"Is my whole marriage a sham of the patriarchy?" lol

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:... Also, in my scenario, the paralegal did not say “not interested”, but rather said sounds like fun, not now, maybe some other time. Is your answer still so clear?

I think what you are missing is that you want to believe a man who repeatedly asks a woman out who has declined several times in a polite way is actually engaging in courtship. This man is operating under a faulty "'no' might mean 'yes'" theory of courtship. No means no. Everywhere. At work. Out of work. On a date. With someone you hope to date.

The only appropriate response to the, "sounds like fun but I'm busy" form of "no" is "oh that's too bad, another time then maybe," said with a smile and a swift exit. Then never raise the issue again. The ball is in her court. If she is interested, she will ask you. Give us our agency. We are not voiceless people who have to be asked and re-asked until you magically catch us on our free night and we have to say yes to you. If we're interested, we'll be in touch.

Your post strikes a chord with me because I was just thinking this morning about how lucky I am to have ended up married to my wife. I had to ask her out 3 times before we actually went out on our first date. The first time, she gave me a "sure sounds great, maybe some other time" response, and the second time she said yes but then canceled a couple days later. After the send failed attempt, I assumed she was telling me no. But both male and female friends encouraged me to try again. To this day, I joke that she was trying to give me the brush off, and she insists she had legitimate conflicts.

Do you think I was harassing my wife? Should I have waited for her to ask me out on a date? Is my whole marriage a sham of the patriarchy?

I think you have an unrealistic view of how people communicate. You seem to believe that either (1) women are always crystal clear in understanding male intentions and in the messages they are sending, or (2) men are always crystal clear in understanding female intentions and in the messages they are hearing. I think most people are very poor at understanding each other and at making themselves understood.

If you really don't want to be asked out, then why wouldn't you say "No, I'm not interested in anything romantic with you"? No absolutely means no, but "sure sounds like fun, maybe some other time" doesn't always mean no.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course it's not difficult. Apparently you also should add that courtship does not involve dropping your pants out of the blue.

Or inviting someone to your office and then locking the door with a secret button on/under your desk.

But masturbating into plants? Is that still cool?

How about pubic hairs in coffee?

Do that, and the only job you'll be able to get is Supreme Court Justice -- much like U.S. Senator is one of the few job opportunities for child molesters.

It’s a new era, that was long ago - and look who was conducting the ‘inquisition’?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No. It is that easy to behave appropriately in the workplace, and no one gets fired for mildly flirting once. Cast a strong side-eye at any guy who says that, because chances are they are up to more than "courting."

+1. The guys I hear complaining about "how am I gonna find someone to date now" are pretty universally shitbirds.

This. And they're also the same people who say things like: "I'm a nice guy, but women hate nice guys."

In fairness, there are a million Hollywood movies and television shows where a woman was not interested until the intrepid male asked her a bunch of times, using increasingly novel methods to get her attention. It's easy to see where men get the idea.

Before the Internet, maybe this is what you did. Jeff Bridges met his wife at work, and I think the story is initially she didn't want to be bothered.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's pretty clear to me what's harassment and what isn't. Using your authority at work or your hiring power to try and gain sexual favors is harassment.

So a lawyer asks a paralegal at the same firm to go out for drinks. Makes suggestive comments about going out and having fun. Paralegal declines, saying it sounds like fun but has other plans this weekend, maybe some other time. Lawyer asks again the next week, and gets similar response. Pattern repeats several times over the course of a few months. Paralegal does not work directly for lawyer, but is at same firm. Is this sexual harassment?

Repeatedly asking a coworker out, after she's made it clear that she isn't interested, is generally regarded as harassment.

Are you saying that’s clear harassment, or just “generally considered” which is a little more ambiguous phrasing? Could not tell from your response.

Also, in my scenario, the paralegal did not say “not interested”, but rather said sounds like fun, not now, maybe some other time. Is your answer still so clear?

I think what you are missing is that you want to believe a man who repeatedly asks a woman out who has declined several times in a polite way is actually engaging in courtship. This man is operating under a faulty "'no' might mean 'yes'" theory of courtship. No means no. Everywhere. At work. Out of work. On a date. With someone you hope to date.

The only appropriate response to the, "sounds like fun but I'm busy" form of "no" is "oh that's too bad, another time then maybe," said with a smile and a swift exit. Then never raise the issue again. The ball is in her court. If she is interested, she will ask you. Give us our agency. We are not voiceless people who have to be asked and re-asked until you magically catch us on our free night and we have to say yes to you. If we're interested, we'll be in touch.

In fairness, there are a million Hollywood movies and television shows where a woman was not interested until the intrepid male asked her a bunch of times, using increasingly novel methods to get her attention. It's easy to see where men get the idea.

For most of history, women have expected men to "chase" them. The "you get to ask for a date once and then must never ask again" rule is a brand new, modern, invention. Young feminists are moving the goalposts and pretending like it was that was from the beginning.

Anonymous wrote:I also want to clarify the coffee shop thing. This is not a case of a woman in a coffee shop, making eye contact with people who say hello. This is a case of a woman ina coffee shop, doing her own thing, and people interrupting her to say re is a difference in intent, and interrupting someone is NOT “jut being friendly”. You smile and acknowledge someone making eye contact. Friendly. You try to engage someone ignoring you? Not friendly.

