Anonymous wrote:I am in the process of trying to start a troop at my daughters school. It has been ridiculously difficult and frustrating to do, and this discussion is not encouraging.

That said I'm quite outdoorsy and that's what I'm hoping this troop can provide for the girls, so hopefully I am able to help direct that. I also have no problem telling the GSs to go take a hike when it comes to direct sales. That's just not going to happen.

THIS! Me too. We should be co-leaders.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are disillusioned with GS and have a daughter that is 14 or older, consider the Boy Scouts Venture program. This is a co-ed program fully run and operated by the BSA. I don't know the details, but my understanding is that they focus on the boy scout-like activities (canoeing, rock climbing, hiking, rafting, etc.) without the emphasis of earning merit badges and achieving rank.

OMG, I just googled this and got goosebumps watching the video! This could be exactly what my very adventurous daughter has been looking for! Thanks so much for the information!

PP here - actually, I just read more details and while it does sound like a fun program, there's still too much red tape, paperwork, and requirements for my taste. I just want a group that my daughter can take part in adventures with without having to jump through all the other hoops.

The hoops are all there because someone, somewhere decided to be an asshole (or worse!) and some parent was a jerk and/or sue-happy.

All scouting is going to have training, policies and red tape. If you want to do really cool stuff like rafting, kayaking, hiking to difficult places, rock climbing, etc; then you are going to have to take risks that require some management. The benefit of scouting is that they are going to provide training and supervision to manage and reduce these physical risks. In addition, there are also sexual abuse and bullying concerns around any organized activity involving kids. I would think any parent would want some level of red tape and training to feel comfortable. Likewise, these organizations won't survive without protecting themselves against lawsuits for failing to manage these risks. It is just prudent. That is not to say that these organizations couldn't be more efficient with the red tape, but I don't see it going away.

Anonymous wrote:
NP. I haven't taken the training, but am curious to know what it focused on. I can always use a refresher but feel like I've got my outdoor skills pretty well down - am comfortable solo backpacking, building a fire, navigating, top-roping, was a WEMT at one point, etc. But I'm still anxious about the thought of leading a whole bunch of inexperienced girls doing it for the first time.

Outdoor Cooking and Campout training is the first level of camp training and is designed to train leaders to take girls camping to established campgrounds with car parking nearby, some kind of potty and drinkable water. MOre advanced training os for lightweight camping (no more than 2 miles from a car, pack in your own water or purify but stay in one location) and then even more advanced is backpacking.

They go over a lot -- it isn't about camping so much as it is about dealing with young girls camping away from home possibly for the first time, without their parents. How to prepare them and to think ahead about situations that might come up. It's a lot of progression... you build up the skills girls need.

Here are my notes from the training I took:

- bedwetting (esp on a 2 day over night) and how to handle, not have girl embarrassed
- dealing with girls who needed to use the latrine at night
- prepare girls for night noises by doing certain activities
- how to help girls plan their own campout
-activities that would help girls get ready to light matches and campfires (some girls are quite fearful of this)
- how to help girls who are scared about camping without their parents.

I also learned what forms and procedures need to be followed in order to camp according to GS policies.
Frankly the most useful part of the experience was hearing stories from the experienced leaders. Just camping experience on your own is one thing, but camping taking 12-18 girls is another thing entirely.


Syllabus of Cookout and Campout course:


Health and Safety:
1. Use resources to identify health and safety procedures necessary for a cookout or campout with Girl Scouts

Leadership and Girl Ownership:
2. Identify various levels of progression in the areas of outdoor skills, outdoor cooking methods, and in Girl Scouting

Ownership
3. Use kaper charts for a cook-out or campout

Site:
4. State the rules regarding GSCNC site maintenance
5. State the process of securing a GSCNC campsite
6. Use minimal impact camping procedures through proper site set-up, use and clean-up
7. Set up, care for, and strike a nylon tent
8. Set up, care for, and strike a tarp
9. State the process for cleaning latrines and handwashing

Food and Cooking:
10. Budget for and plan menus for a group, considering cultural, religious, and individual needs
11. Prepare, cook, serve, and clean-up a simple meal outdoors. Describe how to purchase, pack and store
food supplies for a simple meal
12. Use the one pot, basic stick, skillet/griddle, and box oven cooking methods
13. Demonstrate safety procedures for simple tools and kitchen implements necessary for a cookout

Fire and Stoves:
14. Safely build, maintain and extinguish an individual wood fire
15. Describe how to safely transport, build, maintain and extinguish a charcoal briquette fire
16. Describe how to safely transport and use both propane and white gas portable cookstoves

Tools and Equipment:
17. Use appropriate personal and troop equipment for an overnight experience
18. Identify the proper clothing and accessories for activities in the outdoors
19. Use appropriate sleeping systems for camping, including a bedroll
20. Safely set up, use, and care for wick (lamp oil or kerosene) lanterns. Describe how to safely transport and
store lanterns and fuel
21. Describe the safe use of a bow saw and knife (jackknife and other sharp equipment)

Girl Scout Program:
22. Participate in a form of grace, considering cultural sensitivity
23. Plan and/or participate in an outdoor flag ceremony, Girl Scouts’ Own and campfire ceremony

Good idea of preparing girls:

NIGHT CONCERNS

Explore night noises and sound:
Play games and exercises to help girls adjust to outdoor darkness.
Practice gaining “night eyes” by keeping flashlights off for specified periods of time. Compare
vision before and later.
Teach “animal ears” to heighten ability to maneuver at night. Cup hands around ears. Listen and
compare with and without hands.
Help deal with fear of dark:
Identify noises, calm fears; perhaps allow sleeping with lit flashlight or glowstick.

