Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Like I said, I do not have time for a long, detailed post on this today. It would take me all day to outline my reasons that Sanders is a better feminist but, most of all, it is important to point out that you really can't separate gender from race and class. Feminists are about equality for all, and not just the equal rights of financially privileged women. For that reason, a living wage, single payer healthcare, childcare, maternity leave, equal pay are a very big deal for women. Economic fairness should not be downplayed and Clinton is simply not on the same level as Sanders on those issues. She is okay on some but not all of these issues and, if single mothers are not entitled to a living wage, they really don't stand a chance and neither do their children.

Sanders was a leading opponent of welfare reform, NAFTA and TPP. I can't understand how any feminist could downplay the harm to women of those particular policies.

As far as where the two candidates stand on specific women's issues, they are pretty comparable. They are about the same on reproductive freedom and on childcare and I do not expect either one of them to flip flop on those issues.

I could say a lot of things about the reasons I do not believe Clinton is a real feminist and, if I were to get into that, we would have to discuss a lot of things which have already been discussed on this board. I am not going to do again that since you asked me about Sanders and the main thing about Sanders is that there is not much I can say about him and his record on women's issues that isn't positive. He is a self identified feminist who has shown us that he will always stand up for the rights of women. Clinton has shown us that she is perfectly willing to compromise.

Sanders supporters keep talking about this and welfare reform, but in truth, both of those things hurt men as well as women, and in some instances, arguably more. So that particular argument for Sanders as the better feminist sounds about as non-sensical as the anti-choice claim that since 50% of the fetuses killed by abortion are female, it necessarily follows that being pro-choice is antifeminist. Furthermore, Hillary wasn't in elected office at the time of any of those policies' creations.

And a rebuttal that argues my thoughts more cogently than I: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/more-than-just-a-symbol/476490/ Bernie's no anti-feminist, but it's just another issue for him.

This is really twisted logic and shows a misunderstanding about feminism which has been promoted by the right wing and not by feminists. Just because an issue affects men does not mean it is not a feminist issue. Everything affects men. [i] I have no time to read your article but that is a completely erroneous statement.

Well then, if welfare reform and TPP were feminist issues, so was Sierra Blanca. And the Brady Bill, and like someone said before, the Minute Men.

If child care and healthcare are important feminist issues, Hillary was a pioneer in health care reform and then she was instrumental in implementing healthcare for children. She was also very involved in Children's Defense Fund. I am not sure why that doesn't make her a "real"feminist.

Clinton's work for the Children's Defense Fund is not something to brag about since the founder and president of CDF has made clear that the Clintons are not "friends in politics." CDF strongly disagreed with Welfare reform and stated that Bill Clinton's signature on that bill made a "mockery of his pledge not to hurt children." While it is true that HRC was not an elected official at the time, she advocated very strongly for welfare reform.

I am not defending Sanders on Sierra Blanca, the Brady Bill, or the Minute Men. I have said before that he is not perfect but his record is much cleaner on women's issues than Clinton's. It would be very difficult to make the case that his policies have done significant harm to women and children like the Clintons have. His healthcare proposal is far better for women and children as are his economic policies. I have said before that I believe that Clinton is a feminist when it suits her politically.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Like I said, I do not have time for a long, detailed post on this today. It would take me all day to outline my reasons that Sanders is a better feminist but, most of all, it is important to point out that you really can't separate gender from race and class. Feminists are about equality for all, and not just the equal rights of financially privileged women. For that reason, a living wage, single payer healthcare, childcare, maternity leave, equal pay are a very big deal for women. Economic fairness should not be downplayed and Clinton is simply not on the same level as Sanders on those issues. She is okay on some but not all of these issues and, if single mothers are not entitled to a living wage, they really don't stand a chance and neither do their children.

Sanders was a leading opponent of welfare reform, NAFTA and TPP. I can't understand how any feminist could downplay the harm to women of those particular policies.

As far as where the two candidates stand on specific women's issues, they are pretty comparable. They are about the same on reproductive freedom and on childcare and I do not expect either one of them to flip flop on those issues.

