Anonymous
05/31/2017 11:57
Subject: Is Boy Scouts a thing now? DS wants to get into it, but I have some concerns.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I am the poster who started writing about my issues with the Boy Scouts and their exclusion of atheists. I want to say a couple of things and then I'm going to exit this thread. First of all, I am under no illusion that the Boy Scouts and especially individual troops are, on the whole, malevolent. I think that they do a lot of good for a lot of boys. While some troops are, of course, better than others, I don't doubt that, in this area in particular, they do a lot of good. In fact, I think that the organization as a whole is just a couple of reforms from all ing their remaining major issues.
That said, the people suggesting that the discrimination against atheists is no big deal and that the BSA is acting like other religious organizations are missing the point. There is a BIG difference between promoting a specific belief system and excluding a specific belief system. It is the difference between, for example, the Mormons saying that only Mormons are welcome in our temple (perfectly normal) and saying that absolutely everyone except Jews are welcome in our temple, which is bigotry. As many people have pointed out, the BSA does not use its status as a private organization to promote any one single belief system. What people don't like to point out is that the BSA does use its status as a private organization to exclude, marginalize, and stigmatized one particular belief system.
I hope that they eventually do better.
I've appreciated hearing your perspective. I do think that it's all about how you frame it. Boy Scouts does promote a system of belief that acknowledges that some form of faith in a higher being guides your morals. Many of us that are religious (I'm a very liberal Catholic) find that IMPORTANT! The point of BSA is charter-building and just because you think that character is unrelated to God doesn't meant that I (or BSA) needs to agree with you. I can respect you, but I don't have to agree with you.
Do you feel the same way about Alcoholics Anonymous? Are they too bigoted, striving to marginalize you.
Actually, AA is an interesting comparison. It is an overtly religious organization but there are AA meetings that are specifically designed to be non-religious in order to accommodate atheists and agnostics. That said, it has long been the practice of courts in the US to sentence drunk drivers and other convicts who had committed alcohol-related offenses to attend AA meetings. This practice, which I did find inappropriate, was ultimately ruled to be unconstitutional because it violated the Establishment Clause. The rulings against coercive participation in AA helped in the development of a number of non-religious recovery programs as courts sought out Constitutional alternatives.
While this is an interesting aside, where it intersects with the BSA is in the government funding and support that the BSA received over the course of its history that went far beyond what other private organizations received. This was also a violation of the Establishment Clause. There has been a lot of back and forth about just how much support the government provided (I think that it used to be a lot more before this issue started getting traction) but it's still not none and, for everyone talking about the BSA as a private organization that can set whatever policies it wants, this should be a concern.
http://militaryatheists.org/news/2012/07/time-to-end-federal-support-of-boy-scout-discrimination/
Anonymous
05/31/2017 11:34
Subject: Is Boy Scouts a thing now? DS wants to get into it, but I have some concerns.
Anonymous wrote:I am the poster who started writing about my issues with the Boy Scouts and their exclusion of atheists. I want to say a couple of things and then I'm going to exit this thread. First of all, I am under no illusion that the Boy Scouts and especially individual troops are, on the whole, malevolent. I think that they do a lot of good for a lot of boys. While some troops are, of course, better than others, I don't doubt that, in this area in particular, they do a lot of good. In fact, I think that the organization as a whole is just a couple of reforms from all ing their remaining major issues.
That said, the people suggesting that the discrimination against atheists is no big deal and that the BSA is acting like other religious organizations are missing the point. There is a BIG difference between promoting a specific belief system and excluding a specific belief system. It is the difference between, for example, the Mormons saying that only Mormons are welcome in our temple (perfectly normal) and saying that absolutely everyone except Jews are welcome in our temple, which is bigotry. As many people have pointed out, the BSA does not use its status as a private organization to promote any one single belief system. What people don't like to point out is that the BSA does use its status as a private organization to exclude, marginalize, and stigmatized one particular belief system.
I hope that they eventually do better.
