rank kids. The lottery has *no* preferences - not race, home school, siblings, etc.

I really like this idea. Lang Lin and other GCC officers-Is this something that could be raised with MCPS for consideration for next year?

We can raise whatever ideas, but the end of the day some high performers will still get screwed. In this county, we have a large number of kids who deserve proper enrichment. I don't understand why we are putting a ceiling on our kids if they are able to do better? If there are 100 kids who meet the benchmark, then only allow 100 kids. If in a year there happen to be 300 kids, then allow those 300 kids whether it is at the home school or at the regional centers. I'm so confused as to why we bicker over a few points on some tests to see which kid is smarter than which. These kids have multiple assessments and grades. If your kid scores 1% of the nation on multiple tests, for god sake why can't we advocate for all these kids to get the proper curriculum in place for them. I strongly believe that the central office and the middle schools are responsible for taking the lead to get something solid in place. We, as their biggest advocates, need to stop arguing and see the larger picture here. Make all the comments you need on DCUM to help you vent your anger, but I encourage all parents to make sure they take time out to write to MCPS and make the proper appeal.

So your kids "deserve" enrichment. Fine. But what makes you think that that enrichment MUST take the form of a magnet school? You're proposing to fiat more seats at the magnets; I can just as easily propose to fiat more enrichment in your home school.

I didn't say it has to be at a regional magnet. I don't care where it is done, be it home school or at a regional center. As long as kids have access to the curriculum with proper teaching, that's all that matters.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the magnets considered gifted programs? If not, I would think that like college, more than test scores would come into play.

More than test scores do come into play, which is clearly disclosed on the MCPS website, some parents believe acceptance should be based solely on the test. Some parents from certain schools are upset that there are more students this year. Last year only 800 applied whereas this year 4000+.

Well all this shows is there is a HUGE group of high achieving kids getting screwed. Just make it lottery instead. Or better yet, stop the stupid programs that bus these kids everywhere. Why do the gifted kids always get screwed. The6 usually have to decide between a magnet and a sport or music or other activity that can’t do because their school day is longer

Could you imagine if we bussed ESOL kids instead?

Anne Arundel County uses a lottery for its magnet programs. You still have to apply and qualify, but if there are more qualified kids than spots (which there usually are) then they just do a lottery rather than trying to rank kids. The lottery has *no* preferences - not race, home school, siblings, etc.

I really like this idea. Lang Lin and other GCC officers-Is this something that could be raised with MCPS for consideration for next year?

We can raise whatever ideas, but the end of the day some high performers will still get screwed. In this county, we have a large number of kids who deserve proper enrichment. I don't understand why we are putting a ceiling on our kids if they are able to do better? If there are 100 kids who meet the benchmark, then only allow 100 kids. If in a year there happen to be 300 kids, then allow those 300 kids whether it is at the home school or at the regional centers. I'm so confused as to why we bicker over a few points on some tests to see which kid is smarter than which. These kids have multiple assessments and grades. If your kid scores 1% of the nation on multiple tests, for god sake why can't we advocate for all these kids to get the proper curriculum in place for them. I strongly believe that the central office and the middle schools are responsible for taking the lead to get something solid in place. We, as their biggest advocates, need to stop arguing and see the larger picture here. Make all the comments you need on DCUM to help you vent your anger, but I encourage all parents to make sure they take time out to write to MCPS and make the proper appeal.

So your kids "deserve" enrichment. Fine. But what makes you think that that enrichment MUST take the form of a magnet school? You're proposing to fiat more seats at the magnets; I can just as easily propose to fiat more enrichment in your home school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the magnets considered gifted programs? If not, I would think that like college, more than test scores would come into play.

More than test scores do come into play, which is clearly disclosed on the MCPS website, some parents believe acceptance should be based solely on the test. Some parents from certain schools are upset that there are more students this year. Last year only 800 applied whereas this year 4000+.

Well all this shows is there is a HUGE group of high achieving kids getting screwed. Just make it lottery instead. Or better yet, stop the stupid programs that bus these kids everywhere. Why do the gifted kids always get screwed. The6 usually have to decide between a magnet and a sport or music or other activity that can’t do because their school day is longer

Could you imagine if we bussed ESOL kids instead?