I could say a lot of things about the reasons I do not believe Clinton is a real feminist and, if I were to get into that, we would have to discuss a lot of things which have already been discussed on this board. I am not going to do again that since you asked me about Sanders and the main thing about Sanders is that there is not much I can say about him and his record on women's issues that isn't positive. He is a self identified feminist who has shown us that he will always stand up for the rights of women. Clinton has shown us that she is perfectly willing to compromise.

Sanders supporters keep talking about this and welfare reform, but in truth, both of those things hurt men as well as women, and in some instances, arguably more. So that particular argument for Sanders as the better feminist sounds about as non-sensical as the anti-choice claim that since 50% of the fetuses killed by abortion are female, it necessarily follows that being pro-choice is antifeminist. Furthermore, Hillary wasn't in elected office at the time of any of those policies' creations.

And a rebuttal that argues my thoughts more cogently than I: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/more-than-just-a-symbol/476490/ Bernie's no anti-feminist, but it's just another issue for him.

This is really twisted logic and shows a misunderstanding about feminism which has been promoted by the right wing and not by feminists. Just because an issue affects men does not mean it is not a feminist issue. Everything affects men. [i] I have no time to read your article but that is a completely erroneous statement.

Talk about twisting. That's not what I said. I said that's a non-sensical measure by which to judge Sanders as "the real feminist."

And if I were you, I'd take that careless implication that I, as a Clinton supporter, am in the thrall of the Right Wing and carefully tuck it far away.

Perhaps you are not listening to the right wing about feminism but your logic regarding female fetuses and your strange statements about welfare reform affecting men more than women are too bizarre to comment on respectfully. If you knew anything about feminism you would understand that economics have always been an important part of the equation. If you can think of a better way to explain what you were trying to communicate, please do. Otherwise I am just going to have to chalk this up to you not making any sense whatsoever.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Like I said, I do not have time for a long, detailed post on this today. It would take me all day to outline my reasons that Sanders is a better feminist but, most of all, it is important to point out that you really can't separate gender from race and class. Feminists are about equality for all, and not just the equal rights of financially privileged women. For that reason, a living wage, single payer healthcare, childcare, maternity leave, equal pay are a very big deal for women. Economic fairness should not be downplayed and Clinton is simply not on the same level as Sanders on those issues. She is okay on some but not all of these issues and, if single mothers are not entitled to a living wage, they really don't stand a chance and neither do their children.

Sanders was a leading opponent of welfare reform, NAFTA and TPP. I can't understand how any feminist could downplay the harm to women of those particular policies.

As far as where the two candidates stand on specific women's issues, they are pretty comparable. They are about the same on reproductive freedom and on childcare and I do not expect either one of them to flip flop on those issues.

I could say a lot of things about the reasons I do not believe Clinton is a real feminist and, if I were to get into that, we would have to discuss a lot of things which have already been discussed on this board. I am not going to do again that since you asked me about Sanders and the main thing about Sanders is that there is not much I can say about him and his record on women's issues that isn't positive. He is a self identified feminist who has shown us that he will always stand up for the rights of women. Clinton has shown us that she is perfectly willing to compromise.

Sanders supporters keep talking about this and welfare reform, but in truth, both of those things hurt men as well as women, and in some instances, arguably more. So that particular argument for Sanders as the better feminist sounds about as non-sensical as the anti-choice claim that since 50% of the fetuses killed by abortion are female, it necessarily follows that being pro-choice is antifeminist. Furthermore, Hillary wasn't in elected office at the time of any of those policies' creations.

And a rebuttal that argues my thoughts more cogently than I: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/more-than-just-a-symbol/476490/ Bernie's no anti-feminist, but it's just another issue for him.

This is really twisted logic and shows a misunderstanding about feminism which has been promoted by the right wing and not by feminists. Just because an issue affects men does not mean it is not a feminist issue. Everything affects men. [i] I have no time to read your article but that is a completely erroneous statement.

Talk about twisting. That's not what I said. I said that's a non-sensical measure by which to judge Sanders as "the real feminist."

And if I were you, I'd take that careless implication that I, as a Clinton supporter, am in the thrall of the Right Wing and carefully tuck it far away.