I've appreciated hearing your perspective. I do think that it's all about how you frame it. Boy Scouts does promote a system of belief that acknowledges that some form of faith in a higher being guides your morals. Many of us that are religious (I'm a very liberal Catholic) find that IMPORTANT! The point of BSA is charter-building and just because you think that character is unrelated to God doesn't meant that I (or BSA) needs to agree with you. I can respect you, but I don't have to agree with you.
Do you feel the same way about Alcoholics Anonymous? Are they too bigoted, striving to marginalize you.
Anonymous
05/31/2017 06:14
Subject: Re:Is Boy Scouts a thing now? DS wants to get into it, but I have some concerns.
Anonymous wrote:Hypocrite of the year award ... I don't want him hanging around with kids that weren't raised to be sensitive to others but also don't want him hanging around with a bunch of dorks.
+ 1000
Anonymous
05/31/2017 01:28
Subject: Is Boy Scouts a thing now? DS wants to get into it, but I have some concerns.
I am the poster who started writing about my issues with the Boy Scouts and their exclusion of atheists. I want to say a couple of things and then I'm going to exit this thread. First of all, I am under no illusion that the Boy Scouts and especially individual troops are, on the whole, malevolent. I think that they do a lot of good for a lot of boys. While some troops are, of course, better than others, I don't doubt that, in this area in particular, they do a lot of good. In fact, I think that the organization as a whole is just a couple of reforms from all ing their remaining major issues.
That said, the people suggesting that the discrimination against atheists is no big deal and that the BSA is acting like other religious organizations are missing the point. There is a BIG difference between promoting a specific belief system and excluding a specific belief system. It is the difference between, for example, the Mormons saying that only Mormons are welcome in our temple (perfectly normal) and saying that absolutely everyone except Jews are welcome in our temple, which is bigotry. As many people have pointed out, the BSA does not use its status as a private organization to promote any one single belief system. What people don't like to point out is that the BSA does use its status as a private organization to exclude, marginalize, and stigmatized one particular belief system.
I hope that they eventually do better.
That said, the people suggesting that the discrimination against atheists is no big deal and that the BSA is acting like other religious organizations are missing the point. There is a BIG difference between promoting a specific belief system and excluding a specific belief system. It is the difference between, for example, the Mormons saying that only Mormons are welcome in our temple (perfectly normal) and saying that absolutely everyone except Jews are welcome in our temple, which is bigotry. As many people have pointed out, the BSA does not use its status as a private organization to promote any one single belief system. What people don't like to point out is that the BSA does use its status as a private organization to exclude, marginalize, and stigmatized one particular belief system.
I hope that they eventually do better.
Anonymous
05/30/2017 23:47
Subject: Is Boy Scouts a thing now? DS wants to get into it, but I have some concerns.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The kids that I see that stick with scouts through school (to eagle scout) are all good kids with their head screwed on the right way. These are kids that are polite and have inclusive viewpoints.
The troops where I am are fairly liberal.
The issue scouts had in the past was equating gay with pedophile. The anti-gay aspect was nominally (and mistakenly) to protect the kids.
Hint: Joe Biden: former Boyscout
Donald Trump: Not a boy scout
Love this re Trump & Biden! You could add to the list of Boy Scouts, especially Eagle Scouts: Alexander Haig, John Glenn, the list of Senators, astronauts, judges, etc is mind bending.
Eagle Scouts: Rex Tillerson, Jeff Sessions, Rick Perry, Ryan Zinke
Anonymous
05/30/2017 22:17
Subject: Is Boy Scouts a thing now? DS wants to get into it, but I have some concerns.
My boys belong to an Episcopal troop, what I like about it is how they are very accommodating to all kinds of boys. There are boys all over the spectrum in the the troop from boys that look cool ( to a dork of a mother), to dorks, plus kids with true issues. It is nice to see the boys work together with each other. I was not a fan of scouts, but let my boys do it since all I do is drop off.
