Anonymous wrote:I'm another who's surprised by the amount of disdain expressed for PhDs here. Many PhD programs are super competitive and difficult to get admitted to (and finish). For my PhD program, there were 600 applications the year I applied. Of those, ~60 applicants were interviewed in person. Of those, 20 were offered admission. My cohort was 14 students (only 13 finished--one, randomly, dropped out after the first year to go to Yale for law school). So with a 3.3% admission rate, it is literally harder to get into my PhD program than to med school.

After my PhD (at age 26), I did four years of postdoctoral research training at two different institutions (the first an Ivy). I have a ton of education, about as much as my spouse, who is an MD.

Given how competitive these programs are these days, competitive applicants not only need to have top grades and GRE scores, but usually need to have already have co-authored peer-reviewed publications by the time they apply. I usually steer undergrads/recent grads away from my field, unless they are just one of those super wonky, bright kids who doesn't care that much about high pay and just couldn't see themselves doing anything else. It's a long, tough road.

Our 5yo kid goes back and forth about whether she wants to become mom or dad's type of Dr. I just tell her she should best both of us and be an MD/PhD.

Just be a productive member of society.
Many more PhD programs are not competitive whatsoever, yet still cannot accept a bloated number of people who want to stay in the country or avoid a real job.
I say this as someone who quit an econ PhD program at Princeton (at year 4) to go work in investment mgmt., and now I work on the ethics/legal side of Artificial Intelligence.
No way I could have stayed in the sleepy, slow world of academia and been happy or satisfied. Maybe medical research is different but we know way too many people from krappy programs who can't find their way out of a paper bag or just want to teach at Tier 3 schools forever and ever.

Anonymous wrote:I work with many PhD's. Everyone here is on a first-name basis. Even the CSO.

+1 Dear Lord, the OP's coworker is an insecure loser. Who does that??

I work with many PhD's. Everyone here is on a first-name basis. Even the CSO.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a whole lot of disrespect for a PhD degree on this thread, though I think much of it comes from ignorance...In my (math/stats related) field, a PhD typically takes 6 years, in my husband's 6, followed by several years of postdocs. Competition to get accepted into the top programs is fierce, and nowadays, many, if not most, students complete MS degrees and/or take research jobs prior to applying to the PhD program to look more competitive. My mother, uncle, aunt and grandfather are all medical doctors who, thankfully, admire what we do; and at least my mother, who observed what we had to go through to get our degrees, thought it was much more challenging intellectually than her education. Why are MDs (who get that title after 4 years of medical school, without much independent thought required) deserving of so much more respect? I don't mind being called by my first name (though students from abroad will typically use Prof or Dr) - except when I receive a letter from an MD, calling me Ms. X, signed Dr. Y (when their records ask for my profession, and they are well aware of what I do). Of course I realize they have other issues to worry about when fulfilling these administrative tasks, so it is likely (hopefully) not an intentional slight.

Did you seriously just put down an MD? An MD isn't just 4 years of med school.

No, but I asked why so many people here make fun of PhDs and implicitly consider the degree as inferior to an MD.
MD: 4 years of med school to earn the title, then several years of residency (length depending on specialization) to practice. Sometimes a fellowship.
PhD (in my field): 1-2 years of coursework for MS degree; then 2 years of coursework plus 4 years of research for the PhD. In my husband's field, you can add 2-5 years of postdoc to that (in mine, 1-2 years of postdoc are still the exception, but are becoming more common, unfortunately).
So YOU tell me why MDs deserve to be called Dr, while PhDs don't? As I said, I personally really don't care how people address me - but I do think this thread is an insult to my profession.

LOL, at an "insult to your profession"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a whole lot of disrespect for a PhD degree on this thread, though I think much of it comes from ignorance...In my (math/stats related) field, a PhD typically takes 6 years, in my husband's 6, followed by several years of postdocs. Competition to get accepted into the top programs is fierce, and nowadays, many, if not most, students complete MS degrees and/or take research jobs prior to applying to the PhD program to look more competitive. My mother, uncle, aunt and grandfather are all medical doctors who, thankfully, admire what we do; and at least my mother, who observed what we had to go through to get our degrees, thought it was much more challenging intellectually than her education. Why are MDs (who get that title after 4 years of medical school, without much independent thought required) deserving of so much more respect? I don't mind being called by my first name (though students from abroad will typically use Prof or Dr) - except when I receive a letter from an MD, calling me Ms. X, signed Dr. Y (when their records ask for my profession, and they are well aware of what I do). Of course I realize they have other issues to worry about when fulfilling these administrative tasks, so it is likely (hopefully) not an intentional slight.

Did you seriously just put down an MD? An MD isn't just 4 years of med school.