Okay, now we are just trolling...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gee I guess trump will claim to be the real feminist, because he hires a lot of women.

Sanders is not claiming to be the "real feminist." I made that statement based on the article which I am sure you are not interested in reading...

It is absurd to compare Sanders to Trump. They could not be more different.

Not sure something on huff po qualifies as "an article," opinion piece would be more accurate.

Yeah, I've stopped reading Huff Po, Daily Kos, Daily Newsbin, Blue Nation Review, us uncut etc. etc.

Anonymous wrote:Gee I guess trump will claim to be the real feminist, because he hires a lot of women.

And let's not forget Mitt, he had those binders.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gee I guess trump will claim to be the real feminist, because he hires a lot of women.

Sanders is not claiming to be the "real feminist." I made that statement based on the article which I am sure you are not interested in reading...

It is absurd to compare Sanders to Trump. They could not be more different.

Not sure something on huff po qualifies as "an article," opinion piece would be more accurate.

Anonymous wrote:Gee I guess trump will claim to be the real feminist, because he hires a lot of women.

Sanders is not claiming to be the "real feminist." I made that statement based on the article which I am sure you are not interested in reading...

It is absurd to compare Sanders to Trump. They could not be more different.

Anonymous wrote:Gee I guess trump will claim to be the real feminist, because he hires a lot of women.

I am pretty sure he has actually said that lol

Anonymous wrote:Gee I guess trump will claim to be the real feminist, because he hires a lot of women.

And he admires women... especially when they are on their knees.

Gee I guess trump will claim to be the real feminist, because he hires a lot of women.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Like I said, I do not have time for a long, detailed post on this today. It would take me all day to outline my reasons that Sanders is a better feminist but, most of all, it is important to point out that you really can't separate gender from race and class. Feminists are about equality for all, and not just the equal rights of financially privileged women. For that reason, a living wage, single payer healthcare, childcare, maternity leave, equal pay are a very big deal for women. Economic fairness should not be downplayed and Clinton is simply not on the same level as Sanders on those issues. She is okay on some but not all of these issues and, if single mothers are not entitled to a living wage, they really don't stand a chance and neither do their children.

Sanders was a leading opponent of welfare reform, NAFTA and TPP. I can't understand how any feminist could downplay the harm to women of those particular policies.

As far as where the two candidates stand on specific women's issues, they are pretty comparable. They are about the same on reproductive freedom and on childcare and I do not expect either one of them to flip flop on those issues.

I could say a lot of things about the reasons I do not believe Clinton is a real feminist and, if I were to get into that, we would have to discuss a lot of things which have already been discussed on this board. I am not going to do again that since you asked me about Sanders and the main thing about Sanders is that there is not much I can say about him and his record on women's issues that isn't positive. He is a self identified feminist who has shown us that he will always stand up for the rights of women. Clinton has shown us that she is perfectly willing to compromise.

Sanders supporters keep talking about this and welfare reform, but in truth, both of those things hurt men as well as women, and in some instances, arguably more. So that particular argument for Sanders as the better feminist sounds about as non-sensical as the anti-choice claim that since 50% of the fetuses killed by abortion are female, it necessarily follows that being pro-choice is antifeminist. Furthermore, Hillary wasn't in elected office at the time of any of those policies' creations.

And a rebuttal that argues my thoughts more cogently than I: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/more-than-just-a-symbol/476490/ Bernie's no anti-feminist, but it's just another issue for him.

This is really twisted logic and shows a misunderstanding about feminism which has been promoted by the right wing and not by feminists. Just because an issue affects men does not mean it is not a feminist issue. Everything affects men. [i] I have no time to read your article but that is a completely erroneous statement.

Well then, if welfare reform and TPP were feminist issues, so was Sierra Blanca. And the Brady Bill, and like someone said before, the Minute Men.

