Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The finger-pointing at Christians is simply a deflection. Two people were stabbed in Paris last night - Islamic terrorism.

FBI took the Orlando killer off the list a week before the attacks, because he started screaming racism. Sounds to me like the guy knew exactly how to play this administration.

There is more evidence every minute that the Orlando shooter had very conflicted feelings about homosexuality, suffered from mental health issues, and wasn't very religious. Your emphasis on his religion while complete ignoring everything else reflects your own prejudices. The fact that you excuse non-Muslim religious figures who call for killing gays is further evidence of that.

Actually he co-worker said he prayed at work several times a day on his prayer mat. He also went to Mecca two years in a row. He was religious.

He was going through the motions. Nobody who was really close to him -- except maybe his father and I'm not even sure about him -- has described him as being very religious. His ex-wife specifically said the opposite.

Correct but after he divorced he apparently became more religious and visited Meccas two years in a row and he did bring his prayer mat to work at his current job and prayed at work. That is VERY religious as I know Muslims who do not pray during the day. If you are praying at work or at school during the day you are generally considered quite religious, no?

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The finger-pointing at Christians is simply a deflection. Two people were stabbed in Paris last night - Islamic terrorism.

FBI took the Orlando killer off the list a week before the attacks, because he started screaming racism. Sounds to me like the guy knew exactly how to play this administration.

There is more evidence every minute that the Orlando shooter had very conflicted feelings about homosexuality, suffered from mental health issues, and wasn't very religious. Your emphasis on his religion while complete ignoring everything else reflects your own prejudices. The fact that you excuse non-Muslim religious figures who call for killing gays is further evidence of that.

Actually he co-worker said he prayed at work several times a day on his prayer mat. He also went to Mecca two years in a row. He was religious.

He was going through the motions. Nobody who was really close to him -- except maybe his father and I'm not even sure about him -- has described him as being very religious. His ex-wife specifically said the opposite.

Correct but after he divorced he apparently became more religious and visited Meccas two years in a row and he did bring his prayer mat to work at his current job and prayed at work. That is VERY religious as I know Muslims who do not pray during the day. If you are praying at work or at school during the day you are generally considered quite religious, no?

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not that PP, but I think her point was that you can find stronger scriptural support in Islam than in Christianity. The Quran has several passages condemning homosexuality, and several passages of Hadith prescribe death for homosexuals. As you know, the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God, and the Hadith are supposed to be reliable although there's debate about some of them.

You won't find any recorded sayings by Jesus on homosexuality, let alone calling for death for homosexuals. For condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament you have to go to Paul's letters, and Paul does not call for death. In any case many mainstream Christians regard Paul's letters as pastoral, and very rooted in his own time and culture, and do not give them the universal and timeless weight they give to Jesus' sayings. For the death penalty, you have to look on the Old Testament--but PP is absolutely right that Jesus clearly and specifically denied and banned humans' ability to make judgements, particularly judgements involving death, that are God's to make. FWIW, I've had long debates on the religious forum with a fundie who opposes homosexuality. These are the reasons many Protestant churches find it OK to allow gay marriage and even gay pastors.

So, if you're a Christian or Muslim who is mentally ill (as I believe the Orlando shooter will be shown to be) or even sane, you can find scriptural support in the Quran for disapproval although not for killing homosexuals. Only fringe Christians think it's OK to kill homosexuals, also I didn't hear that Cruz freak show citing actual Bible passages.

Signed, a liberal who thinks we need to acknowledge these things

If you actually study what purports to be "scriptural support in Islam" for killing homosexuals, you will find that it is not as clear as you seem to believe and, in fact even relies upon the same Old Testament story of Sodom that homophobic Christians often cite. While the Quran is believed to be the word of God, the exact meaning of those words is heavily debated. God did not speak very plainly -- something of which anyone who attempts to read the Quran quickly becomes painfully aware.

Obviously, anyone seeking to find justification for killing gays can find it Islam, just as they can in Christianity. Indeed, here are examples of two Baptist preachers who praised the Orlando killings:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/roger-jimenez-steven-anderson-pastors-praise-orlando

"Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?" Jimenez said in a sermon originally posted on YouTube. "Um no, I think that’s great! I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer tonight."

Tempe, Arizona preacher Steven Anderson also rushed to praise the "good news" that “there are 50 less pedophiles in this world."

So, of course, most people will call these two preachers fringe elements. But, most Muslims will call ISIS a fringe group -- one that mostly targets other Muslims.

