DCUM Forum

Anonymous

06/26/2015 17:17 Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

Anonymous wrote:
Sorry, you just demonstrated your own reading comprehension problems. Clearly you need somebody to unpack this for you. Bullets would probably help.
1- You, an atheist, are telling believers that it's "simple" for believers to forgive.
2 - This is because you, an atheist, think you know what believers think better than the believers themselves.
3- You're wrong on both counts.
4- 13:51, a believer, has the creds to talk about what believers think.
5- 13:51 is talking about mental anguish.
6- Stop telling believers like 13:51 that their references to mental anguish are wrong because you, an atheist, know that it's as easy as door #2.

Really, you look ridiculous, besides being challenged reading comprehension-wise.

I numbered it to keep it straight.

1. No, I am arguing that it is simpler for believers to "accept and forgive" in a tragedy like this, than it is for an atheist. I can't believe this is a point of contention since this is one of the well known benefits of having a religion - it provides answers, guidance, and comforts people in difficult times. Are you saying that religion doesn't provide these things?

2. Nope, I didn't make that claim.

3. You can claim that I'm wrong if you want, doesn't make it true. Winning an argument requires more than just making assertions. You have to provide evidence and reasoning - which admittedly is difficult when you are arguing in support of religion.

4. That's logical fallacy, appeal to authority.

5. So am I. My argument is that atheists have a tougher time with mental anguish in a tragedy like this than people who have religion to fall back on to soften the blow.

6. Again, just claiming that I am wrong doesn't make it so. If you believe that religion *does not* make it easier for people to deal with mental anguish, then please present evidence that religion either makes no difference or makes it more difficult to deal with mental anguish. This will be an uphill battle for you since the mentally soothing effects of religion is well documented.

Anonymous wrote:
Signed, National Merit Scholarship Semi-finalist who believes

This makes me sad.

Anonymous

06/26/2015 17:08 Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

What's with the formatting? Trying again.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I love it when atheists claim to know what believers are thinking. Like when this atheist claims that believers don't experience anguish in forgiving murders, instead that forgiveness only takes "minimal" effort because believers just have to keep telling themselves about heaven. Hah!

Oh the irony...

Tip: when you go for a non-response because you can't think of meaningful response, your non-response still has to make some sort of sense in the context of the thread.

Wow, I bolded the relevant parts that illustrates the irony. Are you not able to read? The PP dislikes the idea that an atheist claim to know what believers are thinking, yet he apparently had no problem with the previous poster who made a rather bold claim about what atheists think. This is ironic. Do you need a dictionary?

Wow. Again, you're the one who can't read. Stop digging yourself in.

1. The PP you cite isn't pretending to read your mind the way you're claiming to read believers' minds about forgiveness being simple.
2. The PP you cite is talking about things you actually said, not what you were thinking. I bolded it for you, to help you. Namely, you said that it's "simple" for believers to forgive. No need for mind-reading because your words are up above for everybody to see. Do you deny actually saying this?

No irony here.

Therefore, you're full of it. Your gratuitous insults just make you look even dimmer than the substance of your posts already suggests.

Anonymous

06/26/2015 17:02 Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[I love it when atheists claim to know what believers are thinking. Like when this atheist claims that believers don't experience anguish in forgiving murders, instead that forgiveness only takes "minimal" effort because believers just have to keep telling themselves about heaven. Hah!

Oh the irony...

Tip: when you go for a non-response because you can't think of meaningful response, your non-response still has to make some sort of sense in the context of the thread.

Wow, I bolded the relevant parts that illustrates the irony. Are you not able to read? The PP dislikes the idea that an atheist claim to know what believers are thinking, yet he apparently had no problem with the previous poster who made a rather bold claim about what atheists think. This is ironic. Do you need a dictionary?

Again, you're the one who can't read. Stop digging yourself in.

1. The PP you cite isn't pretending to read your mind the way you're claiming to read believers' minds about forgiveness being simple.
2. The PP you cite is talking about things you actually said, not what you were thinking. Namely, you said that it's "simple" for believers to forgive. No need for mind-reading because your wordsare up above for everybody to see. Do you deny actually saying this?

No irony here.

Therefore, you're full of it. Stop digging yourself in. And the gratuitous insults just make you look even less intelligent than the substance of your posts already suggests.

Anonymous

06/26/2015 16:55 Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.