Bedwetting or soiling:

Discuss possibility with girls ahead of time. Sometimes this happens. If it does, change into dry
clothes and put wet ones in a plastic bag. Be sure to tell an adult so the sleeping bag can be dried out. It happens; it’s not the end of the world.
If you are aware prior to the camping trip that a girl does occasionally wet the bed, encourage the parents to send along an extra set of clothes (including sleepwear), and a leak proof plastic bag. Thoroughly wash and rinse hands after handling soiled or wet items.

Sleepwalking:
Place known sleepwalker by a light sleeper Position adult near door
Be aware of potential hazards

Night blindness:
Sometimes occurs when glasses or contact lenses are removed; use the buddy system.

Anonymous wrote:The thing is, there is very little in the official GS Program that has to do with the outdoors, certainly not camping. It isn't like Cub Scouts where going camping is built into advancement. So if camping is something that interests you as a leader or your girls, going camping is really going to be on you.

This is the problem!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a troop leader (also OP) and I did do the training to be camp certified. It did not take the whole weekend; it was one full day (a Saturday) and an overnight o Sunday morning 9 AM. Yes, it took a lot of time but it is now lifetime certification -- no need to ever renew. And with that one training I can take our girls to all kinds of camping trips. So yeah, it was a one day (and overnight) investment in my daughter's troop -- but worth it. After all if you take the girls camping that takes up a whole weekend!

I also did the archery training, which was about a 6 hour training I think. And my coleader took Kayak training -- another 6 hours. But now, that's pretty much it. With those trainings (plus First Aid and CPR -- which is another half day or online training) we have access to a lot of outdoor camping trips and activities without needing to hire anybody or wait for a Service Unit to put anything on for us.

I think once you just bite the bullet and take the trainings ONCE you will realize it wasn't that big a deal, and it opens you up to being able to do a LOT of fun, inexpensive activities.

I'm camp and First Aid certified, and the training did not give me the confidence to take a dozen girls camping, especially given how little prior exposure most of them have had to this kind of outdoor activity. I recommend getting the training, but I'd still like to see GSCNC offer more structured outdoor programs.

NP. I haven't taken the training, but am curious to know what it focused on. I can always use a refresher but feel like I've got my outdoor skills pretty well down - am comfortable solo backpacking, building a fire, navigating, top-roping, was a WEMT at one point, etc. But I'm still anxious about the thought of leading a whole bunch of inexperienced girls doing it for the first time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree with the prior posters that the Journeys are dumb and there is too much red tape. That said, there are a lot of awesome activities sponsored by the Council and the Service Units. The engineering thing at NASA looked awesome, and I was bummed we couldn't get our troop act together in time to register before it booked up.

I wish we could get more advance notice of these things. I'm already planning through February. Hearing about programs a month ahead doesn't help me much.

Well, that's not Council's fault. They are just passing on invitations they get from other organizations.

Anonymous wrote:
I'm camp and First Aid certified, and the training did not give me the confidence to take a dozen girls camping, especially given how little prior exposure most of them have had to this kind of outdoor activity. I recommend getting the training, but I'd still like to see GSCNC offer more structured outdoor programs.

The thing is, there is very little in the official GS Program that has to do with the outdoors, certainly not camping. It isn't like Cub Scouts where going camping is built into advancement. So if camping is something that interests you as a leader or your girls, going camping is really going to be on you.

The council does offer more training than just Cookout and Campout though. You might have to travel, but there are Training Blitzes happening this fall and then again in the spring. For example next weekend at Camp Crowell:

http://www.gscnc.org/en/events-repository/2015/october_camp_crowell.html


There will be training in:

Fire Building
Learn the principles and how-to basic fire building. Be able to teach your girls safety around fires for cooking and entertainment. Learn to be respectful, not afraid of fire.

Outdoor Cooking Step 2:
Learn about dutch oven, advanced one pot, foil packets, open grilling with kids, camp stove cooking and getting kids to eat something new.

Cooking with gizmos and Gadgets,
See how to cook using "Gizmos" and "Gadgets" - including: a hot dog in a milk carton, dutch ovens, flowerpots, and various applications of household items such as pizza in pie tins. This is an advanced cooking course for beyond the first two Cookout classes.

And at the Winona Blitz the next weekend there will be training in Outdoor Cooking, and Campfire and Night Hikes.

And there are plenty more. Go to one or two more trainings and I bet you will feel more comfortable! Also, you can get a lot of experience with just a simple camp skills day, before you venture out on an overnight, if you don't feel comfortable.

