Anonymous wrote:Think of it this way: picking up the check on a date is the human male equivalent of bringing a nice stick, piece of grass or a shiny pebble in our beak to the current person towards whom our affections are directed.

Yes, assuming that the man and the woman are on equal footing in terms of age, wealth and income, the man should pick up the check on the first date. Then they can take turns. I do that with my women friends. We rarely split the bill. Forget that, it's too tedious. But if a much older and wealthier man suggests that you fly on his private plane to Paris, then he pays all.

Splitting the check is annoying. But I'd pick up the tab probably 1/3- 1/2 of the time when I was dating. But the whole you pay for you I'll pay for me is kind of like not admitting you are together.

In today's society of equality etc why does such an archaic idea persist ? Why do women have an expectation that the guy will pay? so hypocritical

Agree that we definitely look at things differently. I don't think any decent guy would invite a woman out for dinner or some activity and expect her to cover the bill.

I'm heading to a European country for a few months for work where I've read that its expected that couples split the bill. The women there supposedly prefer it that way, to include not wanting men to open doors. Talk about culture shock. I hold doors for people and give my seat up to older/pregnant women. My single GFs joke that their future husbands have to treat them better than I do (comes from having much younger siblings growing up).lol

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm 35, actively dating, and increasingly these days find that men don't pick up the check, at least men you meet online. There are exceptions, particularly men I've dated from European backgrounds, or aged 40+, but it seems that splitting the check, or at least alternating paying, is becoming the norm. I've always offered to split, but generally men accept it now, whereas they didn't 5 or 10 years ago.

90% of the men I've dated have been under 35, many under 30 (50%). Never split a bill or had a man expect that I pay. I also have never offered to split. Similar to another guy on this thread, I might pay once in awhile, invite the guy over for dinner, or share tickets I have and he doesn't have to pay (though he might still spring for a meal). But this probably amounts to 20% over the course of my life. I haven't actually paid for a date in years and I was in a relationship then. Perhaps its also the income disparity. I make well under 80K and most guys have had higher earnings, plus I'm a mom. My Big Law friend has had a different experience.

I'm the poster you're quoting, and I suppose in some ways I am more similar to your Big Law friend. I'm not in Big Law (and certainly not earning those kinds of dollars) but I do make more than you say you do, and I don't have any children, so perhaps that is a factor? I'm perceived to have more disposable income than you do? My other question is, when you say you've never offered to split a bill - how do you do that - I'm genuinely curious. Do you not offer even if you know you aren't interested, so there won't be a second date? It's like a reflex with me, bill arrives, my wallet get pulled out, even if they have reached for the check. The ones who want to pay wave me off, but I honestly don't think I couldn't offer.

It's never occurred to me that I should offer. Really, it hasn't. It's akin to dismissing a compliment someone gives me. I believe that men enjoy doing nice things for women, especially women they're interested in. Pulling out my wallet when a guy is courting me just seems like a masculine move where I'm pushing the relationship into friend zone. Also, my guy friends typically don't care for it either. I remember telling a guy friend that I wanted to buy a cute guy in a bar a drink as a compliment and was discouraged. Said it changes the dynamics and not in a good way. I was encouraged to flirt or start up a conversation but buying a drink was considered a strong move. By the way, I haven't had any dates I can think of where I've thought "Definitely not going out with him again."

It doesn't kill things sexually for you when you're going Dutch? I can't think of a single guy where we could go 50/50 on dates and sustain sexual attraction over the longterm. Seems like we'd fall into friend zone.lol

We just think about things really differently. I don't go on the date assuming the man will pay, so I'm not 'rejecting' his offer/compliment, especially if he doesn't make one. Simply reaching for a bill, to me, is not offering to pay it - it's what you have to do in order to leave if you don't want to do a dine-and-dash. Someone has to do it. I don't assume he wants to pay for me just because he reached for it first. If he actually indicated he wanted to pay and then I insisted, then I would agree with what you're saying. I also believe that men want to spend time with people they are interested in, not necessarily all men want to pay their way.