Signed, a liberal who thinks other liberals are often misinformed about Islam.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not that PP, but I think her point was that you can find stronger scriptural support in Islam than in Christianity. The Quran has several passages condemning homosexuality, and several passages of Hadith prescribe death for homosexuals. As you know, the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God, and the Hadith are supposed to be reliable although there's debate about some of them.

You won't find any recorded sayings by Jesus on homosexuality, let alone calling for death for homosexuals. For condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament you have to go to Paul's letters, and Paul does not call for death. In any case many mainstream Christians regard Paul's letters as pastoral, and very rooted in his own time and culture, and do not give them the universal and timeless weight they give to Jesus' sayings. For the death penalty, you have to look on the Old Testament--but PP is absolutely right that Jesus clearly and specifically denied and banned humans' ability to make judgements, particularly judgements involving death, that are God's to make. FWIW, I've had long debates on the religious forum with a fundie who opposes homosexuality. These are the reasons many Protestant churches find it OK to allow gay marriage and even gay pastors.

So, if you're a Christian or Muslim who is mentally ill (as I believe the Orlando shooter will be shown to be) or even sane, you can find scriptural support in the Quran for disapproval although not for killing homosexuals. Only fringe Christians think it's OK to kill homosexuals, also I didn't hear that Cruz freak show citing actual Bible passages.

Signed, a liberal who thinks we need to acknowledge these things

If you actually study what purports to be "scriptural support in Islam" for killing homosexuals, you will find that it is not as clear as you seem to believe and, in fact even relies upon the same Old Testament story of Sodom that homophobic Christians often cite. While the Quran is believed to be the word of God, the exact meaning of those words is heavily debated. God did not speak very plainly -- something of which anyone who attempts to read the Quran quickly becomes painfully aware.

Obviously, anyone seeking to find justification for killing gays can find it Islam, just as they can in Christianity. Indeed, here are examples of two Baptist preachers who praised the Orlando killings:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/roger-jimenez-steven-anderson-pastors-praise-orlando

"Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?" Jimenez said in a sermon originally posted on YouTube. "Um no, I think that’s great! I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer tonight."

Tempe, Arizona preacher Steven Anderson also rushed to praise the "good news" that “there are 50 less pedophiles in this world."

So, of course, most people will call these two preachers fringe elements. But, most Muslims will call ISIS a fringe group -- one that mostly targets other Muslims.

Signed, a liberal who thinks other liberals are often misinformed about Islam.

the Old Testament predates Jesus and Christianity altogether. Jesus said no more killings or stonings or judgments. there is no support in Christianity for reverting back to any Old Testament forms of judgement and punishment like stoning. And frankly, I dont even know if mosaic law itself said to kill homosexuals. i doubt it. you just cannot say with any logic that christianity supports that. it is nowhere in the entire new testament. it only says do not be homosexual, and do not judge or kill. that is it.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The finger-pointing at Christians is simply a deflection. Two people were stabbed in Paris last night - Islamic terrorism.

FBI took the Orlando killer off the list a week before the attacks, because he started screaming racism. Sounds to me like the guy knew exactly how to play this administration.

There is more evidence every minute that the Orlando shooter had very conflicted feelings about homosexuality, suffered from mental health issues, and wasn't very religious. Your emphasis on his religion while complete ignoring everything else reflects your own prejudices. The fact that you excuse non-Muslim religious figures who call for killing gays is further evidence of that.

Actually he co-worker said he prayed at work several times a day on his prayer mat. He also went to Mecca two years in a row. He was religious.

He was going through the motions. Nobody who was really close to him -- except maybe his father and I'm not even sure about him -- has described him as being very religious. His ex-wife specifically said the opposite.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The finger-pointing at Christians is simply a deflection. Two people were stabbed in Paris last night - Islamic terrorism.

FBI took the Orlando killer off the list a week before the attacks, because he started screaming racism. Sounds to me like the guy knew exactly how to play this administration.

There is more evidence every minute that the Orlando shooter had very conflicted feelings about homosexuality, suffered from mental health issues, and wasn't very religious. Your emphasis on his religion while complete ignoring everything else reflects your own prejudices. The fact that you excuse non-Muslim religious figures who call for killing gays is further evidence of that.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The finger-pointing at Christians is simply a deflection. Two people were stabbed in Paris last night - Islamic terrorism.

