Anonymous
03/29/2015 11:55
Subject: Brutal Admissions Year!
I think the "one" poster's point appears to be some variation on this (these are not my beliefs, by the way):
The college process is broken.
By which I mean,
Isn't it a real shame that so many admissions spots currently go to applicants -- particularly under-represented minorities and international students -- some number of whom I do not think are deserving or meritorious, because I believe that they are given special advantages in the admissions process.
(My editorializing:
An immigrant student working throughout high school in order to help support their family, will probably not have as high a gpa, and may indeed have poorer test scores as they have little time and guidance to prepare for standardized test.
But who are we to say that they do not have as meritorious a story - in their own way- as the applicant who studied as a chocolatier's apprentice -- whose unique background is also rightly valued.)
Getting back to the summary (again, not my beliefs)
Yes, it is such a shame that so many of those admissions spots are given away because that increases the pressure on all the other students, who feel that they can only get into these schools if they can achieve perfection in terms of taking rigorous class loads, earning perfect grades in those classes, and attaining near-perfect standardized test scores to be admitted.
So, we need to "change the system".
By which the "one" poster might - and I say only might - mean this,
Stop giving admissions to other applicants because that stresses out "our" applicants who work themselves into a breakdown to attain the right stats for college, and even then might fail.
(Back to my editorializing. Since the problem is too much stress on students, one can:
Opt out of the system.
In other words, tell your child that it is not worth a sacrifice of their physical or mental health to take a full slate of Honors and Advanced classes. Advise them to push themselves in those areas they genuinely want to study, and to take the regular courses in everything else.
Emphasize that having them attend a smaller, less well-known college, or the less prestigious, third state option, is just fine by you.
OR, change the system,
By which I suppose might mean that we should get universities to rely less and less on GPA and test scores, and more on other factors (that would certainly lessen the stress on students trying to achieve academic perfection).
Or perhaps, rely only on GPA and test scores, and do away with all the extracurricular pressures (but that would still lead to academically stressed students, and less well-rounded applicants).
Since the OP wants to discuss the options, let's discuss the options. OP, what are your solutions to this "problem"?
The college process is broken.
By which I mean,
Isn't it a real shame that so many admissions spots currently go to applicants -- particularly under-represented minorities and international students -- some number of whom I do not think are deserving or meritorious, because I believe that they are given special advantages in the admissions process.
(My editorializing:
An immigrant student working throughout high school in order to help support their family, will probably not have as high a gpa, and may indeed have poorer test scores as they have little time and guidance to prepare for standardized test.
But who are we to say that they do not have as meritorious a story - in their own way- as the applicant who studied as a chocolatier's apprentice -- whose unique background is also rightly valued.)
Getting back to the summary (again, not my beliefs)
Yes, it is such a shame that so many of those admissions spots are given away because that increases the pressure on all the other students, who feel that they can only get into these schools if they can achieve perfection in terms of taking rigorous class loads, earning perfect grades in those classes, and attaining near-perfect standardized test scores to be admitted.
So, we need to "change the system".
By which the "one" poster might - and I say only might - mean this,
Stop giving admissions to other applicants because that stresses out "our" applicants who work themselves into a breakdown to attain the right stats for college, and even then might fail.
(Back to my editorializing. Since the problem is too much stress on students, one can:
Opt out of the system.
In other words, tell your child that it is not worth a sacrifice of their physical or mental health to take a full slate of Honors and Advanced classes. Advise them to push themselves in those areas they genuinely want to study, and to take the regular courses in everything else.
Emphasize that having them attend a smaller, less well-known college, or the less prestigious, third state option, is just fine by you.
OR, change the system,
By which I suppose might mean that we should get universities to rely less and less on GPA and test scores, and more on other factors (that would certainly lessen the stress on students trying to achieve academic perfection).
Or perhaps, rely only on GPA and test scores, and do away with all the extracurricular pressures (but that would still lead to academically stressed students, and less well-rounded applicants).
Since the OP wants to discuss the options, let's discuss the options. OP, what are your solutions to this "problem"?
Anonymous
03/29/2015 11:43
Subject: Brutal Admissions Year!
What I find shocking is how hard it is for a good student to get into state universities--not talking UVA and W&M but good all-around schools like JMU and Va Tech that used to be a nice middle-class admissions safety net.
Anonymous
03/29/2015 11:38
Subject: Brutal Admissions Year!
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Minorities are still a small percentage of any admitting class. It is such a white privilege thing to blame the brown kids when your kid didn't get into an elite school.