Anne Arundel County uses a lottery for its magnet programs. You still have to apply and qualify, but if there are more qualified kids than spots (which there usually are) then they just do a lottery rather than trying to rank kids. The lottery has *no* preferences - not race, home school, siblings, etc.

I really like this idea. Lang Lin and other GCC officers-Is this something that could be raised with MCPS for consideration for next year?

We can raise whatever ideas, but the end of the day some high performers will still get screwed. In this county, we have a large number of kids who deserve proper enrichment. I don't understand why we are putting a ceiling on our kids if they are able to do better? If there are 100 kids who meet the benchmark, then only allow 100 kids. If in a year there happen to be 300 kids, then allow those 300 kids whether it is at the home school or at the regional centers. I'm so confused as to why we bicker over a few points on some tests to see which kid is smarter than which. These kids have multiple assessments and grades. If your kid scores 1% of the nation on multiple tests, for god sake why can't we advocate for all these kids to get the proper curriculum in place for them. I strongly believe that the central office and the middle schools are responsible for taking the lead to get something solid in place. We, as their biggest advocates, need to stop arguing and see the larger picture here. Make all the comments you need on DCUM to help you vent your anger, but I encourage all parents to make sure they take time out to write to MCPS and make the proper appeal.

Anonymous wrote:
MPIA - If you want all data for everyone, email correspondence between staff the programs, reports that haven't been released to the public, data sets, minutes from meetings, etc. (For privacy or other reasons, some information may be redacted)
FERPA - Your own child's records.

However, MPIA won't get you all data for everyone unless MCPS already has that information in a public record that can be disclosed. MPIA requires MCPS to give you public records. MPIA doesn't require MCPS to answer your requests for data.

A public record is defined as the original or copy of any documentary material in any
form created or received by an agency in connection with the transaction of public
business. Included in this definition are written materials, books, photographs,
photocopies, firms, microfilms, records, tapes, computerized records, maps, drawings
and other materials.

http://www.marylandattorneygeneral.gov/OpenGov%20Documents/Appendix_I.pdf

Also, MCPS can (and possibly will) charge a fee for searching for the requested records.

Anonymous wrote:
MPIA - If you want all data for everyone, email correspondence between staff the programs, reports that haven't been released to the public, data sets, minutes from meetings, etc. (For privacy or other reasons, some information may be redacted)
FERPA - Your own child's records.

It is the raw scores that are most helpful (rather than just the percentiles).

MPIA - If you want all data for everyone, email correspondence between staff the programs, reports that haven't been released to the public, data sets, minutes from meetings, etc. (For privacy or other reasons, some information may be redacted)
FERPA - Your own child's records.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How are black and Latino kids being denied access?

Read the darn Metis report. (Your taxes paid for it, the least you can do is try to get your money's worth out of it.) You can do a search on "barriers to access", if you don't want to read the whole thing.

Here's a great example of the type of reasoning contained in the Metis report:

"Data on applications and acceptances to elementary centers and secondary magnet and application programs show that Hispanic/Latino, Black/African American, Limited English Proficient (LEP), special education, and low-income students are less likely than White, Asian, and higher income students to be selected and enroll in these programs[u]. [u]As a result, Hispanic/Latino, Black/African American, LEP, special education, and low-income students are underrepresented in academically selective programs when compared with districtwide enrollment data."

Seriously, just apply some simple logical reasoning to the quoted text. They argue in the first sentence that data on applications and acceptances shows that certain groups are less likely to be selected and enroll. As a result, these groups are underrepresented.

So the reason for the underrepresentation of these groups in the program is that... wait for it... data shows these groups are selected and enroll less. Circular reasoning at its best.

Not really. Here are some possible reasons for underrepresentation by Group X: they apply less, they're selected less, they enroll less. Metis is saying here that it's all three. But it wouldn't have to be all three. And different reasons require different solutions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Agree, you have a right to the data because it is a government agency. You should ask for ALL the raw data of applicants, anonymized, with certain fields: school, race, admissions status (admitted, waitlisted, rejected), average grades, map scores, in electronic form so you don't have to retype. You should have someone in your group who is familiar with data analysis to calculate the means/medians. Call the education reporters at Bethesda Magazine or The Washington Post and the Montgomery County GT people and have them submit something, too. The news organizations can file an expedited request saying the information is in the public interest and it's urgent because it will give families information they need for an appeal.