FBI took the Orlando killer off the list a week before the attacks, because he started screaming racism. Sounds to me like the guy knew exactly how to play this administration.

There is more evidence every minute that the Orlando shooter had very conflicted feelings about homosexuality, suffered from mental health issues, and wasn't very religious. Your emphasis on his religion while complete ignoring everything else reflects your own prejudices. The fact that you excuse non-Muslim religious figures who call for killing gays is further evidence of that.

Actually he co-worker said he prayed at work several times a day on his prayer mat. He also went to Mecca two years in a row. He was religious.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Not that PP, but I think her point was that you can find stronger scriptural support in Islam than in Christianity. The Quran has several passages condemning homosexuality, and several passages of Hadith prescribe death for homosexuals. As you know, the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God, and the Hadith are supposed to be reliable although there's debate about some of them.

You won't find any recorded sayings by Jesus on homosexuality, let alone calling for death for homosexuals. For condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament you have to go to Paul's letters, and Paul does not call for death. In any case many mainstream Christians regard Paul's letters as pastoral, and very rooted in his own time and culture, and do not give them the universal and timeless weight they give to Jesus' sayings. For the death penalty, you have to look on the Old Testament--but PP is absolutely right that Jesus clearly and specifically denied and banned humans' ability to make judgements, particularly judgements involving death, that are God's to make. FWIW, I've had long debates on the religious forum with a fundie who opposes homosexuality. These are the reasons many Protestant churches find it OK to allow gay marriage and even gay pastors.

So, if you're a Christian or Muslim who is mentally ill (as I believe the Orlando shooter will be shown to be) or even sane, you can find scriptural support in the Quran for disapproval although not for killing homosexuals. Only fringe Christians think it's OK to kill homosexuals, also I didn't hear that Cruz freak show citing actual Bible passages.

Signed, a liberal who thinks we need to acknowledge these things

If you actually study what purports to be "scriptural support in Islam" for killing homosexuals, you will find that it is not as clear as you seem to believe and, in fact even relies upon the same Old Testament story of Sodom that homophobic Christians often cite. While the Quran is believed to be the word of God, the exact meaning of those words is heavily debated. God did not speak very plainly -- something of which anyone who attempts to read the Quran quickly becomes painfully aware.

Obviously, anyone seeking to find justification for killing gays can find it Islam, just as they can in Christianity. Indeed, here are examples of two Baptist preachers who praised the Orlando killings:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/roger-jimenez-steven-anderson-pastors-praise-orlando

"Are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?" Jimenez said in a sermon originally posted on YouTube. "Um no, I think that’s great! I think that helps society. I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer tonight."

Tempe, Arizona preacher Steven Anderson also rushed to praise the "good news" that “there are 50 less pedophiles in this world."

So, of course, most people will call these two preachers fringe elements. But, most Muslims will call ISIS a fringe group -- one that mostly targets other Muslims.

Signed, a liberal who thinks other liberals are often misinformed about Islam.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The finger-pointing at Christians is simply a deflection. Two people were stabbed in Paris last night - Islamic terrorism.

FBI took the Orlando killer off the list a week before the attacks, because he started screaming racism. Sounds to me like the guy knew exactly how to play this administration.

There is more evidence every minute that the Orlando shooter had very conflicted feelings about homosexuality, suffered from mental health issues, and wasn't very religious. Your emphasis on his religion while complete ignoring everything else reflects your own prejudices. The fact that you excuse non-Muslim religious figures who call for killing gays is further evidence of that.

Anonymous wrote:The finger-pointing at Christians is simply a deflection. Two people were stabbed in Paris last night - Islamic terrorism.

FBI took the Orlando killer off the list a week before the attacks, because he started screaming racism. Sounds to me like the guy knew exactly how to play this administration.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There almost seems to be an agenda in the media. Almost as soon as this happens, oeople were out there saying he is mentally ill. He beat his ex-wife. He's bipolar. Etc.

Having mental illness, beating your wife, being bipolar, none of that makes a person murder 50 people. We would have millions of mass murders every day of those things creates mass murderers. Sorry but those are just excuses for his religious beliefs.

There are even more Muslims then there are mentally ill wife beaters. Why are you ruling out mental illness and blaming religion? It would seem reasonable to consider both possibilities.

I can point to documented information from law enforcement re: his extremist views and actions. Can you point to documented medical reports of his that indicate he was mentally ill?