Don't support white whining, but take a look at statistics before making a claim:
Harvard - 10% Hispanic, 19% Asian, 7% AA, 7% bi-racial, 11% Intl and 44% White
Yale - 11% Hispanic, 17% Asian, 7% AA, 6% bi-racial, 10% Intl and 47% White
Princeton - 8% Hispanic, 21% Asian, 8% AA, 4% bi-racial, 11% Intl and 46% White
Stanford - 16% Hispanic, 20% Asian, 1% American Indian, 6% AA, 11% bi-racial, 8% Intl and 38% White
So no, minorities are not a small percentage of any admitting class. Time to say something new.
It is an Asian privilege thing to blame the white parents for blaming the brown kids when neither of their kids got into an elite school.
Anonymous
03/29/2015 10:54
Subject: Re:Brutal Admissions Year!
[quote=Anonymous
Kids applied to many schools because they want to make sure they get to one of them. It does not mean they want to brag that how many they get acceptance. Everyone knows every kid can go to only one school. If kids got accepted into more than one schools, it does not mean kids want to brag or improve their self-esteem or "me me me". Your son applied to seven schools and what happen if all seven of them accepted him. Is this meant your son wants to brag? Or is your son being "me me me"?
Exactly. This is my first child applying, so I don't have any reference points. DD has applied to 14 schools. Accepted at 9, rejected at 3, waitlisted at 1, waiting to hear from one. Didn't get any reaches so far, in spite of being an URM female, full pay, great SATs.
Kids applied to many schools because they want to make sure they get to one of them. It does not mean they want to brag that how many they get acceptance. Everyone knows every kid can go to only one school. If kids got accepted into more than one schools, it does not mean kids want to brag or improve their self-esteem or "me me me". Your son applied to seven schools and what happen if all seven of them accepted him. Is this meant your son wants to brag? Or is your son being "me me me"?
As full pay, we also need to check out merit aid. The NPC may say we can pay 63k a year, but that is really tight especially given future cost increases, and the fact that DCTAG runs out of money some years. The merit money is all over the place, from full tuition to 20% tuition
Anonymous
03/29/2015 10:46
Subject: Re:Brutal Admissions Year!
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My son got into just one college out of the seven where he applied. It is a great school especially for what he wishes to major and he got some financial assistance as well.
He got turned down by every other school or wait-listed. But within the scheme of things it really does not matter unless one is wanting to brag about the number of acceptances received. After all, he can only go to one school when the time comes.
Keep a perspective people ......... for your own sake and, more importantly, for your children's self-esteem.
WTF, are you trying to prove?
And again, this is a 'me me me' approach to a much broader issue.
Kids applied to many schools because they want to make sure they get to one of them. It does not mean they want to brag that how many they get acceptance. Everyone knows every kid can go to only one school. If kids got accepted into more than one schools, it does not mean kids want to brag or improve their self-esteem or "me me me". Your son applied to seven schools and what happen if all seven of them accepted him. Is this meant your son wants to brag? Or is your son being "me me me"?
Anonymous
03/29/2015 09:42
Subject: Re:Brutal Admissions Year!
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My son got into just one college out of the seven where he applied. It is a great school especially for what he wishes to major and he got some financial assistance as well.
He got turned down by every other school or wait-listed. But within the scheme of things it really does not matter unless one is wanting to brag about the number of acceptances received. After all, he can only go to one school when the time comes.
Keep a perspective people ......... for your own sake and, more importantly, for your children's self-esteem.
WTF, are you trying to prove?
And again, this is a 'me me me' approach to a much broader issue.
What broader issue? Yes, we all know that there are a lot of applicants for the same top schools whether private or public. We all know that the competition is incredible. We know that it ends up being a bit of a crap-shoot where the decisions made are not entirely rational.
But you basically need for your kid to get into one acceptable college. This is not some sort of competition to see who gets the most acceptances.
Read the WSJ op-ed article I posted. She captures the issues in a humorous way, from the teenager point of view.
I don't know why you feel I need my kid to get into one 'acceptable college', when I've stated numerous times that my kid has gotten into three (now four) 'acceptable' colleges, even to the likes of the DCUM crowd.MY idea of an 'acceptable' college, is the one where a kid is happiest - I really don't give a crap about status. Never have.
What I DO give a crap about is broken processes. Going to visit colleges has been eye-opening. Instead of admissions officers talking about what their college can offer my kid (after all, we parents are paying them - and a lot!), it was all about their reputations, their social standings, their diversity programs, etc. That led to me doing some research and reading. Do some yourself - it's positively eye-opening.
My initial comment was not directed at you and I have read the WSJ article.
I think the whole process being the pressure cooker that it is today is in large measure because parents and others involved in the admissions process have made it a rat race of sorts. Even the whole urgency of getting into an Ivy is insane - and I went to one of the Ivies.
A lot of the pressure comes from parents even though they deny it.
Anonymous
03/29/2015 09:32
Subject: Brutal Admissions Year!