It's far more worthy of respect for someone who confronted the tragedy, go through the phases of grief, and eventually come to acceptance and forgiveness, than it is for the baseless mantra of "God teaches us to forgive". The later involves minimal effort, it is not a virtue to blindly accept how one should feel. In fact it is slavery of the mind, to relinquish control of your rationality, to isolate your human emotions, and to believe that it is so becomes some authority told you it is so.

LOL? The fact you call it minimal effort proves you have no idea how it works.

It takes a lot of effort to say something that is so counter-intuitive to the anger and hurt and confusion and trauma that a decent, normal person understandably feels when a loved one is brutally murdered by a madman in a church during Bible study.

Atheists can't imagine the mental anguish it takes for a Christian to do something like that, but Christians know they are doing it because God teaches them that this is the right things to do. They don't worry about their own feelings -- that would be selfish. They think about what God wants and they know that it is forgiving thine enemies - not later once you've worked it through psychologically, but as soon as possible after the heinous act. They know that like their loved ones who were so horribly taken from them, they will be facing God some day and God will reward them for doing the right thing at this extremely difficult moment of their lives.

This is a ridiculous line of reasoning that is false upon examination. What is harder:

1. You must accept and forgive, and you must come to this conclusion on your own, dealing with your roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. You must deal with all of this, with no mental crutch, and realize that despite the tragedy and your suffering, that man is basically good, and that behaving as a good person means accepting the tragedy moving on.

2. You must accept and forgive, because God has a plan and this is all a part of it. You may not understand it, but you must have faith that this is for the greater good. Your loved ones are in heaven, they are with Jesus now. Death is not permanent, this life is only a test. You'll see them again when you move on from this life to the next.

Oh I wish it was as simple as option number 2. But I am not going to surrender my intelligence just so that I can be comfortably numb.

Nobody, but nobody, is saying it's as simple #2. In fact, 13:51 is saying exactly the opposite when she talks about "mental anguish."

I love it when atheists claim to know what believers are thinking. Like when this atheist claims that believers don't experience anguish in forgiving murders, instead that forgiveness only takes "minimal" effort because believers just have to keep telling themselves about heaven. Hah!

Oh the irony...

Tip: when you go for a non-response because you can't think of meaningful response, your non-response still has to make some sort of sense in the context of the thread.

Wow, I bolded the relevant parts that illustrates the irony. Are you not able to read? The PP dislikes the idea that an atheist claim to know what believers are thinking, yet he apparently had no problem with the previous poster who made a rather bold claim about what atheists think. This is ironic. Do you need a dictionary?

Anonymous

06/26/2015 16:54 Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.

It's far more worthy of respect for someone who confronted the tragedy, go through the phases of grief, and eventually come to acceptance and forgiveness, than it is for the baseless mantra of "God teaches us to forgive". The later involves minimal effort, it is not a virtue to blindly accept how one should feel. In fact it is slavery of the mind, to relinquish control of your rationality, to isolate your human emotions, and to believe that it is so becomes some authority told you it is so.

LOL? The fact you call it minimal effort proves you have no idea how it works.

It takes a lot of effort to say something that is so counter-intuitive to the anger and hurt and confusion and trauma that a decent, normal person understandably feels when a loved one is brutally murdered by a madman in a church during Bible study.

Atheists can't imagine the mental anguish it takes for a Christian to do something like that, but Christians know they are doing it because God teaches them that this is the right things to do. They don't worry about their own feelings -- that would be selfish. They think about what God wants and they know that it is forgiving thine enemies - not later once you've worked it through psychologically, but as soon as possible after the heinous act. They know that like their loved ones who were so horribly taken from them, they will be facing God some day and God will reward them for doing the right thing at this extremely difficult moment of their lives.

This is a ridiculous line of reasoning that is false upon examination. What is harder:

1. You must accept and forgive, and you must come to this conclusion on your own, dealing with your roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. You must deal with all of this, with no mental crutch, and realize that despite the tragedy and your suffering, that man is basically good, and that behaving as a good person means accepting the tragedy moving on.

2. You must accept and forgive, because God has a plan and this is all a part of it. You may not understand it, but you must have faith that this is for the greater good. Your loved ones are in heaven, they are with Jesus now. Death is not permanent, this life is only a test. You'll see them again when you move on from this life to the next.

Oh I wish it was as simple as option number 2. But I am not going to surrender my intelligence just so that I can be comfortably numb.

Nobody, but nobody, is saying it's as simple #2. In fact, 13:51 is saying exactly the opposite when she talks about "mental anguish."