No, but I asked why so many people here make fun of PhDs and implicitly consider the degree as inferior to an MD.
MD: 4 years of med school to earn the title, then several years of residency (length depending on specialization) to practice. Sometimes a fellowship.
PhD (in my field): 1-2 years of coursework for MS degree; then 2 years of coursework plus 4 years of research for the PhD. In my husband's field, you can add 2-5 years of postdoc to that (in mine, 1-2 years of postdoc are still the exception, but are becoming more common, unfortunately).
So YOU tell me why MDs deserve to be called Dr, while PhDs don't? As I said, I personally really don't care how people address me - but I do think this thread is an insult to my profession.

It's not useful to call a PhD doctor unless you are at a university. Like, should my friend who has a joke PhD (yes, she had a friend get her into the program because her test scores were THAT BAD and her writing is totally incoherent) get that title? Should my friend who has a doctorate in art history get called "Doctor" when he's at work as a web designer? Seriously? Fuck off you insecure twat.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm another who's surprised by the amount of disdain expressed for PhDs here. Many PhD programs are super competitive and difficult to get admitted to (and finish). For my PhD program, there were 600 applications the year I applied. Of those, ~60 applicants were interviewed in person. Of those, 20 were offered admission. My cohort was 14 students (only 13 finished--one, randomly, dropped out after the first year to go to Yale for law school). So with a 3.3% admission rate, it is literally harder to get into my PhD program than to med school.

After my PhD (at age 26), I did four years of postdoctoral research training at two different institutions (the first an Ivy). I have a ton of education, about as much as my spouse, who is an MD.

Given how competitive these programs are these days, competitive applicants not only need to have top grades and GRE scores, but usually need to have already have co-authored peer-reviewed publications by the time they apply. I usually steer undergrads/recent grads away from my field, unless they are just one of those super wonky, bright kids who doesn't care that much about high pay and just couldn't see themselves doing anything else. It's a long, tough road.

Our 5yo kid goes back and forth about whether she wants to become mom or dad's type of Dr. I just tell her she should best both of us and be an MD/PhD.

PP, you sound like you went to school only so you could command respect (especially bc you went out of your way to say you went to an Ivy ). Just do your thing and stop wearing your PhD like a chip on your shoulder... Nobody cares. Especially because you're a dime a dozen in this town. If you want them to care, you did it all for the wrong reasons.

PP. Nope, not at all. I just knew I was really interested in the subject matter, and that I loved being in school--I was basically a nerd. I only provided the other data points to show that the training entailed in and after PhD programs can be demanding and rigorous.

Anonymous wrote:Your coworker is an insecure ass. Only MDs get the title Dr unless it's college students speaking to their professor. Is she stupid?

You are stupid to assert this. You are WRONG.

Anonymous wrote:I'm another who's surprised by the amount of disdain expressed for PhDs here. Many PhD programs are super competitive and difficult to get admitted to (and finish). For my PhD program, there were 600 applications the year I applied. Of those, ~60 applicants were interviewed in person. Of those, 20 were offered admission. My cohort was 14 students (only 13 finished--one, randomly, dropped out after the first year to go to Yale for law school). So with a 3.3% admission rate, it is literally harder to get into my PhD program than to med school.

After my PhD (at age 26), I did four years of postdoctoral research training at two different institutions (the first an Ivy). I have a ton of education, about as much as my spouse, who is an MD.

Given how competitive these programs are these days, competitive applicants not only need to have top grades and GRE scores, but usually need to have already have co-authored peer-reviewed publications by the time they apply. I usually steer undergrads/recent grads away from my field, unless they are just one of those super wonky, bright kids who doesn't care that much about high pay and just couldn't see themselves doing anything else. It's a long, tough road.

Our 5yo kid goes back and forth about whether she wants to become mom or dad's type of Dr. I just tell her she should best both of us and be an MD/PhD.

PP, you sound like you went to school only so you could command respect (especially bc you went out of your way to say you went to an Ivy ). Just do your thing and stop wearing your PhD like a chip on your shoulder... Nobody cares. Especially because you're a dime a dozen in this town. If you want them to care, you did it all for the wrong reasons.

Your coworker is an insecure ass. Only MDs get the title Dr unless it's college students speaking to their professor. Is she stupid?

OP, there must be some sort of back story to this. Most sane people would not make this sort of request. There are a couple of possibilities. One option is that the "Doctor" is working in an environment in which all the lawyers treat non-lawyers poorly a she feels the need lash out where she can. Truth is that most attorneys act as though they are the smartest people in the room. It can wear on you after a while. Along with this, it sounds like you are new-ish to the situation and probably have been too informal with her so she feels like she wants to set you straight while you are still malleable.

There are a couple people in my office with whom I'm on a first name basis but they are sticklers with other people about making sure they are addressed by their title. The difference is that I was originally and still continue to be quite polite with them and make sure I don't assume anything with them. If I need something from them I always initiate the interaction by ASKING: "may I have a few moments of your time?" (or something to that effect). The thing is that many of these folks feel like everyone treats them as "the help" and they want to feel valued. I also ALWAYS say "thank you" and occasionally I find ways to complement them one something.

