Anonymous
12/28/2016 09:41
Subject: Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
As a current teacher, I think that the idea of merit pay would be difficult to implement. Some teach the non-TAG kids: the kids with special needs; the English language learners, and the kids with no support at home. The teachers with the TAG kids obviously have higher SOL scores. The TAG kids do their homework because they (often) have parents who make sure they do it and and are (often) more excited by learning because it's easier for them, etc. How are you going to decide which of these teachers is doing a better job?
Anonymous
12/28/2016 09:39
Subject: Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
I think most teachers are pretty good. The top "10%'ers" can go to the privates and can make the big bucks if money is the issue.
The focus should be on the other 10% of the spectrum. The bad teachers. They're easier to ID (start with the criminals on paid admin leave) and getting rid of the bad ones would have a much more significant effect. Just allow leadership to fire the bad ones just like we can in the real world.
The focus should be on the other 10% of the spectrum. The bad teachers. They're easier to ID (start with the criminals on paid admin leave) and getting rid of the bad ones would have a much more significant effect. Just allow leadership to fire the bad ones just like we can in the real world.
Anonymous
12/28/2016 08:49
Subject: Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
Merit pay only works if objective and meaningful metrics can be applied.
For some fields, it is easy, and those fields are often paid based on the metrics, such as car sales: you are paid based on the profit you make for the dealership.
For others, it is hard. Teaching is about improving the mental presentation of the children, giving them extra knowledge, showing them how to solve problems, etc. But how do you measure the impact of one teacher?
The whole point of the standards based learning was to define baselines to measure against. In order to score better, the teachers teach to the test -- forgoing other knowledge. In extreme cases, the teachers coached kids on the tests (Georgia).
I think everyone would like to see better teacher get paid more, but how do you identify better teachers?
For some fields, it is easy, and those fields are often paid based on the metrics, such as car sales: you are paid based on the profit you make for the dealership.
For others, it is hard. Teaching is about improving the mental presentation of the children, giving them extra knowledge, showing them how to solve problems, etc. But how do you measure the impact of one teacher?
The whole point of the standards based learning was to define baselines to measure against. In order to score better, the teachers teach to the test -- forgoing other knowledge. In extreme cases, the teachers coached kids on the tests (Georgia).
I think everyone would like to see better teacher get paid more, but how do you identify better teachers?
Anonymous
12/27/2016 21:24
Subject: Re:Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
I would be worried word would get out to parents and teachers that Mrs. A gets paid more than Mrs. B and then there would be a fight among parents for Mrs. A. Also, Mrs. B may be jealous of Mrs. A and not want to work constructively with her on curriculum planning and particular students they share. Since not all children can get Mrs. A, this system doesn't work.
I do think teachers want to be recognized for things they do well and for things they do above and beyond. Additional duties should be paid additional sums and a good job should be recognized by the administration and through small perks. Our office rewards teams who do certain tasks under budget or very well with things like free lunches or a small gift card and an email announcement. I see this working better than a base salary changed based on merit.
I do think teachers want to be recognized for things they do well and for things they do above and beyond. Additional duties should be paid additional sums and a good job should be recognized by the administration and through small perks. Our office rewards teams who do certain tasks under budget or very well with things like free lunches or a small gift card and an email announcement. I see this working better than a base salary changed based on merit.
Anonymous
12/27/2016 21:17
Subject: Re:Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
be should be build
Anonymous
12/27/2016 21:17
Subject: Re:Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
There are too many criteria to measure for it to be done fairly. It also goes against the thought that all teachers are qualified to teach who have a degree. It would be resentment among teachers and distrust among parents.
Anonymous
12/27/2016 20:00
Subject: Re:Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I believe the entire point is to shut down any attempts at discussing merit pay for teachers. The people claim that teaching is so special, so different, that it's just not possible to determine how they're doing at their profession and have any element of pay reflect that.
Obviously, the best teachers are at TJ and the GT centers since they have the best scores. Duh.
And here's another attempt to shut it down.
There must be a lot more problems with teachers than I suspected, given how horrified so many seem to be about even considering the possibility of merit pay.
"Horrified" by what a cluster fudge it would be. Most of us aren't afraid to be judged on merit if it can be done fairly.
Anonymous
12/27/2016 19:57
Subject: Re:Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I believe the entire point is to shut down any attempts at discussing merit pay for teachers. The people claim that teaching is so special, so different, that it's just not possible to determine how they're doing at their profession and have any element of pay reflect that.
Obviously, the best teachers are at TJ and the GT centers since they have the best scores. Duh.
And here's another attempt to shut it down.
There must be a lot more problems with teachers than I suspected, given how horrified so many seem to be about even considering the possibility of merit pay.
I don't think many are "horrified", but rather skeptical that a fair merit pay system could be developed. I say pay more for extra duties.
So, how would you determine pay for merit? Where would you start?
Anonymous
12/27/2016 19:51
Subject: Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What this thread has failed to do is present any realistic and fair ways to implement merit pay...
