Anonymous wrote:I'm a second year principal. I taught K-2nd for 20 years, I was a reading specialist for 5 years.

I'm curious, the poster who said that testing doesn't measure decoding....do you use F&P in 2-5th?

I meant, high stakes (state) testing. Kids who are in grade 5 who score a 2 or a 3 on the PARCC. The feedback we get on PARCC will never say "They scored low because they were unable to read the text". It will say: "Your child may struggle to point out which key facts the author uses to support an idea." or "Your child may have difficulty finding similarities and differences between two texts on the same topic." Which may be true, but the underlying reason isn't that the child doesn't know how key facts support an idea. Just ask the child to read the text out loud and you will see the child has great difficulty reading many of the words.

Anonymous wrote:
So you are basically saying that you cannot teach kids in a public school setting and that differentiation doesn't work. I'm not a proponent btw of the current teaching methods, but it is the teachers who promote them.

If it doesn't work, speak up.

We teachers aren't idiots. There is only so much we can do with the students we have and the time we have with them.

But we know that "we need more instructional time, fewer students, more after school tutoring for students, more summer school for students, and more teachers" is not the feedback anyone in the Central Office is interested in hearing from us.

They would love to hear how we collaboratively plan and use data feedback to differentiate, and use technology to infuse our language rich classroom with higher order thinking skills so students can have their academic needs magically met, and bring them all up to grade level and make the "college and career ready".

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP- My colleagues and I discuss this sometimes. Whenever we start making progress, something changes to knock us back down. We are ESOL teachers and our district was doing well testing students out of ESOL but then last year, they made it more difficult to move levels on the WIDA ACCESS test and all of sudden, teachers must not be doing their jobs since the test out rate was so dismal. You can't win.

Yes! And then they use a terrible formula to determine allocations so we actually lost allocation while our number of ESOL students increased. When I first started there was a 1:41 ratio but now I have 60 students on my caseload. There isn’t a way to provide meaningful language instruction to that many students in the limited time we have access to them. But I think that’s how they want it as they slowly seem to be phasing out the role of the ESOL teacher. Pretty soon it will be just another thing on the classroom teacher’s plate.

-another ESOL teacher (MCPS)

If the classroom teacher as a result has 5 less students, would it be worth it? How much can an ESOL teacher do with 60 students a week?

Only if they are all 1's or all 2's, etc. But throwing 1's-3's or even 4's into the same classroom of 26-30 with only 1 teacher (dual certified or not) is a recipe for disaster. You think test scores are low now, just wait until you see the result with that!

Plus the fact that those classes shouldn’t be sheltered English classes. ELLs need to have exposure to native English speakers in order for their own language skills to improve. It’s not considered a best practice. I get that it’s a way to reduce class sizes, but where is there space in buildings for all of these additional classrooms? I think it will roll out and central office will spin it to make it sound like a win win situation (smaller class sizes yay!), but there are very real logistical issues with the idea.

Where will these extra classrooms be located? How will the teacher have time to double dip the language objectives, which is currently the ESOL teacher’s responsibility? How to balance the needs of the ELLs with the needs of the native English speakers? Not all students need the intensive language support so would that mean native English speakers would be spending even more time working independently in these classes? The teacher would have to collect additional ESOL grades which the ESOL teachers are currently responsible for. How will the classroom teacher have time to schedule and administer the ACCESS test which is 4 parts and very time consuming? I could go on...

Anonymous wrote:My suburban Chicago school already does this. Every teacher has to be ESL certified to work in the school. We do have one push in ESL teacher to assist everyone with one specific language group, but the district saves a lot of money by making us all be dual certified. Of course, there's no additional money for those of us doing two jobs. Tbh, I won't be surprised if eventually all teachers have to be ESL AND sped certified nationwide.

And THAT will be when I leave the profession.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP- My colleagues and I discuss this sometimes. Whenever we start making progress, something changes to knock us back down. We are ESOL teachers and our district was doing well testing students out of ESOL but then last year, they made it more difficult to move levels on the WIDA ACCESS test and all of sudden, teachers must not be doing their jobs since the test out rate was so dismal. You can't win.