Reading comprehension problems? *I* am saying that #2 is simpler and easier than #1, in contradiction to the claims of 13:51.

Sorry, you just demonstrated your own reading comprehension problems. Clearly you need somebody to unpack this for you. Bullets would probably help.
- You, an atheist, are telling believers that it's "simple" for believers to forgive.
- This is because you, an atheist, think you know what believers think better than the believers themselves.
- You're wrong on both counts.
- 13:51, a believer, has the creds to talk about what believers think.
- 13:51 is talking about mental anguish.
- Stop telling believers like 13:51 that their references to mental anguish are wrong because you, an atheist, know that it's as easy as door #2.

Really, you look ridiculous, besides being challenged reading comprehension-wise.

Signed, National Merit Scholarship Semi-finalist who believes

Anonymous

06/26/2015 16:43 Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.

It's far more worthy of respect for someone who confronted the tragedy, go through the phases of grief, and eventually come to acceptance and forgiveness, than it is for the baseless mantra of "God teaches us to forgive". The later involves minimal effort, it is not a virtue to blindly accept how one should feel. In fact it is slavery of the mind, to relinquish control of your rationality, to isolate your human emotions, and to believe that it is so becomes some authority told you it is so.

LOL? The fact you call it minimal effort proves you have no idea how it works.

It takes a lot of effort to say something that is so counter-intuitive to the anger and hurt and confusion and trauma that a decent, normal person understandably feels when a loved one is brutally murdered by a madman in a church during Bible study.

Atheists can't imagine the mental anguish it takes for a Christian to do something like that, but Christians know they are doing it because God teaches them that this is the right things to do. They don't worry about their own feelings -- that would be selfish. They think about what God wants and they know that it is forgiving thine enemies - not later once you've worked it through psychologically, but as soon as possible after the heinous act. They know that like their loved ones who were so horribly taken from them, they will be facing God some day and God will reward them for doing the right thing at this extremely difficult moment of their lives.

This is a ridiculous line of reasoning that is false upon examination. What is harder:

1. You must accept and forgive, and you must come to this conclusion on your own, dealing with your roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. You must deal with all of this, with no mental crutch, and realize that despite the tragedy and your suffering, that man is basically good, and that behaving as a good person means accepting the tragedy moving on.

2. You must accept and forgive, because God has a plan and this is all a part of it. You may not understand it, but you must have faith that this is for the greater good. Your loved ones are in heaven, they are with Jesus now. Death is not permanent, this life is only a test. You'll see them again when you move on from this life to the next.

Oh I wish it was as simple as option number 2. But I am not going to surrender my intelligence just so that I can be comfortably numb.

Nobody, but nobody, is saying it's as simple #2. In fact, 13:51 is saying exactly the opposite when she talks about "mental anguish."

I love it when atheists claim to know what believers are thinking. Like when this atheist claims that believers don't experience anguish in forgiving murders, instead that forgiveness only takes "minimal" effort because believers just have to keep telling themselves about heaven. Hah!

Oh the irony...

Tip: when you go for a non-response because you can't think of meaningful response, your non-response still has to make some sort of sense in the context of the thread.

Anonymous

06/26/2015 16:34 Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.

It's far more worthy of respect for someone who confronted the tragedy, go through the phases of grief, and eventually come to acceptance and forgiveness, than it is for the baseless mantra of "God teaches us to forgive". The later involves minimal effort, it is not a virtue to blindly accept how one should feel. In fact it is slavery of the mind, to relinquish control of your rationality, to isolate your human emotions, and to believe that it is so becomes some authority told you it is so.

LOL? The fact you call it minimal effort proves you have no idea how it works.

It takes a lot of effort to say something that is so counter-intuitive to the anger and hurt and confusion and trauma that a decent, normal person understandably feels when a loved one is brutally murdered by a madman in a church during Bible study.

Atheists can't imagine the mental anguish it takes for a Christian to do something like that, but Christians know they are doing it because God teaches them that this is the right things to do. They don't worry about their own feelings -- that would be selfish. They think about what God wants and they know that it is forgiving thine enemies - not later once you've worked it through psychologically, but as soon as possible after the heinous act. They know that like their loved ones who were so horribly taken from them, they will be facing God some day and God will reward them for doing the right thing at this extremely difficult moment of their lives.

This is a ridiculous line of reasoning that is false upon examination. What is harder:

1. You must accept and forgive, and you must come to this conclusion on your own, dealing with your roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. You must deal with all of this, with no mental crutch, and realize that despite the tragedy and your suffering, that man is basically good, and that behaving as a good person means accepting the tragedy moving on.