As for sustaining sexual attraction, I was speaking more about dating (in the vein of the thread "how long does the man pick up the check" implying that at some point it will stop) than about being in an established relationship, so I guess, no it doesn't kill it for me. If anything, the man paying on dates happens more in the early stages of dating, and by the time there's a "longterm" things are divided more equitably even if he did foot the bill initially.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Male perspective;
Cultural norm is (or was) that the man picks up the check. Always during the dating phase, except special rare occasion (man's birthday or equivalent).

No, the woman does NOT reciprocate with sex: there is no implicit quid pro quo. Friendship or emotional intimacy are't an exchange of things of value, sex shouldn't be either.

It's just a matter of custom: woman insists on paying half, it sends the message to a man "I don't want you thinking I owe you something" -- for whatever reason, there is a level of discomfort. Like holding the door or pulling out the chair. Doesn't imply the woman is helpless, it's a convention of courteous behavior.

It's a convention born of inequality. Nothing inherently wrong in these gestures if there was no historical context behind them, but - given their history - they are laden with all kinds of sexist baggage.

Fortunately, I have never felt oppressed in my previous relationships with men, so it works for me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm 35, actively dating, and increasingly these days find that men don't pick up the check, at least men you meet online. There are exceptions, particularly men I've dated from European backgrounds, or aged 40+, but it seems that splitting the check, or at least alternating paying, is becoming the norm. I've always offered to split, but generally men accept it now, whereas they didn't 5 or 10 years ago.

90% of the men I've dated have been under 35, many under 30 (50%). Never split a bill or had a man expect that I pay. I also have never offered to split. Similar to another guy on this thread, I might pay once in awhile, invite the guy over for dinner, or share tickets I have and he doesn't have to pay (though he might still spring for a meal). But this probably amounts to 20% over the course of my life. I haven't actually paid for a date in years and I was in a relationship then. Perhaps its also the income disparity. I make well under 80K and most guys have had higher earnings, plus I'm a mom. My Big Law friend has had a different experience.

I'm the poster you're quoting, and I suppose in some ways I am more similar to your Big Law friend. I'm not in Big Law (and certainly not earning those kinds of dollars) but I do make more than you say you do, and I don't have any children, so perhaps that is a factor? I'm perceived to have more disposable income than you do? My other question is, when you say you've never offered to split a bill - how do you do that - I'm genuinely curious. Do you not offer even if you know you aren't interested, so there won't be a second date? It's like a reflex with me, bill arrives, my wallet get pulled out, even if they have reached for the check. The ones who want to pay wave me off, but I honestly don't think I couldn't offer.

It's never occurred to me that I should offer. Really, it hasn't. It's akin to dismissing a compliment someone gives me. I believe that men enjoy doing nice things for women, especially women they're interested in. Pulling out my wallet when a guy is courting me just seems like a masculine move where I'm pushing the relationship into friend zone. Also, my guy friends typically don't care for it either. I remember telling a guy friend that I wanted to buy a cute guy in a bar a drink as a compliment and was discouraged. Said it changes the dynamics and not in a good way. I was encouraged to flirt or start up a conversation but buying a drink was considered a strong move. By the way, I haven't had any dates I can think of where I've thought "Definitely not going out with him again."

It doesn't kill things sexually for you when you're going Dutch? I can't think of a single guy where we could go 50/50 on dates and sustain sexual attraction over the longterm. Seems like we'd fall into friend zone.lol

Anonymous wrote:Isn't all of this out of the biological aspects of sex? Men have to be the pursuers as they are the giver and women the receiver in the actual biological sexual act? This has to be the reason why men are the pursuers in the courtship process, right?

Doubt it. Does the silverback gorilla pursue and woo the females? Or is it enough that he can and sometimes does beat the shit out of the other males in the group?

I've been married to dh for 2 yes, together for 4.5 yrs. He STILL picks up the check every time! Obviously I contribute in other ways... Not just sex... I take care of other bills.