I'm sorry, but I don't think most people would consider this to be "sexual harassment." It also fails the Dwayne Johnson test as he'd probably get interrupted all the time by people at a coffeehouse. Basically, there seems to be no objective test for sexual harassment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's pretty clear to me what's harassment and what isn't. Using your authority at work or your hiring power to try and gain sexual favors is harassment.

So a lawyer asks a paralegal at the same firm to go out for drinks. Makes suggestive comments about going out and having fun. Paralegal declines, saying it sounds like fun but has other plans this weekend, maybe some other time. Lawyer asks again the next week, and gets similar response. Pattern repeats several times over the course of a few months. Paralegal does not work directly for lawyer, but is at same firm. Is this sexual harassment?

Repeatedly asking a coworker out, after she's made it clear that she isn't interested, is generally regarded as harassment.

Are you saying that’s clear harassment, or just “generally considered” which is a little more ambiguous phrasing? Could not tell from your response.

Also, in my scenario, the paralegal did not say “not interested”, but rather said sounds like fun, not now, maybe some other time. Is your answer still so clear?

I think what you are missing is that you want to believe a man who repeatedly asks a woman out who has declined several times in a polite way is actually engaging in courtship. This man is operating under a faulty "'no' might mean 'yes'" theory of courtship. No means no. Everywhere. At work. Out of work. On a date. With someone you hope to date.

The only appropriate response to the, "sounds like fun but I'm busy" form of "no" is "oh that's too bad, another time then maybe," said with a smile and a swift exit. Then never raise the issue again. The ball is in her court. If she is interested, she will ask you. Give us our agency. We are not voiceless people who have to be asked and re-asked until you magically catch us on our free night and we have to say yes to you. If we're interested, we'll be in touch.

In fairness, there are a million Hollywood movies and television shows where a woman was not interested until the intrepid male asked her a bunch of times, using increasingly novel methods to get her attention. It's easy to see where men get the idea.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That line between courtship and harassment is looking a lot blurrie now, isn’t it?

You lose all credibility regarding comprehension when you say “a lot blurrie”

That's unfortunate because you and I have been saying the same thing for this whole discussion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's pretty clear to me what's harassment and what isn't. Using your authority at work or your hiring power to try and gain sexual favors is harassment.

So a lawyer asks a paralegal at the same firm to go out for drinks. Makes suggestive comments about going out and having fun. Paralegal declines, saying it sounds like fun but has other plans this weekend, maybe some other time. Lawyer asks again the next week, and gets similar response. Pattern repeats several times over the course of a few months. Paralegal does not work directly for lawyer, but is at same firm. Is this sexual harassment?

Repeatedly asking a coworker out, after she's made it clear that she isn't interested, is generally regarded as harassment.

Are you saying that’s clear harassment, or just “generally considered” which is a little more ambiguous phrasing? Could not tell from your response.

Also, in my scenario, the paralegal did not say “not interested”, but rather said sounds like fun, not now, maybe some other time. Is your answer still so clear?

I think what you are missing is that you want to believe a man who repeatedly asks a woman out who has declined several times in a polite way is actually engaging in courtship. This man is operating under a faulty "'no' might mean 'yes'" theory of courtship. No means no. Everywhere. At work. Out of work. On a date. With someone you hope to date.

The only appropriate response to the, "sounds like fun but I'm busy" form of "no" is "oh that's too bad, another time then maybe," said with a smile and a swift exit. Then never raise the issue again. The ball is in her court. If she is interested, she will ask you. Give us our agency. We are not voiceless people who have to be asked and re-asked until you magically catch us on our free night and we have to say yes to you. If we're interested, we'll be in touch.

Anonymous wrote:I also want to clarify the coffee shop thing. This is not a case of a woman in a coffee shop, making eye contact with people who say hello. This is a case of a woman in a coffee shop, doing her own thing, and people interrupting her to say hello. Therre is a difference in intent, and interrupting someone is NOT “jut being friendly”. You smile and acknowledge someone making eye contact. Friendly. You try to engage someone ignoring you? Not friendly.

I thank autocorrect for making me look like an idiot. Corrected post above.

I also want to clarify the coffee shop thing. This is not a case of a woman in a coffee shop, making eye contact with people who say hello. This is a case of a woman ina coffee shop, doing her own thing, and people interrupting her to say re is a difference in intent, and interrupting someone is NOT “jut being friendly”. You smile and acknowledge someone making eye contact. Friendly. You try to engage someone ignoring you? Not friendly.

Anonymous wrote:That line between courtship and harassment is looking a lot blurrie now, isn’t it?

You lose all credibility regarding comprehension when you say “a lot blurrie”

Anonymous wrote:If you would not say it to or in front of your mother or daughter, you shouldn't say it at work. If you would not want another man saying it to your mother or daughter, you shouldn't say it at work.

As for "courtship" frankly I think that people should keep their personal lives separate from their professional lives. You don't need to date your colleagues. PEriod.

This! Read my mind.

I think that there are people on both sides of this coin. There are those that you can't smile at w/o them feeling violated. And there are those that you can't smile at w/o them thinking that's an all out invitation for them to.... help themselves.

Neither sign of that coin is a good thing.