Ask yourself honestly... did you engage with them based on an assumption that they were there to merely give you the documents you needed?

I'm another who's surprised by the amount of disdain expressed for PhDs here. Many PhD programs are super competitive and difficult to get admitted to (and finish). For my PhD program, there were 600 applications the year I applied. Of those, ~60 applicants were interviewed in person. Of those, 20 were offered admission. My cohort was 14 students (only 13 finished--one, randomly, dropped out after the first year to go to Yale for law school). So with a 3.3% admission rate, it is literally harder to get into my PhD program than to med school.

After my PhD (at age 26), I did four years of postdoctoral research training at two different institutions (the first an Ivy). I have a ton of education, about as much as my spouse, who is an MD.

Given how competitive these programs are these days, competitive applicants not only need to have top grades and GRE scores, but usually need to have already have co-authored peer-reviewed publications by the time they apply. I usually steer undergrads/recent grads away from my field, unless they are just one of those super wonky, bright kids who doesn't care that much about high pay and just couldn't see themselves doing anything else. It's a long, tough road.

Our 5yo kid goes back and forth about whether she wants to become mom or dad's type of Dr. I just tell her she should best both of us and be an MD/PhD.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Ph.D wife always says: unless you're ready to say "yes" when someone yells "IS ANYONE ON THIS PLANE A DOCTOR?" then just don't.

Got her Doctor Who tshirt that said "Not that kind of Doctor..."

Haha, perfect! I work in health care and we all roll our eyes when patients or family members who are PhD's asked to be addressed as Dr. It's is actually confusing and a little dumb because in the hospital setting the staff are then going to assume you are a 'real' doctor and speak to you accordingly. Then, you won't understand what is being said, and be left with tons of questions.

I have a Ph. D and have been in a health care setting for my child where a physician who, in the course of taking a social history of our family learned I had a Ph. D. He then introduced me to a bunch of other health care people who came into the exam room as Dr. So, not always.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a whole lot of disrespect for a PhD degree on this thread, though I think much of it comes from ignorance...In my (math/stats related) field, a PhD typically takes 6 years, in my husband's 6, followed by several years of postdocs. Competition to get accepted into the top programs is fierce, and nowadays, many, if not most, students complete MS degrees and/or take research jobs prior to applying to the PhD program to look more competitive. My mother, uncle, aunt and grandfather are all medical doctors who, thankfully, admire what we do; and at least my mother, who observed what we had to go through to get our degrees, thought it was much more challenging intellectually than her education. Why are MDs (who get that title after 4 years of medical school, without much independent thought required) deserving of so much more respect? I don't mind being called by my first name (though students from abroad will typically use Prof or Dr) - except when I receive a letter from an MD, calling me Ms. X, signed Dr. Y (when their records ask for my profession, and they are well aware of what I do). Of course I realize they have other issues to worry about when fulfilling these administrative tasks, so it is likely (hopefully) not an intentional slight.

Did you seriously just put down an MD? An MD isn't just 4 years of med school.

No, but I asked why so many people here make fun of PhDs and implicitly consider the degree as inferior to an MD.
MD: 4 years of med school to earn the title, then several years of residency (length depending on specialization) to practice. Sometimes a fellowship.
PhD (in my field): 1-2 years of coursework for MS degree; then 2 years of coursework plus 4 years of research for the PhD. In my husband's field, you can add 2-5 years of postdoc to that (in mine, 1-2 years of postdoc are still the exception, but are becoming more common, unfortunately).
So YOU tell me why MDs deserve to be called Dr, while PhDs don't? As I said, I personally really don't care how people address me - but I do think this thread is an insult to my profession.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe you caught her in a day when she had been dealing with other instances of disrespect. I read an article recently (maybe here on dcum) where female physicians were more likely to be called by their first names where their male counterparts were referred to as "Dr.". After reading it I couldn't remember an instance where that had happened to me and but I just had to wait two short days later. Three people, two women and 1 man, all PhDs, waiting to be called to speak on a panel. The person sent to get us walks in and he says, "Dr. Man, Sue, and Jane we are ready for you."

Never one to get ruffled by something like this, there was moment of "hold up!, we are all PhDs".

All that to say, maybe you were the last straw.

OP here. Maybe.

And maybe I'm just projecting, but it seems something that older women do to younger women (I'm 30). Male coworkers never try this stuff with me. I wouldn't have known she was a PhD until she told me, as I've only ever communicated by email with her. 90% of my coworkers are Phds, have Master's degrees or are lawyers. And it's not a fake PhD like the Doctorate of Education that you all are talking about.

I was kind of with you up until you said this. Maybe you were just rude in your e.ail and she isn't taking your shot.

--a tired PhD candidate in education

I always begin formally with people Mr./Mrs./Ms./Dr. if we haven't been introduced. If, when you initially meet someone, they say "Hi, I'm Jill" then calling her Dr. Smith is unnecessary. But when in doubt, always be formal. No one is every offended by being called by the title they earned.