Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Uh, I'm the pp suggesting that people thinking filling out a daily times sheet is beneath them, but it is required. You don't get to change the rule just because it doesn't suit you. Ditto letting your kid skirt homework policy that a teacher decides is non-negotiable.

You don't get to publicly change rules, but if the rule is stupid and deserves to be violated, you violate it, secretly, but take the consequences if they come to you.

OMG. Are you the one running for president of the United States?

No. If you knowingly break a rule because you disagree with it, but you don't want to protest the rule publicly, that's just what you do. You break it, you do your thing, and you don't tell anyone about it BUT if you get caught, you can't claim ignorance or fail to take your punishment.

So if there's a rule at work that sick days are only to be used when you are actually sick, but you need half a day to stay home for the plumber and you put in for a sick day -- don't tell anyone. You know what you are doing is against the rules, just don't be blatant about it. But, if you are caught and forced to take the leave without pay and get some other punishment, you can't whine about it. You knew the rules, you deliberately didn't follow them, so own up to the punishement.

So, we tell our kids it isn't cheating unless they get caught?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Uh, I'm the pp suggesting that people thinking filling out a daily times sheet is beneath them, but it is required. You don't get to change the rule just because it doesn't suit you. Ditto letting your kid skirt homework policy that a teacher decides is non-negotiable.

You don't get to publicly change rules, but if the rule is stupid and deserves to be violated, you violate it, secretly, but take the consequences if they come to you.

OMG. Are you the one running for president of the United States?

No. If you knowingly break a rule because you disagree with it, but you don't want to protest the rule publicly, that's just what you do. You break it, you do your thing, and you don't tell anyone about it BUT if you get caught, you can't claim ignorance or fail to take your punishment.

So if there's a rule at work that sick days are only to be used when you are actually sick, but you need half a day to stay home for the plumber and you put in for a sick day -- don't tell anyone. You know what you are doing is against the rules, just don't be blatant about it. But, if you are caught and forced to take the leave without pay and get some other punishment, you can't whine about it. You knew the rules, you deliberately didn't follow them, so own up to the punishement.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Uh, I'm the pp suggesting that people thinking filling out a daily times sheet is beneath them, but it is required. You don't get to change the rule just because it doesn't suit you. Ditto letting your kid skirt homework policy that a teacher decides is non-negotiable.

You don't get to publicly change rules, but if the rule is stupid and deserves to be violated, you violate it, secretly, but take the consequences if they come to you.

OMG. Are you the one running for president of the United States?

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe there are parents who think this is OK! It's cheating! I don't care what your justification is--you don't teach your child that it's okay to copy someone else's work. You have failed as parents. FAILED.

mjsmith wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

mjsmith wrote:So DD is coping homework and complaining about all the homework. but yet the girl in the other class IS getting the homework done. If there is too much homework, then how is the other child getting it done?

The fact that she is getting good grades, tells me one of two things... that either she knows the shit. just doesn't like doing the busy work, or is cheating on tests...

tell her she's gotta stop copying the home work. new house rule... and if you are concerned about her cheating on the tests give the teacher a call and let him know about the home work copying you found.

Oh and lets all be hones with each other....at some point in time in our lives we all have cheated on something., home work, taxes, ect...

I was a D1 recruit. I was training constantly. Sometimes I'd get home at 11 PM and start at 5 AM the next day. On those days, I'd rather just do 20% of the problems and copy the rest than try to do the whole assignment. Some people don't have those kinds of commitments and have more time for assignments.

I too was a D-1 athlete with what sounds like a similar schedule to your. I was Academic All-American every year and managed to do all this without ever copying other people's shit, because I was disciplined, honest, and organized. Imagine that!

You're super human! Don't assume your experience is universal.

Superhuman, no, but a person who looks at what he can accomplish given the time he as available. basically don't take on more than you can handle.

I think that trading a full scholarship in place of doing a few math problems is a trade most people would make. It's easy to say they wouldn't in the hypothetical, but given that actual choice, I think most would.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

mjsmith wrote:So DD is coping homework and complaining about all the homework. but yet the girl in the other class IS getting the homework done. If there is too much homework, then how is the other child getting it done?

The fact that she is getting good grades, tells me one of two things... that either she knows the shit. just doesn't like doing the busy work, or is cheating on tests...

tell her she's gotta stop copying the home work. new house rule... and if you are concerned about her cheating on the tests give the teacher a call and let him know about the home work copying you found.

Oh and lets all be hones with each other....at some point in time in our lives we all have cheated on something., home work, taxes, ect...

I was a D1 recruit. I was training constantly. Sometimes I'd get home at 11 PM and start at 5 AM the next day. On those days, I'd rather just do 20% of the problems and copy the rest than try to do the whole assignment. Some people don't have those kinds of commitments and have more time for assignments.

I too was a D-1 athlete with what sounds like a similar schedule to your. I was Academic All-American every year and managed to do all this without ever copying other people's shit, because I was disciplined, honest, and organized. Imagine that!

You're super human! Don't assume your experience is universal.

Superhuman, no, but a person who looks at what he can accomplish given the time he as available. basically don't take on more than you can handle.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, I copied homework a lot (never on tests though). Graduated first in my class. Went to a competitive college (didn't copy there)...graduated in the top 5% of my bschool class. Now a CPA.

