For those who are interested in trying to persuade MCPS to change this (and to allow parent contributions to fund an aide in the classroom), where do we start? How do we go about it?

Anonymous wrote:Dcps class sizes are small in an effort to better meet the needs of their low income and under- performing students. The anointed ones in Bethesda don't have the same issues.

Fwiw, there are plenty of mcps schools with reasonable class sizes (Olney, Brookeville). My kids' classes have ranged from 19-24.

Your first statement is belied by the fact that the DCPS schools allowing parents to fund additional aides are the "rich" DCPS schools -- the JKLMM's. Of course, all DCPS schools can do it, but those for certain actually do.

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Anonymous wrote:Yes!!! Let's do this!!!

And then let's hire a chef who will only use locally sourced organic food in the cafeteria!!!

And let's make them wear uniforms!!!

And let's get UA to sponsor our athletic program and donate a turf field!!!

Oh, wait...this is starting to sound like private school.

A slippery slope argument? Yawn. Again, DCPS does this already.

Are we aspiring to model mcps on dcps??? That's hilarious, pp!

Yes, all school systems should aspire to be like DCPS!

How blatantly ignorant. You reject everything DCPS does that's different from MCPS because DCPS = bad? Wow.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes!!! Let's do this!!!

And then let's hire a chef who will only use locally sourced organic food in the cafeteria!!!

And let's make them wear uniforms!!!

And let's get UA to sponsor our athletic program and donate a turf field!!!

Oh, wait...this is starting to sound like private school.

A slippery slope argument? Yawn. Again, DCPS does this already.

Are we aspiring to model mcps on dcps??? That's hilarious, pp!

Yes, all school systems should aspire to be like DCPS!

I would gladly trade my Bethesda MCPS for Mann/Janney, which do this. In a heartbeat. But I can't afford to move there.

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Anonymous wrote:I'm in Chevy Chase, and I do get the rationale behind not permitting private funding for additional teacher. I also believe that high SES schools get huge benefits from the income disparities - whether through the ridiculous amount of after-school enrichment or through fundraising that buys lots of other educational-related goodies for the schools (something tells me CCES has more Promethean boards than a school with mostly FARMS kids.)

But I think it's also a bit bogus to trash on the OP and others who are unhappy with class sizes in the high SES MCPS schools. I understand the rationale for keeping class sizes low in lower SES areas, but that doesn't mean it's appropriate to pack K classrooms to overflow levels in wealthier areas and say, oh screw those kids, their parents can supplement and they have more Promethean boards.
I don't know what the best or most appropriate formula is, and I'm not an MCPS hater either. But it doesn't seem as though the teacher imbalance is really making a dent in the achievement gap anyway.

Nobody has said this.

However, if it is a priority for parents in the wealthy schools for their children to be in smaller classes for K-3, those parents already have options:

1. move to a Title 1 or focus school
2. apply for a COSA to a Title 1 or focus school

Well, if that's the only alternative you find acceptable, then you are saying it's appropriate to pack as many K kids as possible into wealthier schools.

No, I am saying that these parents actually do have choices. It's just that they don't like those choices.

Sure, they have choices. Everyone has choices. We can all choose to homeschool. But now let's get back to reality and admit that the choices presented SUCK. And you're refusing to allow an alternative that would not suck.

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Anonymous wrote:Agree with others that holding up DCPS as a model is crazy.

Yes, Janney, Deal and Wilson have become good schools in the last 20 years but at what cost to the rest of the system. The disparity between the haves and have nots is growing. Look at the scores sometime. And that is BEFORE Parc Testing. And the difference between the resources at any given Ward 7 or 8 school compared to Ward 1 schools is shocking. Not long ago we took a few students from a Ward 8 school to a Ward 1 school for an event - on the way back they were discussing how nice the school was and one young man said, "I want live with the white people." I wanted to cry.

That is a very sad story. Thanks for sharing. Perhaps if MCPS parents are allows to donate to an aide in the classroom, more parents would stay in MCPS and would lobby for more funding and be more engaged generally in the overall administration of education in MCPS. As I see it now, lots of parents who would be great advocates for the system decide to just go the private route.

I think you just missed the whole point of the previous PP's post.

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone thing people in Bethesda/Potomac might start to de-camp to Fairfax County? FCPS seems to have less drama in the overall funding.

Less drama?

Due to years of chronic underfunding coupled with a decade of significant enrollment growth and increasing student needs, we will notbe able to sustain the current quality nor the full range of academic programming we currently offer our students. We have sought to protect the classroom to date, but with the scale of the FY 2017 shortfall, we will have to take a serious look at the programs that we must cut starting in the 2016-17 school year. These cuts will likely affect all current academic programming including limiting elective choices, reducing career and technical programs, impacting advanced offerings, and again raising class sizes at all levels. We must make these difficult choices by December 2015 because students begin their course selections in January 2016.