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I fully understand that. To me, the main goal isn't balancing a class racially - this isn't a TV commercial or magazine spread. The main goal should be to make sure that kids who get into the school, 'fit' the school and will do well there. Instead the focus is on increasing their own climb up some silly artificial ranking system by messing with how they admit kids.Anonymous wrote:Yea, please be aware that the top schools are not awash in diversity. 5-8% African American is the norm for the top schools.
To me, the worst thing that can happen is admitting a student because they are minority because it increases your rankings, then not supporting those kids, so they are destined to fail, or worse, accepting them, then pushing them through by being soft on grading (or in the case of athletics, making up classes like they did at UNC). What a horrible thing to do to a kid!
And why the fuck are you assuming that the kids of color are being accepted only for their race and then can't hack it? And that they need extra support? You really think that these kids can't handle the course load and need hand holding simply because they're minorities? That there are no kids of color who are as smart and capable as the white kids who were admitted alongside them? What the fuck is wrong with you?
So you found this thread too, did you? Good Lord, you are tiresome!
Why am I assuming this? I'm not. It's been a problem in the past in universities and colleges. The problem isn't that they are minorities, the problem is some are admitted simply BECAUSE they are minorities, even if their grades and scores show they they should not be. There are also some minorities that are admitted because their grades and scores show they ARE up to the task and that's as it should be.
When diversity is sought after just for diversity's sake, it is the individual that pays the price. If the problem is there is lack of qualified minorities, college is not the place to try and solve that. By then it's too late. You need to hit it hard at a much lower level.
Where is your evidence that this happening?
From Princeton EDU, regarding colleges:
"Being African American instead of white is worth an average of 230 additional SAT points on a 1600-point scale"
"Hispanic applicants gain the equivalent of 185 points"
"Coming from an Asian background, however, is comparable to the loss of 50 SAT points."
There are many other articles supporting this, FWIW, they also apply points to legacies and athletes, the former I disagree with, the latter I DO agree with because athletes bring something to the table via their talent.
Anonymous
03/29/2015 09:16
Subject: Brutal Admissions Year!
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I fully understand that. To me, the main goal isn't balancing a class racially - this isn't a TV commercial or magazine spread. The main goal should be to make sure that kids who get into the school, 'fit' the school and will do well there. Instead the focus is on increasing their own climb up some silly artificial ranking system by messing with how they admit kids.Anonymous wrote:Yea, please be aware that the top schools are not awash in diversity. 5-8% African American is the norm for the top schools.
To me, the worst thing that can happen is admitting a student because they are minority because it increases your rankings, then not supporting those kids, so they are destined to fail, or worse, accepting them, then pushing them through by being soft on grading (or in the case of athletics, making up classes like they did at UNC). What a horrible thing to do to a kid!
And why the fuck are you assuming that the kids of color are being accepted only for their race and then can't hack it? And that they need extra support? You really think that these kids can't handle the course load and need hand holding simply because they're minorities? That there are no kids of color who are as smart and capable as the white kids who were admitted alongside them? What the fuck is wrong with you?
So you found this thread too, did you? Good Lord, you are tiresome!
Why am I assuming this? I'm not. It's been a problem in the past in universities and colleges. The problem isn't that they are minorities, the problem is some are admitted simply BECAUSE they are minorities, even if their grades and scores show they they should not be. There are also some minorities that are admitted because their grades and scores show they ARE up to the task and that's as it should be.
When diversity is sought after just for diversity's sake, it is the individual that pays the price. If the problem is there is lack of qualified minorities, college is not the place to try and solve that. By then it's too late. You need to hit it hard at a much lower level.
Where is your evidence that this happening?
Anonymous
03/29/2015 09:04
Subject: Re:Brutal Admissions Year!
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My son got into just one college out of the seven where he applied. It is a great school especially for what he wishes to major and he got some financial assistance as well.
He got turned down by every other school or wait-listed. But within the scheme of things it really does not matter unless one is wanting to brag about the number of acceptances received. After all, he can only go to one school when the time comes.
Keep a perspective people ......... for your own sake and, more importantly, for your children's self-esteem.
WTF, are you trying to prove?
And again, this is a 'me me me' approach to a much broader issue.
What broader issue? Yes, we all know that there are a lot of applicants for the same top schools whether private or public. We all know that the competition is incredible. We know that it ends up being a bit of a crap-shoot where the decisions made are not entirely rational.
But you basically need for your kid to get into one acceptable college. This is not some sort of competition to see who gets the most acceptances.
Read the WSJ op-ed article I posted. She captures the issues in a humorous way, from the teenager point of view.
I don't know why you feel I need my kid to get into one 'acceptable college', when I've stated numerous times that my kid has gotten into three (now four) 'acceptable' colleges, even to the likes of the DCUM crowd.
