I will also add this. My idea of my "dream job" at 17 is completely different from the career I ended up in. I ended up on the path to this career based on one of those "what are you going to do" discussions I had with a family friend.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So what is the right metric for measuring the quality of an education? Are there quantifiable ways to actually compare the quality of the output? If it is not salary,?is it graduation rates?! Is it percent of students who are employed in their major or in grad school a year out from graduating with the B.A. or B.S.? How do you account for students who decide not pursue a careering their major field of study?

It took me one year to break into a job in my major field of study twenty years ago and I would say tea was largely because I didn't understand how to look for a job. In between I supported myself working retail and waiting tables. I worked in that job for four years, and then went to grad school. I was very fortunate when I came out of grad school that I had the right combination of skills and experience and was in the right place at the right time to land the job that kick started the career I am in now. It has been an amazing journey and I would but do much differently. Among leaders in my field in international affairs I am known and recognized for my expertise and have been consulted by, among others, the NSC, the State Department, the Treasury Department and numerous private sector entities, including non-profits and foundations, business associations and major multi-national corporations. I built thus career through my own hard work, willingness to take risks (for example taking decamping to Siberia after grad school), focusing on experience first and salary second, and building my own network of connections in industry and government. No one today ever asks or cares where I went to school. You got an Ivy degree and it has worked for you. I didn't, but I'm extremely satisfied with my career and the choices that I've made and even gave surprised myself that I do what I do now. So, if the measure of quality of an education is as you state in your first sentence above, I am among the best educated people I know. However, much of that education came through experiences outside the classroom, through people I met who believed in and encouraged me and through my own hard work and perseverance. My degree, in the end, has had very little to do with it.

Thanks for proving my point! For many of us who went to Ivies, we feel that our degrees have everything to do with our success. What makes a school elite in my definition above is basically whether or not alumni look back and say their education actually had an impact on their success. There are many schools beyond a handful of Ivies that are elite in my mind, and I would happily pay for my child to attend one over a full ride at a school that has more questionable ROI.

You can get take classes to learn new things anywhere these days, of course. But there are other types of skills you learn by being in the right environment at the right formative years, among which is a skill that you even admit you didn't learn from your school - how to look for a job. The incremental benefit of an elite education is huge if you didn't grow up privileged and instead are the child of poor immigrants who have no idea how things in this country really work.

By the way, it didn't take you "one year" to break into your dream job if you waited tables for 4 years and also had to go to grad school. That's more like 7 years, if I'm reading correctly. That's a huge opportunity cost, even from a pure income perspective!!

I started getting internships in my dream field while I was in college, and it was definitely the school's name that got me in the door because let's face it, I had no real experience at that point in my life. By the time I graduated from undergrad, I had my dream job, and by the time I was 27 I had achieved the type of name recognition you are so proud of above and was constantly being featured in national press. I'm sure I would have eventually ended up in the same place no matter what school I went to, but time is valuable too, and the right education is a huge accelerator.

You need to go back and re-read what I wrote. Either you didn't read it carefully or you didn't comprehend what I wrote. The job I worked in for four years was not retail and waiting tables, it was the job related to my field of study. I would further add that it was the four years of employment between college and grad school that really made the difference in terms of pulling my career together.

In any case, in all doesn't matter in the end because we all end up in the same place! "Memento homo, quia pulvis es et in pulverem reverteris."

Anonymous wrote:So what is the right metric for measuring the quality of an education? Are there quantifiable ways to actually compare the quality of the output? If it is not salary,?is it graduation rates?! Is it percent of students who are employed in their major or in grad school a year out from graduating with the B.A. or B.S.? How do you account for students who decide not pursue a careering their major field of study?

It took me one year to break into a job in my major field of study twenty years ago and I would say tea was largely because I didn't understand how to look for a job. In between I supported myself working retail and waiting tables. I worked in that job for four years, and then went to grad school. I was very fortunate when I came out of grad school that I had the right combination of skills and experience and was in the right place at the right time to land the job that kick started the career I am in now. It has been an amazing journey and I would but do much differently. Among leaders in my field in international affairs I am known and recognized for my expertise and have been consulted by, among others, the NSC, the State Department, the Treasury Department and numerous private sector entities, including non-profits and foundations, business associations and major multi-national corporations. I built thus career through my own hard work, willingness to take risks (for example taking decamping to Siberia after grad school), focusing on experience first and salary second, and building my own network of connections in industry and government. No one today ever asks or cares where I went to school. You got an Ivy degree and it has worked for you. I didn't, but I'm extremely satisfied with my career and the choices that I've made and even gave surprised myself that I do what I do now. So, if the measure of quality of an education is as you state in your first sentence above, I am among the best educated people I know. However, much of that education came through experiences outside the classroom, through people I met who believed in and encouraged me and through my own hard work and perseverance. My degree, in the end, has had very little to do with it.