Yes! And then they use a terrible formula to determine allocations so we actually lost allocation while our number of ESOL students increased. When I first started there was a 1:41 ratio but now I have 60 students on my caseload. There isn’t a way to provide meaningful language instruction to that many students in the limited time we have access to them. But I think that’s how they want it as they slowly seem to be phasing out the role of the ESOL teacher. Pretty soon it will be just another thing on the classroom teacher’s plate.

-another ESOL teacher (MCPS)

If the classroom teacher as a result has 5 less students, would it be worth it? How much can an ESOL teacher do with 60 students a week?

Only if they are all 1's or all 2's, etc. But throwing 1's-3's or even 4's into the same classroom of 26-30 with only 1 teacher (dual certified or not) is a recipe for disaster. You think test scores are low now, just wait until you see the result with that!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:14 I'm not at your meetings. Internal issue. Sorry.
I'm sure for some kids some of this stuff is very hard due to disabilities etc., but my kids started kindergarten already knowing how to decode all words and how to add and subtract. These skills weren't hard to teach. Took one year. I taught them these skills myself using products sometimes from 1950 and didn't expect the school to. Good thing I guess. I really have no idea why teachers and school districts make things so complex.

Of course it is so much easier to teach a child and a one-to-one environment. Especially when it's your kid and you are likely coming from a research rich background.

However do you think you would be able to teach 20 to 25 or even 30 kids at the same time? Especially when they all have different needs and ability levels and you are being mandated to to come up with daily centers and math groups and reading groups and planning small group lessons?

So you are basically saying that you cannot teach kids in a public school setting and that differentiation doesn't work. I'm not a proponent btw of the current teaching methods, but it is the teachers who promote them.

If it doesn't work, speak up.

I would be quite surprised if you could find any teacher who says that "differentiation" in its current mode works. Because right now no teacher has the time to truly differentiate material because our class sizes are so large, we have so little planning time AND we are literally developing and writing the curriculum because there are no texts. Differentiation right now is assigning Laslo 3 fewer problems than Larla or perhaps scrambling the order for different sets of children or perhaps putting the questions into columns and directing students to choose 2 in Column 1, 3 in column 2 and1 in column 3. Note that none of these are true differentiation. But we say that they are and we get applauded for going the extra step.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP- My colleagues and I discuss this sometimes. Whenever we start making progress, something changes to knock us back down. We are ESOL teachers and our district was doing well testing students out of ESOL but then last year, they made it more difficult to move levels on the WIDA ACCESS test and all of sudden, teachers must not be doing their jobs since the test out rate was so dismal. You can't win.

Yes! And then they use a terrible formula to determine allocations so we actually lost allocation while our number of ESOL students increased. When I first started there was a 1:41 ratio but now I have 60 students on my caseload. There isn’t a way to provide meaningful language instruction to that many students in the limited time we have access to them. But I think that’s how they want it as they slowly seem to be phasing out the role of the ESOL teacher. Pretty soon it will be just another thing on the classroom teacher’s plate.

-another ESOL teacher (MCPS)

If the classroom teacher as a result has 5 less students, would it be worth it? How much can an ESOL teacher do with 60 students a week?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:12:14 I'm not at your meetings. Internal issue. Sorry.
I'm sure for some kids some of this stuff is very hard due to disabilities etc., but my kids started kindergarten already knowing how to decode all words and how to add and subtract. These skills weren't hard to teach. Took one year. I taught them these skills myself using products sometimes from 1950 and didn't expect the school to. Good thing I guess. I really have no idea why teachers and school districts make things so complex.

Of course it is so much easier to teach a child and a one-to-one environment. Especially when it's your kid and you are likely coming from a research rich background.

However do you think you would be able to teach 20 to 25 or even 30 kids at the same time? Especially when they all have different needs and ability levels and you are being mandated to to come up with daily centers and math groups and reading groups and planning small group lessons?