2. You must accept and forgive, because God has a plan and this is all a part of it. You may not understand it, but you must have faith that this is for the greater good. Your loved ones are in heaven, they are with Jesus now. Death is not permanent, this life is only a test. You'll see them again when you move on from this life to the next.

Oh I wish it was as simple as option number 2. But I am not going to surrender my intelligence just so that I can be comfortably numb.

Nobody, but nobody, is saying it's as simple #2. In fact, 13:51 is saying exactly the opposite when she talks about "mental anguish."

I love it when atheists claim to know what believers are thinking. Like when this atheist claims that believers don't experience anguish in forgiving murders, instead that forgiveness only takes "minimal" effort because believers just have to keep telling themselves about heaven. Hah!

Oh the irony...

Anonymous

06/26/2015 16:33 Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

Anonymous wrote:Reposting for formatting.

Anonymous wrote:This is a ridiculous line of reasoning that is false upon examination. What is harder:

1. You must accept and forgive, and you must come to this conclusion on your own, dealing with your roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. You must deal with all of this, with no mental crutch, and realize that despite the tragedy and your suffering, that man is basically good, and that behaving as a good person means accepting the tragedy moving on.

2. You must accept and forgive, because God has a plan and this is all a part of it. You may not understand it, but you must have faith that this is for the greater good. Your loved ones are in heaven, they are with Jesus now. Death is not permanent, this life is only a test. You'll see them again when you move on from this life to the next.

Oh I wish it was as simple as option number 2. But I am not going to surrender my intelligence just so that I can be comfortably numb.

Huh? You don't understand humans, human nature, or the nature of belief.

You think God just plops forgiveness and acceptance into the passive believers' brains? Or that just by chanting what you call "some mantra" or
"a crutch" about forgiveness and heaven, that all the pain, anger, disbelief and urges for revenge just magically goes away?

Don't be ridiculous.

No God doesn't plop forgiveness there, because him doing so would actually be evidence that he exists. He doesn't, therefore God doesn't do that, no.

The argument is that religion teaches acceptance and forgiveness with a story that makes it much easier for someone to deal with tragedy and loss. Do you disagree with this?

Anonymous

06/26/2015 16:28 Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.

It's far more worthy of respect for someone who confronted the tragedy, go through the phases of grief, and eventually come to acceptance and forgiveness, than it is for the baseless mantra of "God teaches us to forgive". The later involves minimal effort, it is not a virtue to blindly accept how one should feel. In fact it is slavery of the mind, to relinquish control of your rationality, to isolate your human emotions, and to believe that it is so becomes some authority told you it is so.

LOL? The fact you call it minimal effort proves you have no idea how it works.

It takes a lot of effort to say something that is so counter-intuitive to the anger and hurt and confusion and trauma that a decent, normal person understandably feels when a loved one is brutally murdered by a madman in a church during Bible study.

Atheists can't imagine the mental anguish it takes for a Christian to do something like that, but Christians know they are doing it because God teaches them that this is the right things to do. They don't worry about their own feelings -- that would be selfish. They think about what God wants and they know that it is forgiving thine enemies - not later once you've worked it through psychologically, but as soon as possible after the heinous act. They know that like their loved ones who were so horribly taken from them, they will be facing God some day and God will reward them for doing the right thing at this extremely difficult moment of their lives.

This is a ridiculous line of reasoning that is false upon examination. What is harder:

1. You must accept and forgive, and you must come to this conclusion on your own, dealing with your roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. You must deal with all of this, with no mental crutch, and realize that despite the tragedy and your suffering, that man is basically good, and that behaving as a good person means accepting the tragedy moving on.

2. You must accept and forgive, because God has a plan and this is all a part of it. You may not understand it, but you must have faith that this is for the greater good. Your loved ones are in heaven, they are with Jesus now. Death is not permanent, this life is only a test. You'll see them again when you move on from this life to the next.

Oh I wish it was as simple as option number 2. But I am not going to surrender my intelligence just so that I can be comfortably numb.

Nobody, but nobody, is saying it's as simple #2. In fact, 13:51 is saying exactly the opposite when she talks about "mental anguish."

Reading comprehension problems? *I* am saying that #2 is simpler and easier than #1, in contradiction to the claims of 13:51.

Anonymous

06/26/2015 15:56 Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP. Like others here, I find the outpouring of sympathy and forgiveness inspiring instead of discouraging. Especially the forgiveness, which is so hard yet so fundamental to their faith.