Thanks for proving my point! For many of us who went to Ivies, we feel that our degrees have everything to do with our success. What makes a school elite in my definition above is basically whether or not alumni look back and say their education actually had an impact on their success. There are many schools beyond a handful of Ivies that are elite in my mind, and I would happily pay for my child to attend one over a full ride at a school that has more questionable ROI.

You can get take classes to learn new things anywhere these days, of course. But there are other types of skills you learn by being in the right environment at the right formative years, among which is a skill that you even admit you didn't learn from your school - how to look for a job. The incremental benefit of an elite education is huge if you didn't grow up privileged and instead are the child of poor immigrants who have no idea how things in this country really work.

By the way, it didn't take you "one year" to break into your dream job if you waited tables for 4 years and also had to go to grad school. That's more like 7 years, if I'm reading correctly. That's a huge opportunity cost, even from a pure income perspective!!

I started getting internships in my dream field while I was in college, and it was definitely the school's name that got me in the door because let's face it, I had no real experience at that point in my life. By the time I graduated from undergrad, I had my dream job, and by the time I was 27 I had achieved the type of name recognition you are so proud of above and was constantly being featured in national press. I'm sure I would have eventually ended up in the same place no matter what school I went to, but time is valuable too, and the right education is a huge accelerator.

And my actual dream job when I retire is to run a bike shop somewhere in the Pacific Northwest.

So what is the right metric for measuring the quality of an education? Are there quantifiable ways to actually compare the quality of the output? If it is not salary,?is it graduation rates?! Is it percent of students who are employed in their major or in grad school a year out from graduating with the B.A. or B.S.? How do you account for students who decide not pursue a careering their major field of study?

It took me one year to break into a job in my major field of study twenty years ago and I would say tea was largely because I didn't understand how to look for a job. In between I supported myself working retail and waiting tables. I worked in that job for four years, and then went to grad school. I was very fortunate when I came out of grad school that I had the right combination of skills and experience and was in the right place at the right time to land the job that kick started the career I am in now. It has been an amazing journey and I would but do much differently. Among leaders in my field in international affairs I am known and recognized for my expertise and have been consulted by, among others, the NSC, the State Department, the Treasury Department and numerous private sector entities, including non-profits and foundations, business associations and major multi-national corporations. I built thus career through my own hard work, willingness to take risks (for example taking decamping to Siberia after grad school), focusing on experience first and salary second, and building my own network of connections in industry and government. No one today ever asks or cares where I went to school. You got an Ivy degree and it has worked for you. I didn't, but I'm extremely satisfied with my career and the choices that I've made and even gave surprised myself that I do what I do now. So, if the measure of quality of an education is as you state in your first sentence above, I am among the best educated people I know. However, much of that education came through experiences outside the classroom, through people I met who believed in and encouraged me and through my own hard work and perseverance. My degree, in the end, has had very little to do with it.

So weird not to pay for applications. Are you wanting to give the message that you don't really want her to go to college, like it's a frivolous thing that she should pay for? Why not have her pay car insurance and parking and gas if she must have a car at college. That is not a necessity.

Op, is probably a NoVa military man

Anonymous wrote:How do you measure the quality of a college education? There are no objective measures and schools are loathe to publish them?

As to sniping at GWU, I don't see similar hate spilled on other area schools like AU that are also just as expensive.

The Ivy degree may get you in the door, but it can't keep you there. Given that admission to anybody them is a crapshoot anyway and that they educate a tiny minority of all the students that go in to higher ed in the U.S., it's realistic to have expectations of not attending them. Also, it's just as myopic to assume they produce the best and brightest, when in point of fact - and this has been stated elsewhere - they generally produce educated automatons who've been good at checking the right boxes all their life and decidedly come by and large from positions of socio-economic privilege,

Quality of education means that it expands your world view, knowledge base, and helps you achieve the goals you want, no matter what that might be. If you want to work in international affairs and went to college to reach that goal, then yes, the quality of education you got wasn't as good as it could have been if you ended up a car rental associate. This is also why the above list is complete garbage - who cares which schools have the highest starting salaries? Not everyone wants to work in STEM and this is the wrong metric.

I also don't think that Ivies are the be all end all. But there's a lot of confusion about cost here - remember, a college can be more expensive but have a better ROI because it helps you get to your goals faster, and it would be silly for a parent to be so short sighted about college costs. And it's pretty sour grapes to say that students from Ivies got their foot in the door unfairly and won't do well at their jobs. Some might fail but past performance is a good predictor of future performance no matter how much people are bitter.

