Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PPs who think ODD is the result of bad parenting have no clue what they're talking about. I bet they think these kids just need a good spanking. Morons.

No, but the parents clearly need parenting classes. The ODD did not rise up in a vacuum. It represents a culmination of conditions that facilitated its development and one MAJOR condition is inconsistent parenting and poor disciplining.

In furtherance of consideration of poor choices, note the context of this discussion. OP has received a diagnosis of ODD for the child. Instead of pursuing discussions with the diagnostician or trained and licensed therapists, OP has turned to this anonymous forum and is asking for help. Hhhhmm. Interesting approach. And OP wonders how it all got this way. Gee, good question.

As someone who DOES work with high risk kids who have received diagnoses of ODD my recommendation is to immediately begin working with licensed therapists, individual and family, and then to do what those therapists suggest during sessions.

I'd be willing to bet that you are a "therapist" looking to help these families empty their wallets by offering them parenting classes. ODD can be exacerbated by bad parenting, of course, but it is absolutely NOT caused by it. It's genetic. Some kids get it and some don't within the same family.

I don't know how to say this other than very bluntly. You are wrong. ODD is not genetic and to say it is really demonstrates that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

WebMD disagrees with you (http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/oppositional-defiant-disorder), as does this NIH study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2634815/.

Here's what WebMD says:
-----------------------------------------
The exact cause of ODD is not known, but it is believed that a combination of biological, genetic, and environmental factors may contribute to the condition.

Biological: Some studies suggest that defects in or injuries to certain areas of the brain can lead to serious behavioral problems in children. In addition, ODD has been linked to abnormal functioning of certain types of brain chemicals, or neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters help nerve cells in the brain communicate with each other. If these chemicals are not working properly, messages may not make it through the brain correctly, leading to symptoms of ODD, and other mental illnesses. Further, many children and teens with ODD also have other mental illnesses, such as ADHD, learning disorders, depression, or an anxiety disorder, which may contribute to their behavior problems.
Genetics: Many children and teens with ODD have close family members with mental illnesses, including mood disorders, anxiety disorders, and personality disorders. This suggests that a vulnerability to develop ODD may be inherited.
Environmental: Factors such as a dysfunctional family life, a family history of mental illnesses and/or substance abuse, and inconsistent discipline by parents may contribute to the development of behavior disorders.
-----------------------------------------

You seem to be a good illustration of the Dunning Kruger effect -- you are so certain that you're an expert that you don't perceive your ignorance of some very basic facts. One such fact is that people who actually know stuff about this subject don't tend to talk in such absolutes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The type of home life and parenting that is required for kids with ODD to be successful is often the type that parents just don't want to do and I don't blame them.

A very small world and consistent routine for years on end is what can be very helpful. This can mean no sports, no classes, no extras on the weekends, same school, same camp (if needed) every year. Weekends have to have the exact same routine. Not a lot of outings and if there are they must be the same ones all the time.

Even when parents manage to do that, what can happen is that their child's behavior stabilizes because they child's anxiety has been greatly reduced and they feel "in control". It's of course an artificial control bc it's the parents scheduling that makes the child's life so rigid. But parents see their child stable and assume he/she is now ready to do all the things NT peers can and it's not the case. There is always the option of introducing something new in the schedule but the adjustment period can be long.

Is there ANY support for this at all? Severely restricting an "ODD" teenager like this seems like a recipe for severe rebellion.

This has to start early and can't just suddenly start in teenage years. Or it could, but it would be really tough for the first few months.

Remember that a child with ODD is likely to have other comorbid issues as already pointed out. They are not NT kids and the parenting for these kids has to be different. Vastly different.

Maybe, but I still can't see how any therapist would recommend basically socially isolating a child or being so rigid. I get that routine is important, and reducing stimulation/over-scheduling might be important too. But what you describe sounds extreme, and not likely to work for a teenager even if it does for an elementary student.

You are thinking about this from the perspective of a parent of an NT child.

First, this is by no means social isolation. The child would attend school and would be out and about in the world with the family. I am sure that something like a class/activity could be added in but it can't be like with an NT kid where you might switch to different classes or do different activities a few times a year. That's what makes joining the activities/sports/classes so hard, they don't last long enough and aren't consistent with the same kids for years on end. A very anxious child doesn't deal well with ever changing situations even if that change is once every 10 -12 weeks.

It is rigid, structured and very controlled but for a highly anxious child or teen all of that adds up to the predictability they need to feel comfortable and helps to diminish the need for the oppositional behaviors.

+100 Typical children and adults would find the structure confining but an ODD child actually flourishes with structure and "rigidity". This dichotomy is what makes it so difficult for parents of an ODD child to understand and, frequently, why the uneven parenting compounds the child's issues rather than supports their resolution.

Please point me to a published source saying that rigidly restricting what a teen can do is therepeutic for ODD or anxiety. You sound like one of those bullshit "tough love" people.

Also you appear to be conflating anxiety with ODD.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The type of home life and parenting that is required for kids with ODD to be successful is often the type that parents just don't want to do and I don't blame them.

A very small world and consistent routine for years on end is what can be very helpful. This can mean no sports, no classes, no extras on the weekends, same school, same camp (if needed) every year. Weekends have to have the exact same routine. Not a lot of outings and if there are they must be the same ones all the time.

Even when parents manage to do that, what can happen is that their child's behavior stabilizes because they child's anxiety has been greatly reduced and they feel "in control". It's of course an artificial control bc it's the parents scheduling that makes the child's life so rigid. But parents see their child stable and assume he/she is now ready to do all the things NT peers can and it's not the case. There is always the option of introducing something new in the schedule but the adjustment period can be long.