Please point to that documentation. I fully expect that before the investigation is complete, there will be plenty of evidence of his mental instability.

FBI. He was known to them. Immediately. They do not follow a man for two years for suspected terror ties due to his pattern of behavior, without reason. Far more suspicious, is the dropping of him from their investigation, only to have him come back a short time later and shoot up a gay club. They knew he was bad news all along. I'm sure the Obama administration will deem him mentally ill, as will the press. That's their M.O. And you will find others that will state he was NOT mentally ill at all. Obama will admonish FBI for not doing their job right and perhaps sacrifice someone at DHS. That's the M.O.

Problem is, fewer and fewer of the American people are believing it. Nor are they accepting the beat downs anymore (like what just happened on your very own forum when that nice lesbian woman didn't toe the liberal line). While we realize it's hard for some people to accept the realities of evil, we will not allow those who can't accept it to march us to our deaths either. It's pretty clear to me from all the twisting and turning on this forum and in the liberal media, that feeling good about one''s self, and how others see them, is so important to liberals, that it overrules logic.

Was the Imam who spoke in Orlando of gays needing to be killed , mentally ill? How about the Imam of the Mosque that invited him? Mentally ill? The people that listened to him without saying "Hey, you need to leave NOW"? Mentally ill?

Omg shut up about this already. Liberals can disagree with a lesbian who says stupid shit. Notice how liberals didn't like Carson? It's because he supported stupid shit. We don't just support people because they're minorities or *gasp* women!

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was the Imam who spoke in Orlando of gays needing to be killed , mentally ill? How about the Imam of the Mosque that invited him? Mentally ill? The people that listened to him without saying "Hey, you need to leave NOW"? Mentally ill?

I don't know the mental state of any of them. But, they are in the same boat as the Christian paster I mentioned in the second post of this thread who called for killing gays while Mike Huckabee and Ted Cruz listened with no objection (or objection from you). All of them are sick as far as I'm concerned.

The difference? Cruz and Hucksbee come from a known position of religious freedom and first amendment rights. The Imam? Not so much.

I'm not sure that individuals who support discrimination on the basis of religion can be said to be known to support religious freedom. Huckabee and Cruz are not like the Imam, they are like the folks who listened to the iman and didn't object. You are like the people who heard about the imam and excused him.

Anonymous wrote:
Not that PP, but I think her point was that you can find stronger scriptural support in Islam than in Christianity. The Quran has several passages condemning homosexuality, and several passages of Hadith prescribe death for homosexuals. As you know, the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God, and the Hadith are supposed to be reliable although there's debate about some of them.

You won't find any recorded sayings by Jesus on homosexuality, let alone calling for death for homosexuals. For condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament you have to go to Paul's letters, and Paul does not call for death. In any case many mainstream Christians regard Paul's letters as pastoral, and very rooted in his own time and culture, and do not give them the universal and timeless weight they give to Jesus' sayings. For the death penalty, you have to look on the Old Testament--but PP is absolutely right that Jesus clearly and specifically denied and banned humans' ability to make judgements, particularly judgements involving death, that are God's to make. FWIW, I've had long debates on the religious forum with a fundie who opposes homosexuality. These are the reasons many Protestant churches find it OK to allow gay marriage and even gay pastors.

So, if you're a Christian or Muslim who is mentally ill (as I believe the Orlando shooter will be shown to be) or even sane, you can find scriptural support in the Quran for disapproval although not for killing homosexuals. Only fringe Christians think it's OK to kill homosexuals, also I didn't hear that Cruz freak show citing actual Bible passages.

Signed, a liberal who thinks we need to acknowledge these things

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Jesus said no more judging others, and with regard to stoning in particular, he said he without sin cast the first stone (i.e., nobody). So any Christian citing Old Testament practices that contradict Jesus would just be I guess wrong and not following Christianity as taught in the Bible.

As I demonstrated in the second post of this thread, there are Christian pastors prominent enough to share a stage with Republican Presidential candidates who call for killing gays. However, that view is not representative of all Christians. It is almost impossible to discuss "Islam" given the varied practices that exist within the religion. Unfortunately, Saudi and other Gulf funding has spread Wahhabi influence and practices very widely and some of the archaic practices of that brand of Islam have come to represent the religion in the West. ISIS and al-Qaida are both branches of the Wahhabi tree. But, Wahhabism represents only a small portion of the Islamic universe. It is not fair to paint the entire religion with that brush.