It's far more worthy of respect for someone who confronted the tragedy, go through the phases of grief, and eventually come to acceptance and forgiveness, than it is for the baseless mantra of "God teaches us to forgive". The later involves minimal effort, it is not a virtue to blindly accept how one should feel. In fact it is slavery of the mind, to relinquish control of your rationality, to isolate your human emotions, and to believe that it is so becomes some authority told you it is so.

LOL? The fact you call it minimal effort proves you have no idea how it works.

It takes a lot of effort to say something that is so counter-intuitive to the anger and hurt and confusion and trauma that a decent, normal person understandably feels when a loved one is brutally murdered by a madman in a church during Bible study.

Atheists can't imagine the mental anguish it takes for a Christian to do something like that, but Christians know they are doing it because God teaches them that this is the right things to do. They don't worry about their own feelings -- that would be selfish. They think about what God wants and they know that it is forgiving thine enemies - not later once you've worked it through psychologically, but as soon as possible after the heinous act. They know that like their loved ones who were so horribly taken from them, they will be facing God some day and God will reward them for doing the right thing at this extremely difficult moment of their lives.

This is a ridiculous line of reasoning that is false upon examination. What is harder:

1. You must accept and forgive, and you must come to this conclusion on your own, dealing with your roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. You must deal with all of this, with no mental crutch, and realize that despite the tragedy and your suffering, that man is basically good, and that behaving as a good person means accepting the tragedy moving on.

2. You must accept and forgive, because God has a plan and this is all a part of it. You may not understand it, but you must have faith that this is for the greater good. Your loved ones are in heaven, they are with Jesus now. Death is not permanent, this life is only a test. You'll see them again when you move on from this life to the next.

Oh I wish it was as simple as option number 2. But I am not going to surrender my intelligence just so that I can be comfortably numb.

Nobody, but nobody, is saying it's as simple #2. In fact, 13:51 is saying exactly the opposite when she talks about "mental anguish."

I love it when atheists claim to know what believers are thinking. Like when this atheist claims that believers don't experience anguish in forgiving murders, instead that forgiveness only takes "minimal" effort because believers just have to keep telling themselves about heaven. Hah!

Anonymous

06/26/2015 15:51 Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

Anonymous wrote:
True. Smart people can come up with very good arguments to believe very bad ideas. That doesn't magically make those good ideas "good" or "correct".

And anybody, smart or dumb, can spout trite banalities that mean absolutely nothing wrt this thread or the validity of faith in general. Congrats, PP.

Anonymous

06/26/2015 15:46 Subject: Is the Charleston church shooting making anyone doubt their Faith?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a ridiculous line of reasoning that is false upon examination. What is harder:

1. You must accept and forgive, and you must come to this conclusion on your own, dealing with your roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. You must deal with all of this, with no mental crutch, and realize that despite the tragedy and your suffering, that man is basically good, and that behaving as a good person means accepting the tragedy moving on.

2. You must accept and forgive, because God has a plan and this is all a part of it. You may not understand it, but you must have faith that this is for the greater good. Your loved ones are in heaven, they are with Jesus now. Death is not permanent, this life is only a test. You'll see them again when you move on from this life to the next.

Oh I wish it was as simple as option number 2. But I am not going to surrender my intelligence just so that I can be comfortably numb.

Huh? You don't understand humans, human nature, or the nature of belief.

You think God just plops forgiveness and acceptance into the passive believers' brains? Or that just by chanting what you call "some mantra" or
"a crutch" about forgiveness and acceptance and heaven, that all the pain, anger, disbelief and urges for revenge will just go away?

Don't be ridiculous.

Of course believers have to work on their own deal with roiling feelings of grief, anger at the senselessness, disbelief that the unlikely has indeed happened, questioning why bad things happen to good people, and a natural urge to exact revenge. Add to this, bellievers may have to deal with the challenge to faith that OP is clearly dying to document but hasn't succeeded in doing.

Also: plenty of brillian folks believe in #2 without surrenduring their intelligence. On the other hand, your poor reasoning skills... oh, never mind.

Brilliant people can believe god's words without surrendering their intelligence. It has nothing to do with intelligence -- it's about faith, which is not related to intelligence. Both smart people and very simple people can have a strong faith and that is all that is needed.

True. Smart people can come up with very good arguments to believe very bad ideas. That doesn't magically make those good ideas "good" or "correct".