Isn't all of this out of the biological aspects of sex? Men have to be the pursuers as they are the giver and women the receiver in the actual biological sexual act? This has to be the reason why men are the pursuers in the courtship process, right?

Anonymous wrote:Male perspective;
Cultural norm is (or was) that the man picks up the check. Always during the dating phase, except special rare occasion (man's birthday or equivalent).

No, the woman does NOT reciprocate with sex: there is no implicit quid pro quo. Friendship or emotional intimacy are't an exchange of things of value, sex shouldn't be either.

It's just a matter of custom: woman insists on paying half, it sends the message to a man "I don't want you thinking I owe you something" -- for whatever reason, there is a level of discomfort. Like holding the door or pulling out the chair. Doesn't imply the woman is helpless, it's a convention of courteous behavior.

It's a convention born of inequality. Nothing inherently wrong in these gestures if there was no historical context behind them, but - given their history - they are laden with all kinds of sexist baggage.

Think of it this way: picking up the check on a date is the human male equivalent of bringing a nice stick, piece of grass or a shiny pebble in our beak to the current person towards whom our affections are directed.

Anonymous wrote:Male perspective;
Cultural norm is (or was) that the man picks up the check. Always during the dating phase, except special rare occasion (man's birthday or equivalent).

No, the woman does NOT reciprocate with sex: there is no implicit quid pro quo. Friendship or emotional intimacy are't an exchange of things of value, sex shouldn't be either.

It's just a matter of custom: woman insists on paying half, it sends the message to a man "I don't want you thinking I owe you something" -- for whatever reason, there is a level of discomfort. Like holding the door or pulling out the chair. Doesn't imply the woman is helpless, it's a convention of courteous behavior.

Woman here - OK, so how do you define "insists on paying half?" If she pulls out her wallet after you've pulled out yours, do you wave it away? Does she pull out her wallet on subsequent dates and you continue to wave it away?

Male perspective;
Cultural norm is (or was) that the man picks up the check. Always during the dating phase, except special rare occasion (man's birthday or equivalent).

No, the woman does NOT reciprocate with sex: there is no implicit quid pro quo. Friendship or emotional intimacy are't an exchange of things of value, sex shouldn't be either.

It's just a matter of custom: woman insists on paying half, it sends the message to a man "I don't want you thinking I owe you something" -- for whatever reason, there is a level of discomfort. Like holding the door or pulling out the chair. Doesn't imply the woman is helpless, it's a convention of courteous behavior.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm 35, actively dating, and increasingly these days find that men don't pick up the check, at least men you meet online. There are exceptions, particularly men I've dated from European backgrounds, or aged 40+, but it seems that splitting the check, or at least alternating paying, is becoming the norm. I've always offered to split, but generally men accept it now, whereas they didn't 5 or 10 years ago.

90% of the men I've dated have been under 35, many under 30 (50%). Never split a bill or had a man expect that I pay. I also have never offered to split. Similar to another guy on this thread, I might pay once in awhile, invite the guy over for dinner, or share tickets I have and he doesn't have to pay (though he might still spring for a meal). But this probably amounts to 20% over the course of my life. I haven't actually paid for a date in years and I was in a relationship then. Perhaps its also the income disparity. I make well under 80K and most guys have had higher earnings, plus I'm a mom. My Big Law friend has had a different experience.

I'm the poster you're quoting, and I suppose in some ways I am more similar to your Big Law friend. I'm not in Big Law (and certainly not earning those kinds of dollars) but I do make more than you say you do, and I don't have any children, so perhaps that is a factor? I'm perceived to have more disposable income than you do? My other question is, when you say you've never offered to split a bill - how do you do that - I'm genuinely curious. Do you not offer even if you know you aren't interested, so there won't be a second date? It's like a reflex with me, bill arrives, my wallet get pulled out, even if they have reached for the check. The ones who want to pay wave me off, but I honestly don't think I couldn't offer.