Is there ANY support for this at all? Severely restricting an "ODD" teenager like this seems like a recipe for severe rebellion.

This has to start early and can't just suddenly start in teenage years. Or it could, but it would be really tough for the first few months.

Remember that a child with ODD is likely to have other comorbid issues as already pointed out. They are not NT kids and the parenting for these kids has to be different. Vastly different.

Maybe, but I still can't see how any therapist would recommend basically socially isolating a child or being so rigid. I get that routine is important, and reducing stimulation/over-scheduling might be important too. But what you describe sounds extreme, and not likely to work for a teenager even if it does for an elementary student.

You are thinking about this from the perspective of a parent of an NT child.

First, this is by no means social isolation. The child would attend school and would be out and about in the world with the family. I am sure that something like a class/activity could be added in but it can't be like with an NT kid where you might switch to different classes or do different activities a few times a year. That's what makes joining the activities/sports/classes so hard, they don't last long enough and aren't consistent with the same kids for years on end. A very anxious child doesn't deal well with ever changing situations even if that change is once every 10 -12 weeks.

It is rigid, structured and very controlled but for a highly anxious child or teen all of that adds up to the predictability they need to feel comfortable and helps to diminish the need for the oppositional behaviors.

+100 Typical children and adults would find the structure confining but an ODD child actually flourishes with structure and "rigidity". This dichotomy is what makes it so difficult for parents of an ODD child to understand and, frequently, why the uneven parenting compounds the child's issues rather than supports their resolution.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The type of home life and parenting that is required for kids with ODD to be successful is often the type that parents just don't want to do and I don't blame them.

A very small world and consistent routine for years on end is what can be very helpful. This can mean no sports, no classes, no extras on the weekends, same school, same camp (if needed) every year. Weekends have to have the exact same routine. Not a lot of outings and if there are they must be the same ones all the time.

Even when parents manage to do that, what can happen is that their child's behavior stabilizes because they child's anxiety has been greatly reduced and they feel "in control". It's of course an artificial control bc it's the parents scheduling that makes the child's life so rigid. But parents see their child stable and assume he/she is now ready to do all the things NT peers can and it's not the case. There is always the option of introducing something new in the schedule but the adjustment period can be long.

Is there ANY support for this at all? Severely restricting an "ODD" teenager like this seems like a recipe for severe rebellion.

This has to start early and can't just suddenly start in teenage years. Or it could, but it would be really tough for the first few months.

Remember that a child with ODD is likely to have other comorbid issues as already pointed out. They are not NT kids and the parenting for these kids has to be different. Vastly different.

Maybe, but I still can't see how any therapist would recommend basically socially isolating a child or being so rigid. I get that routine is important, and reducing stimulation/over-scheduling might be important too. But what you describe sounds extreme, and not likely to work for a teenager even if it does for an elementary student.

You are thinking about this from the perspective of a parent of an NT child.

First, this is by no means social isolation. The child would attend school and would be out and about in the world with the family. I am sure that something like a class/activity could be added in but it can't be like with an NT kid where you might switch to different classes or do different activities a few times a year. That's what makes joining the activities/sports/classes so hard, they don't last long enough and aren't consistent with the same kids for years on end. A very anxious child doesn't deal well with ever changing situations even if that change is once every 10 -12 weeks.

It is rigid, structured and very controlled but for a highly anxious child or teen all of that adds up to the predictability they need to feel comfortable and helps to diminish the need for the oppositional behaviors.

Anonymous wrote:
Is there ANY support for this at all? Severely restricting an "ODD" teenager like this seems like a recipe for severe rebellion.

If a child has severe difficulty being flexible and making adaptations, switching gears, etc, keeping things as consistent and predictable as possible could make things a lot easier. Of course all the while you should be working with the child on cognitive flexibility.

As the parent of a kid who has been diagnosed with ODD (in addition to the PRIMARY dx of depression and anxiety), I would say that the program outlined above emphasizes predictability at the expense of other factors. What kids with anxiety also need is structured activity and responsibility, at a level that is still quite difficult to achieve in the home environment, especially for teens. Basically, you do have to have their time COMPLETELY scheduled--along the lines of what you'd find at a boarding school, where "free time" is minimized.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The type of home life and parenting that is required for kids with ODD to be successful is often the type that parents just don't want to do and I don't blame them.

A very small world and consistent routine for years on end is what can be very helpful. This can mean no sports, no classes, no extras on the weekends, same school, same camp (if needed) every year. Weekends have to have the exact same routine. Not a lot of outings and if there are they must be the same ones all the time.

Even when parents manage to do that, what can happen is that their child's behavior stabilizes because they child's anxiety has been greatly reduced and they feel "in control". It's of course an artificial control bc it's the parents scheduling that makes the child's life so rigid. But parents see their child stable and assume he/she is now ready to do all the things NT peers can and it's not the case. There is always the option of introducing something new in the schedule but the adjustment period can be long.

Is there ANY support for this at all? Severely restricting an "ODD" teenager like this seems like a recipe for severe rebellion.

This has to start early and can't just suddenly start in teenage years. Or it could, but it would be really tough for the first few months.

Remember that a child with ODD is likely to have other comorbid issues as already pointed out. They are not NT kids and the parenting for these kids has to be different. Vastly different.

Maybe, but I still can't see how any therapist would recommend basically socially isolating a child or being so rigid. I get that routine is important, and reducing stimulation/over-scheduling might be important too. But what you describe sounds extreme, and not likely to work for a teenager even if it does for an elementary student.