Anonymous
05/30/2017 22:09
Subject: Is Boy Scouts a thing now? DS wants to get into it, but I have some concerns.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Leaving aside the issue of whether OP is a troll, I am not going to let my son join the Boy Scouts. The activities are great but, fortunately, there are plenty of opportunities to engage in similar activities without the Boy Scouts (e.g. 4H). More importantly, while it is good that, after years of intense pressure, the Boy Scouts are finally in the process of addressing their overt discrimination against homosexuals, they continue to be a non-sectarian religious organization that discriminates against atheists and, ironically, has encouraged atheist scouts to lie about their beliefs in order to remain in the organization.
Nope. Not for my son.
Eh. We're atheists and DS loves scouts. It was recommended by his therapist for him to deal with social anxiety and it's definitely been helpful that way. I'm sure many would tell us we're horrid because we basically give DS the greenlight to mouth the religious stuff without believing it, but I grew up with rigid parents who denied me some fun memories because of their righteousness, and I'm not interested in telling him he can't do something benign that he really likes just because he has to say an oath that mentions a god he doesn't believe in.
My main beef has always been with their stance on gay scouts and scoutmasters, and they have improved on some of that recently, but luckily DS belongs to a very liberal troop (that probably includes quite a few atheists), and we also talk to him about the issue. And we don't give money to the national office.
I also wish they didn't have to wear the silly uniforms, but whatever.
Thanks, this reflects my view.
Anonymous
05/30/2017 22:08
Subject: Re:Is Boy Scouts a thing now? DS wants to get into it, but I have some concerns.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This is the issues with having any values. Someone without those values wants you to bend to their values.
The Boy Scouts is VERY upfront with its values. If they are not something that you can live by ... join another organization!
I agree with you on all counts.
1. Bigotry is, in fact, a value.
2. Not having that value, I would, in fact, prefer that the BSA bent to my values.
3. The Boy Scouts have, indeed, been VERY upfront about this and other values.
4. Since it's not a value that I can live with or want my child to learn, I will join another organization.
Look at that! Complete agreement!
Boy, it's REALLY a stretch to try to say that Boy Scouts' values are lacking. You aren't doing "atheists" any favors.
Is it really a stretch? This is an organization thst spent a century practicing overt homophobia. It is only now, slowly and against the wishes of much of its membership, trying to disengage from THAT bigotry. They may promote some fine values but let's not act like they aren't profoundly lacking in some respects. Even the BSA has (finally) acknowledged that fact.
I can say that I have two boys that went through Cub Scouts and into Boy Scouts and this subject never once came up - in our meetings, at camp outs, on hikes, anywhere. We had a nice (and diverse) group of kids in their troops. The hard working parent volunteers do so much...not just for the kids but for their communities. It is was a wonderful and worthwhile experience for both of my kids - and for us, as parents, too. Nothing hateful or negative about it.
Anonymous
05/30/2017 22:06
Subject: Is Boy Scouts a thing now? DS wants to get into it, but I have some concerns.
Anonymous wrote:I was a scout but dropped out because I disagreed with the organization's values (read: discrimination). I would not let my kid join on principle. It has a racist and bigoted history. It also pushes religion, and I am not religious. It is basically a lite version of a Mormon youth group.
Again, it depends, there are two Catholic Churches near me, one kicked the Boy Scouts out when they allowed gays. the other church has a high adventure group ( meaning they go on lots of trips that the parents fund) and it is the youth club, not the scouts that pushes religioun.
Anonymous
05/30/2017 22:03
Subject: Is Boy Scouts a thing now? DS wants to get into it, but I have some concerns.
Ugh...this thread has now teetered between the D-bag that started this thread by fondly remembering how he used to mock other kids at his school for being "dorks" and how he's worried that his kid will somehow question his manliness if he learns archery (?)....and the d-bag homophobe that thinks it "smart" not to allow gay men near kids.
For anyone rational that's reading....my son does boy scouts, as did several of my nephews. They are all very pro gay rights. They happen to all be moderately religious, but in my experience the troop itself did not advocate any particular religion. The cub scouts had a "duty to god" requirement, but it was done at home with families. For that reason, I can see where atheists might not be comfortable with it.