Anonymous wrote:As someone who did scouting as a girl and is now a mom, this thread was very enlightening. I am curious - why did the GS decide they needed to overhaul the system? What did they perceive as wrong with GS that required pushing out all seasoned staff and adapting new goals or tasks? (Sorry if my terminology is off.)

OP here -- THAT is a really good question.

Near as I can figure out, they were looking for a better source of income than girl membership and cookies, and figured they'd have better luck getting reliable funding from grants. But to do so they needed to have a different "curriculum"? Thus the "Girl Scout Leadership Experience" was born -- from Daisies to Ambassadors, girls Discover, Connect and Take Action (hopefully in a sustainable way. This is essentially grant proposal training, where you discover a community need; connect with community groups to solve the problem and then take action in away that isn't a one time project but will be sustainable.

We tried GS as well and found what a lot of other people mentioned - lots of red tape, confusing to start the troop, etc. We ended up joining American Heritage Girls which is like Boy Scouts but for girls who are Christian. While GS has been declining, AHG was formed in 1995 and now has 860 troops in the US and is growing by 30 troops/month.

We just went on a fantastic camping trip last weekend for NoVa that 500 people participated in. We did lots of fun outdoor stuff - knife safety, water purification, outdoor cooking, fire building, etc. Plus we have a great book full of fun and exciting badges to choose from.

$4! unless you want the gluten-free

Anonymous wrote:

But can we all agree that it's a better organization than the Boy Scouts?


No.

I have boys in boy scouts (no daughters) but from what I see above, it doesn't sound better. My sons have not experienced any pressure to sell things/fund raise. There is a camping outing at least once a month.

Really? We got hit up for that terrible, expensive popcorn twice in the same day last week. (My husband the sucker bought both times.)

They ask the boys to sell popcorn, but it's not a big deal if they don't. It's the only fundraiser they do.

Look, while I'm not a huge fan of selling popcorn, the money we got from doing so did enable our troop to purchase uniforms and guide books for the two boys in the troop who would not have otherwise been able to participate, and some extra sleeping bag and tents that their families could use as well.

I do get that but at least the girl scout cookies are only $5. $15-$20 for bagged popcorn is crazytown!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't love cookie sales, and we do them in a very-low key way--participation is optional, no cookie college, no cookie rallies, one booth sale at school--but our troop still earns $700-$1000 each year. It does help pay for a lot, including all fees for girls who could not otherwise afford to participate.

As an aside, SHARE is designed to cover girls who cannot otherwise afford scouting.

GSCNC will cover the GSUSA registration fee, a basic uniform (sash, not vest), and up to $25 in troop dues, but our troop funds pay for everything else (e.g., father-daughter dance registration fee).

As someone who did scouting as a girl and is now a mom, this thread was very enlightening. I am curious - why did the GS decide they needed to overhaul the system? What did they perceive as wrong with GS that required pushing out all seasoned staff and adapting new goals or tasks? (Sorry if my terminology is off.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a troop leader (also OP) and I did do the training to be camp certified. It did not take the whole weekend; it was one full day (a Saturday) and an overnight o Sunday morning 9 AM. Yes, it took a lot of time but it is now lifetime certification -- no need to ever renew. And with that one training I can take our girls to all kinds of camping trips. So yeah, it was a one day (and overnight) investment in my daughter's troop -- but worth it. After all if you take the girls camping that takes up a whole weekend!

I also did the archery training, which was about a 6 hour training I think. And my coleader took Kayak training -- another 6 hours. But now, that's pretty much it. With those trainings (plus First Aid and CPR -- which is another half day or online training) we have access to a lot of outdoor camping trips and activities without needing to hire anybody or wait for a Service Unit to put anything on for us.

I think once you just bite the bullet and take the trainings ONCE you will realize it wasn't that big a deal, and it opens you up to being able to do a LOT of fun, inexpensive activities.

I'm camp and First Aid certified, and the training did not give me the confidence to take a dozen girls camping, especially given how little prior exposure most of them have had to this kind of outdoor activity. I recommend getting the training, but I'd still like to see GSCNC offer more structured outdoor programs.

+1. Maybe it's a staffing issue. They rely on volunteers to train the volunteers. It's kind of dumb. The only people I know in GS who are paid are those who have some hand in fundraising, and I include membership specialists in that because they get paid to bring in paying members. Sad but true.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Reading this I am so glad I said no when my husband mentioned enrolling our K student in GS during back to school night. Frankly, it sounds like a bore. Whey would I want my to get involved with something that is mainly about selling overpriced cookies and the money doesn't even come back to my child's benefit?

So, what is the objective of the cookies (and other fundraisers) sale if apparently the girls only do some crafts and talk about feelings? Isn't it cheaper to just get a list of supplies needed and head to Michael's or Target?

I don't love cookie sales, and we do them in a very-low key way--participation is optional, no cookie college, no cookie rallies, one booth sale at school--but our troop still earns $700-$1000 each year. It does help pay for a lot, including all fees for girls who could not otherwise afford to participate.

As an aside, SHARE is designed to cover girls who cannot otherwise afford scouting.