I would call it time effective management.

I did all that without being a cheater.

If this is the worst thing in life I've done, I am okay with it.

You are a fraud. Your life started with a lie. You really were not first in your class. And you hurt the person who really was first. And you may have taken that competitive college spot from someone who did their own work.

Pretty sure the results would be the same, I just had more free time because I didn't worry about busy work. I did very well on tests, projects and papers by myself. Most of the kids in the top of the class copied off each other...

My husband and I met in law school. He skipped class and rarely read the casebooks, just crammed at the end of the semester with borrowed outlines (this was allowed by professors). I read every case and studied every night. His view was that he would do fine job-wise as long as he got average to above average grades. My view was I was there to learn and therefore I should do the work (also I'm bad at last-minute studying, does not turn out well for me). I think our divergent approaches are an illustration of a legitimate disagreement about time management and risk/reward in terms of mastering material vs. skating by. But he was not a cheater, ever. He never passed off someone else's work as his own, not in law school or to my knowledge before that. It may not matter, it may not be a slippery slope, it may be too much homework is assigned. It's still dishonest to copy if you are passing someone's work off as your own.

The value of homework is hotly debated. As an educator and parent, I believe most of the HW my HS sophomore does is busy work. When teachers are thoughtful, reflective practitioners designing assignments based on their teaching goals-HW is an effective tool. Unfortunately, that is not the case most of the time.

Anonymous wrote:
We copied too at that age, even on tests. Not proud of it, but what's true is that we were under a lot of pressure in high school (not in this country) and had much too much work to do.

So I sympathize with her, but of course I wouldn't be able to condone it. I would explain what could happen if she were caught, and also look at her schedule to see when she would have the time to do it herself.

And if worse comes to worse, just pretend not to notice next time. If her grades starts dipping below A, that's when you can put your foot down.

But if so many kids are cheating to turn in ALL the work being assigned, then the teacher believes it is NOT too much work because it is getting done by ll these kids. And the kids who aren't cheating are the ones suffering, and attempting suicide, especially if they don't realize everyone else is getting it done and getting As by cheating.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Eh, I copied homework a lot (never on tests though). Graduated first in my class. Went to a competitive college (didn't copy there)...graduated in the top 5% of my bschool class. Now a CPA.

I would call it time effective management.

I did all that without being a cheater.

If this is the worst thing in life I've done, I am okay with it.

You are a fraud. Your life started with a lie. You really were not first in your class. And you hurt the person who really was first. And you may have taken that competitive college spot from someone who did their own work.

Your kid sucks at math and probably needs a tutor. B in high school math is actually a terrible grade.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe so many people are okay with this. Cheating doesn't have to be a gateway to anything. It's wrong. And it's bad for the cheater, who is not learning to manage her own work or to advocate for herself if there is simply too much of it.

This is the most important part of what you've written and the root cause of the problem. You have to ask yourself what kind of system has been created that gives an otherwise good student the incentive to cheat? Parents, especially in this area, have wild expectations for their children and heap on the pressure.

For example, in the forum that was started about maintaining a minimum standard of grades, one parent mentioned that if the student does not complete 100% of her assignments, that her phone will be taken away. What message do you think that child receives? The end goal is a completed assignment to avoid punishment. The incentive is not knowledge, the goal is not to perform to the best of your ability. It's a completed assignment. That creates an obvious disincentive to ask for help or advocate for yourself if there's too much work because the student is trying to avoid being punished.

You all might think you're creating some kind of moral super-beings who would never copy a homework assignment, but I would bet that you're creating the very incentives that would lead your child to cut a few corners.

Uh, no. It creates a child who understands that there are consequences if you do not do your homework, just like there are consequences in the real world if you do not do work your boss assigns you.

School and the pursuit of knowledge is fundamentally different than doing work for pay. They should not be treated the same.

NP here - copying homework, cheating, lying, absolutely not acceptable. Let the cheaters teach their kids what they want. It will eventually catch up with them. IMHO I agree with the PP who says this country is going down the toilet because of these immoral a-holes who think lying and stealing credit for other's work is justified because you found some sort of justification that suits you. Disgusting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe so many people are okay with this. Cheating doesn't have to be a gateway to anything. It's wrong. And it's bad for the cheater, who is not learning to manage her own work or to advocate for herself if there is simply too much of it.

This is the most important part of what you've written and the root cause of the problem. You have to ask yourself what kind of system has been created that gives an otherwise good student the incentive to cheat? Parents, especially in this area, have wild expectations for their children and heap on the pressure.

For example, in the forum that was started about maintaining a minimum standard of grades, one parent mentioned that if the student does not complete 100% of her assignments, that her phone will be taken away. What message do you think that child receives? The end goal is a completed assignment to avoid punishment. The incentive is not knowledge, the goal is not to perform to the best of your ability. It's a completed assignment. That creates an obvious disincentive to ask for help or advocate for yourself if there's too much work because the student is trying to avoid being punished.

You all might think you're creating some kind of moral super-beings who would never copy a homework assignment, but I would bet that you're creating the very incentives that would lead your child to cut a few corners.

Uh, no. It creates a child who understands that there are consequences if you do not do your homework, just like there are consequences in the real world if you do not do work your boss assigns you.