Since 2008, we have cut 2,175 positions and nearly a half-billion dollars from our budget affecting every school and department. We have fallen so far behind in teacher salaries that we are no longer competitive and are losing talented staff to neighboring school districts. Our teachers are the reason FCPS students excel and achieve. Losing our most experienced teachers will have a significant effect on student performance and will ultimately affect the reputation of FCPS.

http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/fairfax%20/2015/04/29/superintendent-garza-makes-statement-on-fairfax-co-budget/26565599/#

Anonymous wrote:Agree with others that holding up DCPS as a model is crazy.

Yes, Janney, Deal and Wilson have become good schools in the last 20 years but at what cost to the rest of the system. The disparity between the haves and have nots is growing. Look at the scores sometime. And that is BEFORE Parc Testing. And the difference between the resources at any given Ward 7 or 8 school compared to Ward 1 schools is shocking. Not long ago we took a few students from a Ward 8 school to a Ward 1 school for an event - on the way back they were discussing how nice the school was and one young man said, "I want live with the white people." I wanted to cry.

That is a very sad story. Thanks for sharing. Perhaps if MCPS parents are allows to donate to an aide in the classroom, more parents would stay in MCPS and would lobby for more funding and be more engaged generally in the overall administration of education in MCPS. As I see it now, lots of parents who would be great advocates for the system decide to just go the private route.

The problem with MCPS is the absolute lack of local control. It is way too big and all decisions are made by a school board made up of politicians who have no idea what goes on in the individual schools. I moved to MCPS from an area with local control of the schools and left MCPS to go to another area with local control. Nothing is perfect but the school board members in my district live in my town and their kids are either in or have gone through our schools. One downside is higher taxes. I sold my house in Montgomery County for $850 and bought a house here for $400 yet my property taxes went up by 40% (basically the same size house). I don't know what the answer is. Chicago Public Schools implemented local school councils. Maybe MCPS needs that for each cluster as well.

Does anyone thing people in Bethesda/Potomac might start to de-camp to Fairfax County? FCPS seems to have less drama in the overall funding.

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The schools in Bethesda have the same class size caps as every other school in MCPS.

But in practice MCPS explicitly maintains significantly smaller class sizes in Title I / Focus schools. That's the whole point of this post. I don't agree with the OP's suggestion of "buying" additional teachers via parent donations ala the Upper NW DCPS model. But I do think it's reasonable to question why it's considered OK to stuff 26 K students into a classroom in Bethesda but not elsewhere in the county. I'm all for closing the achievement gap. But there should be some baseline equity in the educational experiences provided to kids. That's precisely why parents shouldn't be allowed to fundraise for extra teachers; but equity shouldn't mean sabotaging the earliest years of elementary school for kids who live in wealthier zip codes with ridiculously large classes that have zero support.

Fine. The schools in Bethesda have the same class size caps as every other school in MCPS, except for K-3 class size caps in Title 1 and Focus schools.

Bethesda does not have a monopoly on large kindergarten classes in MCPS.

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02159.pdf
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02227.pdf
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02703.pdf
https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02511.pdf
http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/02207.pdf

Agree with others that holding up DCPS as a model is crazy.

Yes, Janney, Deal and Wilson have become good schools in the last 20 years but at what cost to the rest of the system. The disparity between the haves and have nots is growing. Look at the scores sometime. And that is BEFORE Parc Testing. And the difference between the resources at any given Ward 7 or 8 school compared to Ward 1 schools is shocking. Not long ago we took a few students from a Ward 8 school to a Ward 1 school for an event - on the way back they were discussing how nice the school was and one young man said, "I want live with the white people." I wanted to cry.

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I find this silly. WE DON'T HAVE A REAL PUBLIC SOLUTION! I'd love it if we did, but we don't. I advocate for it, and won't stop advocating for it, but we don't have it. WE could have a private/public solution in the interim, but we can't do that because "it's not fair". WHAT? It reminds me of the Vonnegut story, Harrison Bergeron. Is the fear that if the schools with rich parents get better, then the rich parents will stop trying to make the system as a whole better? I feel like we could solve that problem. Like, if you want to raise funds for extra aides/teachers at your school, you have to raise matching funds that go into the system as a whole. So, Bannockburn PTA can put $100k toward two new teachers' aides, but they have to put $100k in matching funds into the general fund.
Otherwise, you know what's going to happen over time? The rich Whitman parents will gradually move more kids to private. Because the class sizes aren't going to support the reputation of "good schools" for much longer.