If child care and healthcare are important feminist issues, Hillary was a pioneer in health care reform and then she was instrumental in implementing healthcare for children. She was also very involved in Children's Defense Fund. I am not sure why that doesn't make her a "real"feminist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Like I said, I do not have time for a long, detailed post on this today. It would take me all day to outline my reasons that Sanders is a better feminist but, most of all, it is important to point out that you really can't separate gender from race and class. Feminists are about equality for all, and not just the equal rights of financially privileged women. For that reason, a living wage, single payer healthcare, childcare, maternity leave, equal pay are a very big deal for women. Economic fairness should not be downplayed and Clinton is simply not on the same level as Sanders on those issues. She is okay on some but not all of these issues and, if single mothers are not entitled to a living wage, they really don't stand a chance and neither do their children.

Sanders was a leading opponent of welfare reform, NAFTA and TPP. I can't understand how any feminist could downplay the harm to women of those particular policies.

As far as where the two candidates stand on specific women's issues, they are pretty comparable. They are about the same on reproductive freedom and on childcare and I do not expect either one of them to flip flop on those issues.

I could say a lot of things about the reasons I do not believe Clinton is a real feminist and, if I were to get into that, we would have to discuss a lot of things which have already been discussed on this board. I am not going to do again that since you asked me about Sanders and the main thing about Sanders is that there is not much I can say about him and his record on women's issues that isn't positive. He is a self identified feminist who has shown us that he will always stand up for the rights of women. Clinton has shown us that she is perfectly willing to compromise.

Sanders supporters keep talking about this and welfare reform, but in truth, both of those things hurt men as well as women, and in some instances, arguably more. So that particular argument for Sanders as the better feminist sounds about as non-sensical as the anti-choice claim that since 50% of the fetuses killed by abortion are female, it necessarily follows that being pro-choice is antifeminist. Furthermore, Hillary wasn't in elected office at the time of any of those policies' creations.

And a rebuttal that argues my thoughts more cogently than I: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/more-than-just-a-symbol/476490/ Bernie's no anti-feminist, but it's just another issue for him.

This is really twisted logic and shows a misunderstanding about feminism which has been promoted by the right wing and not by feminists. Just because an issue affects men does not mean it is not a feminist issue. Everything affects men. [i] I have no time to read your article but that is a completely erroneous statement.

Anonymous wrote:
Like I said, I do not have time for a long, detailed post on this today. It would take me all day to outline my reasons that Sanders is a better feminist but, most of all, it is important to point out that you really can't separate gender from race and class. Feminists are about equality for all, and not just the equal rights of financially privileged women. For that reason, a living wage, single payer healthcare, childcare, maternity leave, equal pay are a very big deal for women. Economic fairness should not be downplayed and Clinton is simply not on the same level as Sanders on those issues. She is okay on some but not all of these issues and, if single mothers are not entitled to a living wage, they really don't stand a chance and neither do their children.

Sanders was a leading opponent of welfare reform, NAFTA and TPP. I can't understand how any feminist could downplay the harm to women of those particular policies.

As far as where the two candidates stand on specific women's issues, they are pretty comparable. They are about the same on reproductive freedom and on childcare and I do not expect either one of them to flip flop on those issues.

I could say a lot of things about the reasons I do not believe Clinton is a real feminist and, if I were to get into that, we would have to discuss a lot of things which have already been discussed on this board. I am not going to do again that since you asked me about Sanders and the main thing about Sanders is that there is not much I can say about him and his record on women's issues that isn't positive. He is a self identified feminist who has shown us that he will always stand up for the rights of women. Clinton has shown us that she is perfectly willing to compromise.

Sanders supporters keep talking about this and welfare reform, but in truth, both of those things hurt men as well as women, and in some instances, arguably more. So that particular argument for Sanders as the better feminist sounds about as non-sensical as the anti-choice claim that since 50% of the fetuses killed by abortion are female, it necessarily follows that being pro-choice is antifeminist. Furthermore, Hillary wasn't in elected office at the time of any of those policies' creations.

And a rebuttal that argues my thoughts more cogently than I: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/04/more-than-just-a-symbol/476490/ Bernie's no anti-feminist, but it's just another issue for him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:


What I can say about Sanders is that he has been consistent on women's issues for his entire career which leads me to believe that he would continue in that regard. Clinton, as Secretary of State, had a much larger stage on which to do positive work for women around the world. Sanders has shown that he is not willing to compromise when it comes to legislation that will benefit women. Welfare reform was a big deal which Clinton supporters seem to want to minimize. Are we not interested in poor women? Are we only interested in pay equity for high earning women and in breaking the glass ceiling? In my book, a feminist must not compromise on the interests of impoverished women.