So you are basically saying that you cannot teach kids in a public school setting and that differentiation doesn't work. I'm not a proponent btw of the current teaching methods, but it is the teachers who promote them.

If it doesn't work, speak up.

My suburban Chicago school already does this. Every teacher has to be ESL certified to work in the school. We do have one push in ESL teacher to assist everyone with one specific language group, but the district saves a lot of money by making us all be dual certified. Of course, there's no additional money for those of us doing two jobs. Tbh, I won't be surprised if eventually all teachers have to be ESL AND sped certified nationwide.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP- My colleagues and I discuss this sometimes. Whenever we start making progress, something changes to knock us back down. We are ESOL teachers and our district was doing well testing students out of ESOL but then last year, they made it more difficult to move levels on the WIDA ACCESS test and all of sudden, teachers must not be doing their jobs since the test out rate was so dismal. You can't win.

Yes! And then they use a terrible formula to determine allocations so we actually lost allocation while our number of ESOL students increased. When I first started there was a 1:41 ratio but now I have 60 students on my caseload. There isn’t a way to provide meaningful language instruction to that many students in the limited time we have access to them. But I think that’s how they want it as they slowly seem to be phasing out the role of the ESOL teacher. Pretty soon it will be just another thing on the classroom teacher’s plate.

-another ESOL teacher (MCPS)

Yes, I think that this is the explanation behind the big push for additional endorsements and the school systems paying for cohorts. They see that a dual-certified teacher will save them money down the road. Not because the quality of the education will increase. They'll just be pushing more ELL kids into the classrooms of those of us with dual-certifications.

They are piloting this (using dually certified teachers to teach "language rich" classrooms) at Highland ES this year. It's been very hush hush about how it's going. I'd imagine it will roll out to other schools in the county after this year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP- My colleagues and I discuss this sometimes. Whenever we start making progress, something changes to knock us back down. We are ESOL teachers and our district was doing well testing students out of ESOL but then last year, they made it more difficult to move levels on the WIDA ACCESS test and all of sudden, teachers must not be doing their jobs since the test out rate was so dismal. You can't win.

Yes! And then they use a terrible formula to determine allocations so we actually lost allocation while our number of ESOL students increased. When I first started there was a 1:41 ratio but now I have 60 students on my caseload. There isn’t a way to provide meaningful language instruction to that many students in the limited time we have access to them. But I think that’s how they want it as they slowly seem to be phasing out the role of the ESOL teacher. Pretty soon it will be just another thing on the classroom teacher’s plate.

-another ESOL teacher (MCPS)

Yes, I think that this is the explanation behind the big push for additional endorsements and the school systems paying for cohorts. They see that a dual-certified teacher will save them money down the road. Not because the quality of the education will increase. They'll just be pushing more ELL kids into the classrooms of those of us with dual-certifications.

Anonymous wrote:PP- My colleagues and I discuss this sometimes. Whenever we start making progress, something changes to knock us back down. We are ESOL teachers and our district was doing well testing students out of ESOL but then last year, they made it more difficult to move levels on the WIDA ACCESS test and all of sudden, teachers must not be doing their jobs since the test out rate was so dismal. You can't win.

Yes! And then they use a terrible formula to determine allocations so we actually lost allocation while our number of ESOL students increased. When I first started there was a 1:41 ratio but now I have 60 students on my caseload. There isn’t a way to provide meaningful language instruction to that many students in the limited time we have access to them. But I think that’s how they want it as they slowly seem to be phasing out the role of the ESOL teacher. Pretty soon it will be just another thing on the classroom teacher’s plate.

-another ESOL teacher (MCPS)

Anonymous wrote:12:14 I'm not at your meetings. Internal issue. Sorry.
I'm sure for some kids some of this stuff is very hard due to disabilities etc., but my kids started kindergarten already knowing how to decode all words and how to add and subtract. These skills weren't hard to teach. Took one year. I taught them these skills myself using products sometimes from 1950 and didn't expect the school to. Good thing I guess. I really have no idea why teachers and school districts make things so complex.