No, you have a right to see the public records, unless they fall under one of the exceptions in the Maryland Public Information Act. The MPIA requires MCPS to release the records that they already have. The MPIA does not require MCPS to create records for upon your request or to answer your questions about data. Before you put in an MPIA request, you really should take a look through the MPIA manual.

http://www.marylandattorneygeneral.gov/OpenGov%20Documents/PIA_manual_printable.pdf

When you are ready to make your MPIA request, it should go to Derek Turner, mpia@mcpsmd.org

Your information is correct but you're being too literally and arguing over nothing. No one meant that you could get private health information from MCPS for example.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How are black and Latino kids being denied access?

Read the darn Metis report. (Your taxes paid for it, the least you can do is try to get your money's worth out of it.) You can do a search on "barriers to access", if you don't want to read the whole thing.

Here's a great example of the type of reasoning contained in the Metis report:

"Data on applications and acceptances to elementary centers and secondary magnet and application programs show that Hispanic/Latino, Black/African American, Limited English Proficient (LEP), special education, and low-income students are less likely than White, Asian, and higher income students to be selected and enroll in these programs[u]. [u]As a result, Hispanic/Latino, Black/African American, LEP, special education, and low-income students are underrepresented in academically selective programs when compared with districtwide enrollment data."

Seriously, just apply some simple logical reasoning to the quoted text. They argue in the first sentence that data on applications and acceptances shows that certain groups are less likely to be selected and enroll. As a result, these groups are underrepresented.

So the reason for the underrepresentation of these groups in the program is that... wait for it... data shows these groups are selected and enroll less. Circular reasoning at its best.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the magnets considered gifted programs? If not, I would think that like college, more than test scores would come into play.

More than test scores do come into play, which is clearly disclosed on the MCPS website, some parents believe acceptance should be based solely on the test. Some parents from certain schools are upset that there are more students this year. Last year only 800 applied whereas this year 4000+.

Well all this shows is there is a HUGE group of high achieving kids getting screwed. Just make it lottery instead. Or better yet, stop the stupid programs that bus these kids everywhere. Why do the gifted kids always get screwed. The6 usually have to decide between a magnet and a sport or music or other activity that can’t do because their school day is longer

Could you imagine if we bussed ESOL kids instead?

Anne Arundel County uses a lottery for its magnet programs. You still have to apply and qualify, but if there are more qualified kids than spots (which there usually are) then they just do a lottery rather than trying to rank kids. The lottery has *no* preferences - not race, home school, siblings, etc.

I really like this idea. Lang Lin and other GCC officers-Is this something that could be raised with MCPS for consideration for next year?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the magnets considered gifted programs? If not, I would think that like college, more than test scores would come into play.

More than test scores do come into play, which is clearly disclosed on the MCPS website, some parents believe acceptance should be based solely on the test. Some parents from certain schools are upset that there are more students this year. Last year only 800 applied whereas this year 4000+.

Well all this shows is there is a HUGE group of high achieving kids getting screwed. Just make it lottery instead. Or better yet, stop the stupid programs that bus these kids everywhere. Why do the gifted kids always get screwed. The6 usually have to decide between a magnet and a sport or music or other activity that can’t do because their school day is longer

Could you imagine if we bussed ESOL kids instead?

Anne Arundel County uses a lottery for its magnet programs. You still have to apply and qualify, but if there are more qualified kids than spots (which there usually are) then they just do a lottery rather than trying to rank kids. The lottery has *no* preferences - not race, home school, siblings, etc.

Very interesting! A lottery combined with a wide net for testing/qualification could be a very fair way to proceed.

Anonymous wrote:I'm sure someone must be doing a records request. It would be foolish not to do so if you're in the position they are in. It probably won't change the outcome but I think the parents are owed an explanation.

I'm sure someone must be doing a records request. It would be foolish not to do so if you're in the position they are in. It probably won't change the outcome but I think the parents are owed an explanation.