How do you measure the quality of a college education? There are no objective measures and schools are loathe to publish them?

As to sniping at GWU, I don't see similar hate spilled on other area schools like AU that are also just as expensive.

The Ivy degree may get you in the door, but it can't keep you there. Given that admission to anybody them is a crapshoot anyway and that they educate a tiny minority of all the students that go in to higher ed in the U.S., it's realistic to have expectations of not attending them. Also, it's just as myopic to assume they produce the best and brightest, when in point of fact - and this has been stated elsewhere - they generally produce educated automatons who've been good at checking the right boxes all their life and decidedly come by and large from positions of socio-economic privilege,

Anonymous wrote:What does "elite" mean then. The Marine Corps and Navy Seals are "elite." What does ur matter whether I go to what is perceived to be an "elite" college if I get the same result going to a non-brand name school? What do the Harvard grads I supervise have that my non-Harvard grads don't? Obviously, it's not the degree that keeps them in the job. It's performance. Up or out.

"Elite" degrees make it easier to your foot in the door because people have a general confidence in your competence and are willing to take a chance on you because of the degree. This is why GWU is bad. Too expensive and everyone questions your competence.

Anonymous wrote:And why is the above survey "drivel?" My DW works in BigLaw and her boss - a senior partner - went Tia decidedly non-elite law school. But who gives a sh*t? She brings in the clients and can make it rain. If you can't perform what good is your degree?

Because the list is not a reflection of quality of education, just a list that correlates with the number of students who go into STEM careers. Basically the list is useless.

And why is the above survey "drivel?" My DW works in BigLaw and her boss - a senior partner - went Tia decidedly non-elite law school. But who gives a sh*t? She brings in the clients and can make it rain. If you can't perform what good is your degree?

What does "elite" mean then. The Marine Corps and Navy Seals are "elite." What does ur matter whether I go to what is perceived to be an "elite" college if I get the same result going to a non-brand name school? What do the Harvard grads I supervise have that my non-Harvard grads don't? Obviously, it's not the degree that keeps them in the job. It's performance. Up or out.

Anonymous wrote:According to PayScale, the top ten performing schools in terms of right of of school pay are:

1. USMA West Point - &78,500
2. Harvey Mudd College - $78,200
3. USNA Annapolis - $78,300
4. MIT - $74,900
5. CalTech - $72,600
6. USAFA - $71,900
7. Oregon Health and Science - $68,000
8. Rose - Hulman Institute of Technology - $67,200
9. Stevens Institute of Technology - $66,800
10. Loma Linda University - $65,900

For Mid Career Earnings, the Top Ten are:

1. SUNY Maritime College - $134,000
2. Harvey Mudd College - $133,000
3. Harvard University - $126,000 tie with
4. USNA Annapolis - $126,000
5. CalTech - $125,000
6. MIT - $124,000
7. Stanford $ 123,000
8. Princeton $122,000
9. Babson College $121,000
10. Stevens Institute of Technology $120,000 tied with
10. USMA West Point $120,000

These are earnings for students with a bachelor's degree only.

You can see the entire survey here: http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors

The point is that the perception that an "elite" education is the pathway to financial success, career achievement and happiness is balderdash.

“You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library.” - Good Will Hunting

Maybe if you had a more elite education, you wouldn't post such drivel. Clearly the above list is driven by military employment and % of students who enter STEM careers more than any kind of "eliteness" measure, lol.

According to PayScale, the top ten performing schools in terms of right of of school pay are:

1. USMA West Point - &78,500
2. Harvey Mudd College - $78,200
3. USNA Annapolis - $78,300
4. MIT - $74,900
5. CalTech - $72,600
6. USAFA - $71,900
7. Oregon Health and Science - $68,000
8. Rose - Hulman Institute of Technology - $67,200
9. Stevens Institute of Technology - $66,800
10. Loma Linda University - $65,900

For Mid Career Earnings, the Top Ten are:

1. SUNY Maritime College - $134,000
2. Harvey Mudd College - $133,000
3. Harvard University - $126,000 tie with
4. USNA Annapolis - $126,000
5. CalTech - $125,000
6. MIT - $124,000
7. Stanford $ 123,000
8. Princeton $122,000
9. Babson College $121,000
10. Stevens Institute of Technology $120,000 tied with
10. USMA West Point $120,000

These are earnings for students with a bachelor's degree only.

You can see the entire survey here: http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors

The point is that the perception that an "elite" education is the pathway to financial success, career achievement and happiness is balderdash.

“You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library.” - Good Will Hunting