If I have time, i will write a longer post about where the two candidates have differed on women's interests but right now I cannot go into detail.

I think this comes to the heart of the difference between Clinton and Sanders. Clinton, particularly as SoS, has been in a position where she has responsibilities to implement and execute, not just design policy. Even as FLOTUS, and very likely a close confidante of her husband, she had to balance getting something done against holding out for the ideological perfect. I spent too long in DC to believe you can get everything you want when making the proverbial sausage...and I respect that Clinton has had to make choices and do things that are less than ideal. I understand that other people feel differently, or they have different lines that they are unwilling to cross than I do, but please recognize that this is the reality of the political and governance process. A lot of people in this country, and the world, disagree with what you think is "right". You can make the choice not to support a candidate who has willingly worked with those people to pass legislation or make policy (domestic and foreign), but you should recognize that not everyone will make the same choice. I view Clinton's ability to find compromises that move policy forward as an asset...others obviously view it as a liability. I just wish, though, that people would stop calling her two-faced and pandering instead of realizing that this is a necessity when making policy. Something I know firsthand from having had to negotiate policies myself and then being excoriating (in a much more insular and private platform, but still) for the compromises I had to make...never being given credit for how much worse it would have been if I hadn't been in the conversation or had refused to negotiate at all.

OP here. I want to thank you and the pp above for engaging in respectful, intelligent discussion about the real issue here instead of saying silly things to try to trap me into admitting that I contradicted myself and making ridiculous comments like "methinks you walked into that one." I have no interest in defending myself.

We are discussing who is the better candidate for women. I do agree that having a woman president is a great step for women in and of itself. Nevertheless, I want very much to see a president who is really going to implement pro-woman policy and my trust in Clinton to do that is very low. I worry that she will do more harm than good. I do understand the need for compromise and I really can't say what Sanders would be able to accomplish or what overall effects he mights have on government if he were president. We are all guessing but if you look at his record, it is one that I trust whereas it looks like Clinton could go either way on many things.

OP, your whole initial post was an attack on Clinton. It certainly did not scream "respectful, intelligent discussion." Go back and re-read it. That aside, you yourself set forth a definition for what a good feminist does. And I asked you twice, what exactly has Sanders done to meet that definition. Why don't you answer that?

It is not an attack to say that Clinton is not a real feminist. I already told you that Sanders has been consistent in his policy regarding women's interests and Clinton has not. I am not attacking anyone. I am expressing an opinion and I have not been disrespectful in any way.

I was asking for concrete examples, not your assessment of Sanders' consistency. I genuinely don't know, maybe you can educate me on specifics.

Like I said, I do not have time for a long, detailed post on this today. It would take me all day to outline my reasons that Sanders is a better feminist but, most of all, it is important to point out that you really can't separate gender from race and class. Feminists are about equality for all, and not just the equal rights of financially privileged women. For that reason, a living wage, single payer healthcare, childcare, maternity leave, equal pay are a very big deal for women. Economic fairness should not be downplayed and Clinton is simply not on the same level as Sanders on those issues. She is okay on some but not all of these issues and, if single mothers are not entitled to a living wage, they really don't stand a chance and neither do their children.

Sanders was a leading opponent of welfare reform, NAFTA and TPP. I can't understand how any feminist could downplay the harm to women of those particular policies.

As far as where the two candidates stand on specific women's issues, they are pretty comparable. They are about the same on reproductive freedom and on childcare and I do not expect either one of them to flip flop on those issues.

I could say a lot of things about the reasons I do not believe Clinton is a real feminist and, if I were to get into that, we would have to discuss a lot of things which have already been discussed on this board. I am not going to do again that since you asked me about Sanders and the main thing about Sanders is that there is not much I can say about him and his record on women's issues that isn't positive. He is a self identified feminist who has shown us that he will always stand up for the rights of women. Clinton has shown us that she is perfectly willing to compromise.