Contrary to a PP, I don't think an organization that has a religious aspect is bigoted simply because it has a religious aspect. That would be like saying that every religion is bigoted, because an atheist would not feel comfortable belonging to a religion. Condemning every religious group seems like a position that is bigoted against people who are religious, so it all seems like a very circular argument. For what it's worth, my husband is an atheist, so I don't think I am particularly bigoted against atheist people. (As the saying goes, "some of my best friends are atheist!" But, really, they are.)
Boy Scouts is a bit different than Girl Scouts in this regard -- GS explicitly says that if a child is not religious, or comes from a faith tradition that does not recognize a "God," it is perfectly okay for the child to replace the word "God" in the GS law with another word (like "humanity" or "charity" or "morality" or anything else that is consistent with the other aspects of the Girl Scout law/promise -- I don't think you could say "Money" or "Self Interest" or something like that).
For anyone rational that's reading....my son does boy scouts, as did several of my nephews. They are all very pro gay rights. They happen to all be moderately religious, but in my experience the troop itself did not advocate any particular religion. The cub scouts had a "duty to god" requirement, but it was done at home with families. For that reason, I can see where atheists might not be comfortable with it.
Contrary to a PP, I don't think an organization that has a religious aspect is bigoted simply because it has a religious aspect. That would be like saying that every religion is bigoted, because an atheist would not feel comfortable belonging to a religion. Condemning every religious group seems like a position that is bigoted against people who are religious, so it all seems like a very circular argument. For what it's worth, my husband is an atheist, so I don't think I am particularly bigoted against atheist people. (As the saying goes, "some of my best friends are atheist!" But, really, they are.)
Boy Scouts is a bit different than Girl Scouts in this regard -- GS explicitly says that if a child is not religious, or comes from a faith tradition that does not recognize a "God," it is perfectly okay for the child to replace the word "God" in the GS law with another word (like "humanity" or "charity" or "morality" or anything else that is consistent with the other aspects of the Girl Scout law/promise -- I don't think you could say "Money" or "Self Interest" or something like that).
Anonymous
05/30/2017 21:56
Subject: Is Boy Scouts a thing now? DS wants to get into it, but I have some concerns.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My good friend is a scout leader and has told me that if it's a scout troop in a smaller town, their ideals are smaller. Most troops around here are no longer as 'backwards' thinking as they were years ago. FWIW, he's an openly gay scout leader who wanted to be a leader because he greatly enjoy scouts when he was younger and went all the way through to Eagle Scout. He's in in the NOVA area and doesn't have any parents or scouts who have issues with his sexuality. His troop is also much less religious and more spiritual.
I think most troops meet at either a church or school. And from my experience with troops in this area, you don't have to worry about your son thinking he's more "manly" than you. They mostly stick to "camping" vs camping. My neighbor's son has yet to actually go camping because each time they have a trip scheduled, it rains and they cancel. They've mainly done backyard camp outs where a few parents crash on the host's couch and the other dads leave past a certain time. Their last outing for a badge was bowling, soooo, yeah.
I will suggest that is a very unlikely scenario for a boy scout troop (versus say a cub scout troop). To advance up the boy scout ranks there are certain requirements that must be met - a good many pertaining to outdoor and camping activities. By way of example -- to become a "first class scout" (a rank that usually is reached within the first couple of years of scouting) a kid needs to (among other things): Participate in 10 troop activities (not meetings) 6 of which must involve overnight camping. Five of those overnights must be in a tent, lean-to or igloo. The kid also needs to help plan a least 1 day's menu for a campout, and be responsible for cooking 2 of the meals (help from other scouts allowed). Other requirements include completing an orienteering course using a compass and discussing when to use lashings and particular knots - and then demonstrating how to use/tie them. Scout camp outs will include a lot of activities but will also be focused on helping kids complete requirements for rank advancement and to earn merit badges.
The troop my son is in does not camp in the backyard nor have they done any bowling badges. The projects they work on have substance to them.