Well I tried to with extra compensation for extra tasks. "merit" is very difficult to gauge. I think it's better to focus on what teachers do and the time it takes them to do it. Perhaps there should also be some incentive pay as well to incentivize teachers going above and beyond but mostly those programs that single out teachers tend to cause resentment. Better to give extra credit for actual tasks.
A few of us have mentioned this. ?
Anonymous
12/27/2016 19:29
Subject: Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
Anonymous wrote:What this thread has failed to do is present any realistic and fair ways to implement merit pay...
Well I tried to with extra compensation for extra tasks. "merit" is very difficult to gauge. I think it's better to focus on what teachers do and the time it takes them to do it. Perhaps there should also be some incentive pay as well to incentivize teachers going above and beyond but mostly those programs that single out teachers tend to cause resentment. Better to give extra credit for actual tasks.
Anonymous
12/27/2016 19:29
Subject: Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
Anonymous wrote:What this thread has failed to do is present any realistic and fair ways to implement merit pay...
That is because there is no realistic way. I've always said that I would be for merit pay as soon as someone could define what a great teacher is. It is not always measurable. Do you give it to the teacher with the best scores from her students? Then, you will have teachers who only want to teach GT? Do you give it to the teachers who are the most popular with parents? Then all students would get straight A's. Do you give it to the teacher who is best buds with the principal? All sorts of problems with that, as well.
A few years ago, FCPS gave merit pay to teaches who jumped through some hoops and did lots of paperwork to justify their reward. That didn't work either. Just because a teacher writes up what she does in a favorable light, does not make her a better teacher.
Anonymous
12/27/2016 19:17
Subject: Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
As a social worker you were not responsible for educating children. That's the key that makes teaching such a noble and unique profession. This fact was pointed out by another poster earlier in this communication by one that some deliberately overlook.
This is such a weird line of reasoning. Social workers can be responsible for keeping children alive and safe. They can be responsible for keeping elderly people alive and safe. Disabled people alive and safe. They can be responsible for keeping people functional and capable of living in society. They can be responsible for helping people be successful.
Sanitation workers are responsible for making sure we don't all live in filth and die of disease. I mean, really, what jobs do you think people hold that aren't important on some level?
Ok, mine. I'm a scientist. I contribute to general knowledge, but I'm not working in areas of health and safety, so I'm worthless on your scale of importance. But most of the people I know are in jobs that contribute to the general welfare in some way. My DH works for the phone company, making sure you can call for help in emergencies. My mother's a teacher (apparently the most sacred of professions) and my father's an engineer making sure the bridges you drive over don't crumble beneath your car and kill you. Which one of them should get the most money?
How strange some of you people are.
And without TEACHERS none of those professions would be possible.
And without water sanitation engineers and workers, teachers wouldn't have anyone to teach. How weird do you want to get?
You make absolutely no sense. But that's what happens when people would rather argue than discuss. Argue rather than accept truth.
Teachers affect ALL lives--the doctors, lawyers, engineers and sanitation workers. No other profession does that.
You have a weirdly narrow view.
The clean drinking water that comes out of your tap, out of all your neighbors taps, and out of the taps at the school where teachers teach? Is critical to life and health. The people maintaining that water plant and water sources are touching more lives than a teacher does. Since that's your metric, they win, teachers lose.
Garbage collectors touch more lives than teachers do. Postal workers too, though they aren't critical to life and health, like garbage collectors are.
Your argument is weird. Teachers teach. No, garbage collectors don't teach. But teachers also don't collect garbage. So what? There are a ton of jobs that are critical to our health, our lives, our growth as humans. Teachers are unique special snowflakes, just like all those other jobs.
1. The point is that TEACHERS TEACH those who do all of the things you mentioned.
2. I also made the statement that this is not a pissing contest. Everyone works hard and everyone's job is important. The word I used to describe a teacher's job is "UNIQUE". A doctor's job is unique. So is that sanitation worker's. But a teacher's job is unique in that they TEACH, TOUCH, and PREPARE every single one of those people. The fact that you both try to deny this fact AND discount a teacher's job suggests there is something very seriously wrong with you. I don't know if it's teacher envy--That good salary and benefits for 6 mos of work, serious comprehension issues or a serious lack of social skills.
Anonymous
12/27/2016 19:05
Subject: Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
What this thread has failed to do is present any realistic and fair ways to implement merit pay...
Anonymous
12/27/2016 18:52
Subject: Re:Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
I believe the entire point is to shut down any attempts at discussing merit pay for teachers. The people claim that teaching is so special, so different, that it's just not possible to determine how they're doing at their profession and have any element of pay reflect that.
Obviously, the best teachers are at TJ and the GT centers since they have the best scores. Duh.
And here's another attempt to shut it down.
There must be a lot more problems with teachers than I suspected, given how horrified so many seem to be about even considering the possibility of merit pay.
Anonymous
12/27/2016 18:40
Subject: Re:Teacher and Admins please share ideas to have merit based pay work
Anonymous wrote:
I believe the entire point is to shut down any attempts at discussing merit pay for teachers. The people claim that teaching is so special, so different, that it's just not possible to determine how they're doing at their profession and have any element of pay reflect that.
Obviously, the best teachers are at TJ and the GT centers since they have the best scores. Duh.