MY idea of an 'acceptable' college, is the one where a kid is happiest - I really don't give a crap about status. Never have.
What I DO give a crap about is broken processes. Going to visit colleges has been eye-opening. Instead of admissions officers talking about what their college can offer my kid (after all, we parents are paying them - and a lot!), it was all about their reputations, their social standings, their diversity programs, etc. That led to me doing some research and reading. Do some yourself - it's positively eye-opening.
Anonymous
03/29/2015 08:24
Subject: Brutal Admissions Year!
Anonymous wrote:Minorities are still a small percentage of any admitting class. It is such a white privilege thing to blame the brown kids when your kid didn't get into an elite school.
Don't support white whining, but take a look at statistics before making a claim:
Harvard - 10% Hispanic, 19% Asian, 7% AA, 7% bi-racial, 11% Intl and 44% White
Yale - 11% Hispanic, 17% Asian, 7% AA, 6% bi-racial, 10% Intl and 47% White
Princeton - 8% Hispanic, 21% Asian, 8% AA, 4% bi-racial, 11% Intl and 46% White
Stanford - 16% Hispanic, 20% Asian, 1% American Indian, 6% AA, 11% bi-racial, 8% Intl and 38% White
So no, minorities are not a small percentage of any admitting class. Time to say something new.
Anonymous
03/29/2015 08:22
Subject: Re:Brutal Admissions Year!
^^I should say not rational to us.
Anonymous
03/29/2015 08:21
Subject: Re:Brutal Admissions Year!
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My son got into just one college out of the seven where he applied. It is a great school especially for what he wishes to major and he got some financial assistance as well.
He got turned down by every other school or wait-listed. But within the scheme of things it really does not matter unless one is wanting to brag about the number of acceptances received. After all, he can only go to one school when the time comes.
Keep a perspective people ......... for your own sake and, more importantly, for your children's self-esteem.
WTF, are you trying to prove?
And again, this is a 'me me me' approach to a much broader issue.
What broader issue? Yes, we all know that there are a lot of applicants for the same top schools whether private or public. We all know that the competition is incredible. We know that it ends up being a bit of a crap-shoot where the decisions made are not entirely rational.
But you basically need for your kid to get into one acceptable college. This is not some sort of competition to see who gets the most acceptances.
Anonymous
03/29/2015 08:17
Subject: Brutal Admissions Year!
To the OP (and others who complain about the system/process):
You have opted to participate in this nonsense. You could have scaled back the pressure you put on your kid by aiming for a good state university. And if he couldn't get in initially, then he could do a semester at CC and transfer in.
And to those of you who turned down free rides at excellent state schools like UMCP to pay $50-60k at other state schools or private colleges who rank comparably (or sometimes slightly worse), I truly think you are crazy. What are you teaching your kid when you let them turn down a full ride at UMCP and are forced to pay $50k+ for a comparable school that is slightly smaller (that's the typical justification I hear from these parents) because the kid would prefer that school? And the parents who allow their kids to take out loans in that scenario are the worst.
You have opted to participate in this nonsense. You could have scaled back the pressure you put on your kid by aiming for a good state university. And if he couldn't get in initially, then he could do a semester at CC and transfer in.
And to those of you who turned down free rides at excellent state schools like UMCP to pay $50-60k at other state schools or private colleges who rank comparably (or sometimes slightly worse), I truly think you are crazy. What are you teaching your kid when you let them turn down a full ride at UMCP and are forced to pay $50k+ for a comparable school that is slightly smaller (that's the typical justification I hear from these parents) because the kid would prefer that school? And the parents who allow their kids to take out loans in that scenario are the worst.
Anonymous
03/29/2015 08:15
Subject: Brutal Admissions Year!
Anonymous wrote:I am seeing that even as schools claim to be holistic in their decisions, they seem to be more and more driven by numbers. There are just too many applications and no other way to differentiate between kids with over inflated GPAs. Class rank means so much more than GPA and a 2100 SAT isn't a big deal anymore.
Agreed. Which tells me there is something very wrong with the process itself. I think it goes beyond number of applications.
Anonymous
03/29/2015 08:14
Subject: Re:Brutal Admissions Year!
Anonymous wrote:My son got into just one college out of the seven where he applied. It is a great school especially for what he wishes to major and he got some financial assistance as well.
He got turned down by every other school or wait-listed. But within the scheme of things it really does not matter unless one is wanting to brag about the number of acceptances received. After all, he can only go to one school when the time comes.
Keep a perspective people ......... for your own sake and, more importantly, for your children's self-esteem.
WTF, are you trying to prove?
And again, this is a 'me me me' approach to a much broader issue.