Of course it is so much easier to teach a child and a one-to-one environment. Especially when it's your kid and you are likely coming from a research rich background.

However do you think you would be able to teach 20 to 25 or even 30 kids at the same time? Especially when they all have different needs and ability levels and you are being mandated to to come up with daily centers and math groups and reading groups and planning small group lessons?

Anonymous wrote:I'm a second year principal. I taught K-2nd for 20 years, I was a reading specialist for 5 years.

I'm curious, the poster who said that testing doesn't measure decoding....do you use F&P in 2-5th? If not, if you have any influence over curriculum decisions, I strongly recommend it. F&P measures decoding, fluency, and comprehension. You can see very clearly the type of errors a child makes and why, ie, are they missing their sight words, are they having trouble with vowels, are they making visual/meaning/syntax errors, what kinds of comprehension questions they are struggling with (ie, strict recall, inferences, etc). Once a teacher knows what the issue is, she can remediate it pretty easily as long as there is no underlying cognitive issue. If it is a decoding issue, that is a fairly easy fix and any teacher should be able to do this. In my school upper grade teachers who run into either decoding, fluency or comprehension issues all work on and remediate these issues.

What I see in our population is comprehension issues due to poverty, second language issues and lack of education among parents.....but it is interesting to hear some places are having decoding issues in upper grades. I've quite literally never heard of this in 25 years in the field. I suspect your students come from high poverty schools where the lower grade teachers are overwhelmed with behavior issues and other needs and cannot properly teach reading because of it. And likely, reading specialists are few and far between. So then they get to upper grades and they are behind. I'm fortunate to be in a lower income school with highly trained teachers, small class sizes and a really tight knit professional community, which all helps to ensure strong reading instruction. I know not everyone has that.

And as for the useless meetings? You think teachers have a lot of these? Absolutely. Admins have more. It is part of my mission to cut down on useless meetings at my school so we do a lot through emails and google docs.

NP. We are seeing this at our middle school as well. There has been a significant shift in the past 4-5 years in the ability of our student population to decode. It is affecting everything from ELA to SS to Math and Science. I believe your assessment about the elementary teachers being overwhelmed is correct. Unfortunately, by the time the children get to middle school it is a significant task to address the behavior issues and the skill issues simultaneously with such large class sizes and limited resources.

And the meetings I can handle. It is the other stuff that comes out of the meetings that I can't handle.

I'm a second year principal. I taught K-2nd for 20 years, I was a reading specialist for 5 years.

I'm curious, the poster who said that testing doesn't measure decoding....do you use F&P in 2-5th? If not, if you have any influence over curriculum decisions, I strongly recommend it. F&P measures decoding, fluency, and comprehension. You can see very clearly the type of errors a child makes and why, ie, are they missing their sight words, are they having trouble with vowels, are they making visual/meaning/syntax errors, what kinds of comprehension questions they are struggling with (ie, strict recall, inferences, etc). Once a teacher knows what the issue is, she can remediate it pretty easily as long as there is no underlying cognitive issue. If it is a decoding issue, that is a fairly easy fix and any teacher should be able to do this. In my school upper grade teachers who run into either decoding, fluency or comprehension issues all work on and remediate these issues.

What I see in our population is comprehension issues due to poverty, second language issues and lack of education among parents.....but it is interesting to hear some places are having decoding issues in upper grades. I've quite literally never heard of this in 25 years in the field. I suspect your students come from high poverty schools where the lower grade teachers are overwhelmed with behavior issues and other needs and cannot properly teach reading because of it. And likely, reading specialists are few and far between. So then they get to upper grades and they are behind. I'm fortunate to be in a lower income school with highly trained teachers, small class sizes and a really tight knit professional community, which all helps to ensure strong reading instruction. I know not everyone has that.

And as for the useless meetings? You think teachers have a lot of these? Absolutely. Admins have more. It is part of my mission to cut down on useless meetings at my school so we do a lot through emails and google docs.