That's not the reason, but yes, actually, if rich parents can buy more teachers for their children's schools, then they will have much less incentive to advocate for more teachers for other children's schools. After all, more teachers for other children's schools won't benefit their children, right?

And please remember -- you can put $100,000 towards any number of things in your children's schools. The ONLY thing you can't do with the $100,000 is buy more teachers.

Yes, I know we can put money toward other things. But nothing compensates for the class sizes, which suck. Having after school activities or an artist in residence is nice, but it's so marginal compared to the fact that my kid's teacher still doesn't have any idea how she learns and has no relationship with her. Believe it or not, there are "at risk" kids in these schools too, and if you just have too many kids with one teacher, then lots of kids get ignored.

+1. NP here. At our elementary in Bethesda, there is an impressive amount of funding for things like artist-in-residence etc. But the kids spend over 5 hours per day in their classroom with 1 teacher, and that is where the difference could be felt most. I visited my DS's classroom for parent visiting day last fall, and I was genuinely surprised at how unruly the kids seemed and how the teacher had a difficult time keeping just making herself heard.

Let's allow MCPS to donate funds for aides, as DCPS allow. My friends who send their kids to Horace Mann (in DCPS) seem very pleased, and don't much mind contributing say $2000 per year. It's a lot more affordable than spending over $22,000 per year on private school tuition. And perhaps it incentivizes some people to move to Montgomery County! (As it is, some people I know have moved from NW DC to Bethesda for the schools, and then are kind of disappointed about this inability to have an aide in the classroom. They see that you pay a lot in taxes, but that they don't get much in return. One new neighbor commented that there are a lot of needs in MoCo, and it seems to them like Bethesda/Potomac is slightly subsidizing the rest of the county. We're all liberals and are OK with that, but still would like to be able to contribute to funding aides in the classroom, since that is where kids spend the majority of their time each school day.)

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+1 Like OP, I live in Bethesda. I don't have quite the same level of concern about class size, and I am sympathetic to the principle of not allowing wealthier school clusters to buy more staff. But it does annoy me that, at least on DCUM, people love to rally around knocking the Bethesda schools down a peg. The kids are generally high-performing, so apparently they don't deserve any relief from some of the largest classrooms in the county. Bethesda is comparatively rich, so everyone seems to think it is OK that its schools are horribly overcrowded ("If you don't like it, move."). Or, Bethesda schools shouldn't be limited to people who live there, so let's bus more kids in or allow unmanaged development of high-density residences so more kids can benefit. I actually support more workforce housing in Bethesda, but it makes me bonkers that there's no money coming in to address the fact that Bethesda has some of the most overcrowded schools anywhere. Nobody thinks Bethesda needs any public resources, and yet the main things that are needed (expanded facilities, more staff) are the things that people in Bethesda are prohibited from contributing directly themselves.

The schools in Bethesda have the same class size caps as every other school in MCPS.

But in practice MCPS explicitly maintains significantly smaller class sizes in Title I / Focus schools. That's the whole point of this post. I don't agree with the OP's suggestion of "buying" additional teachers via parent donations ala the Upper NW DCPS model. But I do think it's reasonable to question why it's considered OK to stuff 26 K students into a classroom in Bethesda but not elsewhere in the county. I'm all for closing the achievement gap. But there should be some baseline equity in the educational experiences provided to kids. That's precisely why parents shouldn't be allowed to fundraise for extra teachers; but equity shouldn't mean sabotaging the earliest years of elementary school for kids who live in wealthier zip codes with ridiculously large classes that have zero support.

Anonymous wrote:
+1 Like OP, I live in Bethesda. I don't have quite the same level of concern about class size, and I am sympathetic to the principle of not allowing wealthier school clusters to buy more staff. But it does annoy me that, at least on DCUM, people love to rally around knocking the Bethesda schools down a peg. The kids are generally high-performing, so apparently they don't deserve any relief from some of the largest classrooms in the county. Bethesda is comparatively rich, so everyone seems to think it is OK that its schools are horribly overcrowded ("If you don't like it, move."). Or, Bethesda schools shouldn't be limited to people who live there, so let's bus more kids in or allow unmanaged development of high-density residences so more kids can benefit. I actually support more workforce housing in Bethesda, but it makes me bonkers that there's no money coming in to address the fact that Bethesda has some of the most overcrowded schools anywhere. Nobody thinks Bethesda needs any public resources, and yet the main things that are needed (expanded facilities, more staff) are the things that people in Bethesda are prohibited from contributing directly themselves.

The schools in Bethesda have the same class size caps as every other school in MCPS.